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Dementia and spousal rape

Lutherf

Lutherf

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In an Iowa courtroom, an astonishing case of sex and Alzheimer’s - The Washington Post

To cut a long story short, a widow and widower, both in their 70's, meet and marry. They get along great and all the evidence points to a picture perfect marriage. She gets dementia and needs constant care. He resists moving her into a home but eventually agrees. Her daughters make the determination that she is no longer capable of consenting to sex. He figures that she's his wife and never said no before so he sees her in the home and they have sex. Soon after she dies and the daughters have him arrested.

I wonder if the kids would have made that same decision if it was her first husband (presumably their father)?
 
Lutherf said:
In an Iowa courtroom, an astonishing case of sex and Alzheimer’s - The Washington Post

To cut a long story short, a widow and widower, both in their 70's, meet and marry. They get along great and all the evidence points to a picture perfect marriage. She gets dementia and needs constant care. He resists moving her into a home but eventually agrees. Her daughters make the determination that she is no longer capable of consenting to sex. He figures that she's his wife and never said no before so he sees her in the home and they have sex. Soon after she dies and the daughters have him arrested.

I wonder if the kids would have made that same decision if it was her first husband (presumably their father)?
Click to expand...

Interesting ethical question raised by this.

On the other, if it was a fellow resident who was compos mentis who she 'consented' to I'd agree with the kids quite readily.
 
Very tough one. I think it would depend just how "far gone" she is. I can imagine a woman who isn't quite competent enough to handle her own finances and personal affairs but still knows when she want to have sex, or eat, or drink.

However, if she doesn't even know what is going on around her then it would be seriously messed up to use her for sex.
 
The case sucks. It presumes that she did not enjoy the sex. As for consent, unless it can shown it had ever been withdrawn then he had it. Is there any marriage where both of the couple always ask "may I have sex with you?" first?
Unless her consent had been withdrawn while she was competent, it remained.

She also not competent to consent to be put in the home.

So unless a court order put her in that facility and was appointed an attorney for that trial, why aren't the daughters and the home on trial for kidnapping and illegal imprisonment? If she lacked the mental ability to consent to sex, she lacked the mental ability to be put in and keep in a facility (making money off her).
 
This also is political retaliation run amuck. How do you deal with a political enemy? Put them on trial for rape.

"Friends and family say that Donna Lou and Henry Rayhons, a member of the Iowa House of Representatives from 1997 until this year."
 
Lutherf said:
I wonder if the kids would have made that same decision if it was her first husband (presumably their father)?
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Check the will. I bet the daughters weren't in it.
 
A conviction certainly sets up the facility for a clearly winning lawsuit of failure to protect and properly care for her.
 
I've had a good bit of experience with dementia and, generally speaking, the desire to be intimate doesn't go away. One of the problems with that, however, is that it isn't always clear if the patient really knows who they are dealing with. They generally recognize loved ones but sometimes the nature of the relationship can get scrambled. In a case like this I figure that it's probably better that she was intimate with her husband than with someone she imagined was her husband.
 
It would appear the Iowa prosecutor has ruled it is criminal for people with dementia to have sex. Seems rather creepy actually.
 
The daughter (from the wife's first marriage) was feuding with the care center, the rest of the family and the husband. She's at the heart of this. A dick move.
 
Unless it can be shown that she ever withdrew consent, this is ridiculous.
 
Lutherf said:
In an Iowa courtroom, an astonishing case of sex and Alzheimer’s - The Washington Post

To cut a long story short, a widow and widower, both in their 70's, meet and marry. They get along great and all the evidence points to a picture perfect marriage. She gets dementia and needs constant care. He resists moving her into a home but eventually agrees. Her daughters make the determination that she is no longer capable of consenting to sex. He figures that she's his wife and never said no before so he sees her in the home and they have sex. Soon after she dies and the daughters have him arrested.

I wonder if the kids would have made that same decision if it was her first husband (presumably their father)?
Click to expand...

I'm curious about a number of things:

1. Who had care for the woman - the husband or the daughters?

2. Do the daughters have medical training to make a "determination" about the mother's state of mind and capacity to consent?

3. What do the facility's doctors say about the capacity of the mother prior to her death? Seems odd to me that the husband could enter a facility and have sex with his wife without the facility's employees knowing about it.

I'm guessing money is involved someway, somehow, and the marriage of their mother in her 70s was not approved by the daughters to begin with. All around, it's ugly and I'm pleased that the mother died and likely didn't suffer from her daughters' actions against the man she presumably loved.
 
CanadaJohn said:
I'm curious about a number of things:

1. Who had care for the woman - the husband or the daughters?

2. Do the daughters have medical training to make a "determination" about the mother's state of mind and capacity to consent?

3. What do the facility's doctors say about the capacity of the mother prior to her death? Seems odd to me that the husband could enter a facility and have sex with his wife without the facility's employees knowing about it.

I'm guessing money is involved someway, somehow, and the marriage of their mother in her 70s was not approved by the daughters to begin with. All around, it's ugly and I'm pleased that the mother died and likely didn't suffer from her daughters' actions against the man she presumably loved.
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It's in the article:

On March 29, Donna was moved to Concord Care Center in Garner, Iowa, a five-minute drive from her home with Rayhons. Rayhons reportedly resisted the move and clashed with Donna’s daughters — both from her first marriage — over how she should be cared for at the facility.

In May, Dunshee and Donna’s other daughter, Suzan Brunes, met with Concord staff and drew up a care plan for Donna, according to a state affidavit. At the meeting, the women and doctors concluded that Donna was no longer able to consent to sex, a fact Rayhons was informed of.
Click to expand...

After moving her away from the new husband the daughters put together a care plan to end the sex part altogether.
 
Lutherf said:
In an Iowa courtroom, an astonishing case of sex and Alzheimer’s - The Washington Post

To cut a long story short, a widow and widower, both in their 70's, meet and marry. They get along great and all the evidence points to a picture perfect marriage. She gets dementia and needs constant care. He resists moving her into a home but eventually agrees. Her daughters make the determination that she is no longer capable of consenting to sex. He figures that she's his wife and never said no before so he sees her in the home and they have sex. Soon after she dies and the daughters have him arrested.

I wonder if the kids would have made that same decision if it was her first husband (presumably their father)?
Click to expand...



Are the children exert enough to make that determination?

I would suggest that in a sane world, that would have to carry a medical opinion.

Then there is the question of legal custody, who had the responsibility for care. I know from first hand experience that AZ patients lose who it is that is visiting, and see can see loved ones as a threat. In those situations a decision has to be made whether those visits can continue, as hurtful as that is to the loved one. Where were those care givers here?
 
clownboy said:
It's in the article:



After moving her away from the new husband the daughters put together a care plan to end the sex part altogether.
Click to expand...

Seems odd that a facility would enter into an agreement for care of a woman that did not include the wishes of the woman's husband. There has to be a lot more to the story.
 
clownboy said:
It's in the article:



After moving her away from the new husband the daughters put together a care plan to end the sex part altogether.
Click to expand...

I'm reading the Bloomberg article on this - Can a Wife With Dementia Say Yes to Sex? - Bloomberg - and it seems that two of the daughters took it upon themselves to split the couple up. The moved their mother while her husband was out of town and he came home to an empty house. They then decided that they didn't like him taking her out of the care home and put a stop to that. Finally they decided to put a stop to to the sex.

I don't know all the facts of this case and haven't heard the daughter's side of things but from what I've read.......to say I'm disgusted by their behavior would be a serious understatement.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Are the children exert enough to make that determination?

I would suggest that in a sane world, that would have to carry a medical opinion.

Then there is the question of legal custody, who had the responsibility for care. I know from first hand experience that AZ patients lose who it is that is visiting, and see can see loved ones as a threat. In those situations a decision has to be made whether those visits can continue, as hurtful as that is to the loved one. Where were those care givers here?
Click to expand...

They are being set up for a HUGE lawsuit by taking sides with the daughters, who will be able to turn around and sue the facility if the conviction happens for failure to protect their mother from being raped. Since the facility joined with the daughters if there is a conviction that is exactly what I hope happens.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Are the children exert enough to make that determination?

I would suggest that in a sane world, that would have to carry a medical opinion.

Then there is the question of legal custody, who had the responsibility for care. I know from first hand experience that AZ patients lose who it is that is visiting, and see can see loved ones as a threat. In those situations a decision has to be made whether those visits can continue, as hurtful as that is to the loved one. Where were those care givers here?
Click to expand...

If you read the Bloomberg article I linked in a previous post it goes into a lot more detail.
 
Lutherf said:
I'm reading the Bloomberg article on this - Can a Wife With Dementia Say Yes to Sex? - Bloomberg - and it seems that two of the daughters took it upon themselves to split the couple up. The moved their mother while her husband was out of town and he came home to an empty house. They then decided that they didn't like him taking her out of the care home and put a stop to that. Finally they decided to put a stop to to the sex.

I don't know all the facts of this case and haven't heard the daughter's side of things but from what I've read.......to say I'm disgusted by their behavior would be a serious understatement.
Click to expand...

Since they claim the mother lacked mental capacity to make decisions, the daughters are criminal kidnappers and the facility co-conspirators. The daughters had NO legal standing to take her anywhere NOR any legal standing to make any decisions for her. None whatsoever. But their own claim, it was impossible the mother consented to being put anywhere else.

And the facility decided they really, really want the MONEY for the mother, so engaged in illegal imprisonment after conspiring with kidnappers.
 
joko104 said:
Since they claim the mother lacked mental capacity to make decisions, the daughters are criminal kidnappers and the facility co-conspirators. The daughters had NO legal standing to take her anywhere NOR any legal standing to make any decisions for her. None whatsoever. But their own claim, it was impossible the mother consented to being put anywhere else.

And the facility decided they really, really want the MONEY for the mother, so engaged in illegal imprisonment after conspiring with kidnappers.
Click to expand...

I think "kidnapping" may be going a little far. I can certainly understand the woman needing more care than he could reasonably receive at home and I can also understand that her husband may well have been in denial about how much care she needed. That being said, my grandmother used to love going out to lunch or to visit someone. She generally didn't know where she was but it was different and she was with people who loved her so she was happy.

From what I'm reading the guy went to see her every day and was totally devoted to her. I have no idea why the daughters decided that was a bad thing and at this point I'm pretty much pissed off at them for handling things the way they did before the arrest. The fact that they decided to charge the guy with rape is so far out of bounds, based on what I've read, that I can only assume that those two women are evil incarnate and I only wish that what they have done to others comes back to them tenfold.
 
Lutherf said:
I've had a good bit of experience with dementia and, generally speaking, the desire to be intimate doesn't go away. One of the problems with that, however, is that it isn't always clear if the patient really knows who they are dealing with. They generally recognize loved ones but sometimes the nature of the relationship can get scrambled. In a case like this I figure that it's probably better that she was intimate with her husband than with someone she imagined was her husband.
Click to expand...

Even though they hadn't had sex in years, my grandfather thought his wife was his mother during the last few months.

She just played along to make him happy.
 
WCH said:
Even though they hadn't had sex in years, my grandfather thought his wife was his mother during the last few months.

She just played along to make him happy.
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It's a really weird disease. It's like the mental light bulb is just kind of flickering. Depending on how far along someone is they can get the relationships all screwed up. My grandmother used to refer to her daughter as "my mother" and I could be referred to as anything from "my husband", "my....what are you now?" or "that nice man".
 
joko104 said:
Since they claim the mother lacked mental capacity to make decisions, the daughters are criminal kidnappers and the facility co-conspirators. The daughters had NO legal standing to take her anywhere NOR any legal standing to make any decisions for her. None whatsoever. But their own claim, it was impossible the mother consented to being put anywhere else.

And the facility decided they really, really want the MONEY for the mother, so engaged in illegal imprisonment after conspiring with kidnappers.
Click to expand...

You're right.Unless they had medical and financial POAs they could do none of those things.

My MIL refuses to give my Wife medical POA because she thinks she'll have her committed to a nursing home. [she has financial POA] [which is stupid because a nursing home would take all of her money]
 
Lutherf said:
It's a really weird disease. It's like the mental light bulb is just kind of flickering. Depending on how far along someone is they can get the relationships all screwed up. My grandmother used to refer to her daughter as "my mother" and I could be referred to as anything from "my husband", "my....what are you now?" or "that nice man".
Click to expand...

We found a chart for dementia on the NET that described the stages. My MIL was pushing 5 out of 7. [7 being totally whacked]

She was taking all sorts of drugs and drinking so it was really hard to judge her state from hour to hour.
 
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