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Thread: The real Che Guevara

  1. #21
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Patric View Post
    white. they are white when we want to avoid charges of our casting them as beasts.

    geo.
    What are you talking about? Who are "they"? Argentinians? You realize that 85% of Argentinian are white, right?

    The vast majority of them

    Under any conditions. Whether painted as beasts or heroes.

    Guevara had no other racial heritage besides white. He was Basque (white), Spanish (white), and Irish (white).

    What else could he have been besides white?
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    What are you talking about? Who are "they"? Argentinians? You realize that 85% of Argentinian are white, right?
    we have gotten way the hell off topic, but what the hell... that's where a lot of the fun is.

    what is white? you mean European? Spanish as opposed to indigeneous? or African? Most exicans are of European heritage... most people in both North and South America or of European heritage... most of them do not consider most of the rest to be white and for certain most HERE do not consider most THERE to be white. 100 years ago in THIS country I would not have been considered white, though I am so white that I have to avoid the sun.

    you might want to look a bit farther into the matter. White is far more often a cultural construct than an anatomical one. For good reason. Race is myth.

    In South America 'color' has more to do with socio-economic level than with skin color... Brazil has more than 130 different 'colors', though, of course, most folks are dark skinned.

    according to a study by Zonalatina on this very same issue, the authors, after having identified the 'colors' in question, say the following:
    As part of the interviewing process, the interviewer is required to classify the respondents into one (and only one) of seven racial categories. . . Of course, this is not an exact science since there is no way to train people to classify 'correctly' (whatever that means) . . .That is to say, we freely admit that the results that we will present in the following are 'junk' science.
    so, how do we know what 'race' or 'color' a person is? simple. ask them. they will tell you. key to the above is the word 'interview". What color is your neighbor. you may have never seen her, but you can know... check the census. THAT is how the races here are qualified.

    In much of So America, be prepared for a lil confusion as, again, 'color' is more an element of socio-economic status than, well, skin color. And it is subject to change. Pele, for instance used to be black but is white now. He 'became white' by getting rich and famous.

    as for argentina, the perception that this south american nation is populated by Europeans is about as factual as that the U.S. is Anglo-Saxon:
    One of the most dominant definitions of the country's identity is that the majority of Argentina's population is white with European ancestors. This image is promoted both by outside observers as well as by some local intellectuals.
    Culture of Argentina - History and ethnic relations

    not good enough? well, lessee.... how CAN we answer this? How about a genetic analysis!?!?!

    kewl!
    The proportion of [Argentinian[ individuals . . . not considered Amerindian (Caucasian?) was 47%, . . . Amerindian . . . were 10% and the mestizo condition . . . accounted for 43%. As depicted in most Latin American countries, there is in Argentina, a clear asymmetry regarding Amerindian matrilineage mestizo (83.3%) when compared with Amerindian patrilineage (16.7%). A clear discrepancy arose in comparison with the physical anthropological position that claims a minimal aboriginal component in Argentina’s population. This contribution provides additional information that supports a more relevant Amerindian component in a country that claimed to be the most European one of the entire Latin America.
    2010 Y-DNA Haplogroup A Tree - The Genetic Atlas

    I elided most of the y-chromosome/mitochondia stuff as tedious. But, in Argentina as elsewhere, the population is a mixture of the people that were there before other people got there and the other people that got there... mestizo, in spanish.

    even simpler... Che Guevara would be considered latino if he were to walk down the streets of L.A. today.

    geo.

  3. #23
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    Re: The Word (Jesus) became flesh and made his dwelling among us

    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post
    The real Che Guevara: . . . thank you for this information .. I hope to learn more about Che Guevara and his Communistic / Socialistic murderous agenda . . . God help our youth .. so many brainwashed by the leftwing-media and government schools . . . turning him into an icconic hero ( a symbol of revolution ) I'm sure it won't be long .. they'll be follwing in his footsteps
    I will keep posting about Che in order than you and others learn the truth about this despicable character.

    When a boy in Guevara’s forces stole some food, he ordered him shot. In January 1957, Guevara personally executed a peasant named Eutimio Guerra because he suspected him of passing on information and described the act in his diary:

    “I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal. He gasped for a little while and was dead. Upon proceeding to remove his belongings I couldn’t get off the watch tied by a chain to his belt, and then he told me in a steady voice farther away than fear: “Yank it off, boy, what does it matter… I did so and his possessions were now mine.” [2, p. 237]

    Later he shot Aristidio, a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on. He ordered the death of Echevarría, a brother of one of his comrades, because of unspecified crimes: “He had to pay the price.” At other times he would simulate executions without carrying them out, as a method of psychological torture.

    He wrote to a friend in December 1957, “Because of my ideological background, I belong to those who believe that the solution of the world’s problems lies behind the so-called iron curtain....” [3, p. 269]

    “If in doubt, kill him” were Che's instructions. On the eve of victory, according to Costa, Che ordered the execution of a couple dozen people in Santa Clara, in central Cuba, where his column had gone as part of a final assault on the island. Some of them were shot in a hotel, as Marcelo Fernándes-Zayas, another former revolutionary who later became a journalist, has written--adding that among those executed, known as casquitos, were peasants who had joined the army simply to escape unemployment.

    [2]Jon Lee Anderson, Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life (New York: Grove Press, 1997).

    [3] Carlos Franqui, Diary of the Cuban Revolution (New York: Viking Press, 1980).

  4. #24
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Patric View Post
    you might want to look a bit farther into the matter. White is far more often a cultural construct than an anatomical one. For good reason. Race is myth.
    1. You might want to look a bit further into the matter... you were the first person to lay any claims about his race. Which only exposed your own ignorance.

    2. It's totally asinine to say race is a myth and a cultural construct and then follow that with genetic evidence that Argentinians are mixed race.

    I mean totally asinine. You can't even do it without actually contradicting yourself.

    The only reason to try and do it is to claim that he isn't "white".

    When you've already argued that it is nothing more than a cultural construct.

    Which, of course, means he was white, since that was how his culture defined him.

    Which, of course, means that you agree that I'm right that he's "white".


    That was fun. Any more intelelctually dishonest positions you'd like for me to expose?


    even simpler... Che Guevara would be considered latino if he were to walk down the streets of L.A. today.
    Even simpler still: Latinos can be any race. Other people's ignorance makes little difference to the reality.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 05-14-10 at 08:10 PM.
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    and you think that myths have no real world effect?

    i will forgo pointing to the most influential myth operating in the world as i do not wish to offend anyone unnecessarily.

    race IS myth. there is no empirical basis for it. that does not in the least matter. we still qualify people according to that myth. 'race' is an 'operable myth".

    the genetic information qualifies the people of Argentina as precisely what you would expect after some 500 years... if you gave it a little thought: mixed indigenous and invader heritage (or race).

    as for the post that started all this brouhaha, you dislike Che. You are not alone in that. You do not like communists. You are not alone in that. If you caricatured a man of a different ethnic heritage (or race) because of his ethnic heritage (or race) you would not be alone in that and i would be perfectly justified in calling you on it.

    on the other hand, if you caricatured him merely because you do not like his politics and/or his means of pursuing those political ends, you may not be alone in that but it would be the first time I have ever seen a man presented as an ape for reasons other than his ethnic heritage (or race). nonetheless, i would owe you an apology for suggesting that you had. If so, consider it as given.

    i would advise, again, that if you wish to avoid being mistaken for a racist that you avoid the tactics of racists.

    geo.

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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Patric View Post
    you dislike Che.
    Yet another ignorant assumption on your part. At which point will you stop making ignorant assumptions?

    I actually don't care about Che in any direction. I do, however, think he looks like Cornelius from planet of the Apes.

    Did you accuse peopel who said Bush looks like a chimp (of which I am one) of being racist?

    If not, then all you have done is expose your own racist tendencies, regardless of your intellectually dishonest attempts to pretend race isn't an issue for you.
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Geo Patric View Post
    If you caricatured a man of a different ethnic heritage (or race)
    BTW, Che is not of a different ethnic heritage than I am.
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Did you accuse peopel who said Bush looks like a chimp (of which I am one) of being racist?
    i never heard that or saw him so represented. Alfred E. Newman, yes, and both very funny and appropos, but, an ape, no

    and race is an issue for everyone, like it or not.

    geo.

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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    BTW, Che is not of a different ethnic heritage than I am.
    my apologies. "Case" does not sound anywhere near as latin flavored as "Guevara" does.

  10. #30
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    Re: The real Che Guevara

    Okay so no links to primary sources. Got it.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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