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Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intact'

Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

That's only a nominal reform. Opposition parties are prohibited from campaigning for office, and half to go through a strenuous process to achieve ballot access that they almost always fail to achieve.

Not really when you see independent acceptance.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

The statistics you cite are true and good things, but just because Cuba has succeeded in reducing infant mortality, illiteracy, etc. does not mean that its suppression of freedom of speech and the total lack of free and fair elections can be overlooked. A brutal dictatorship and a reduced poverty rate can coexist.

well then lets discuss the real issue and thats the DotP
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Not really when you see independent acceptance.

From whom? I fail to see how that addresses the current problems with Cuban electoral law that continue to exist.

well then lets discuss the real issue and thats the DotP

Yes, Cuba is an excellent example of the flaws of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Let's take the issue of racism against non-Whites in Cuba. In the 1960's, Fidel Castro undertook a series of reforms to prevent discrimination against non-white Cubans, who were (and still are) significantly poorer than their white counterparts. After the reforms took place, Castro naively declared racism "dead" in Cuba, and from there on, the government has proceeded to ignore the issue entirely. Another issue with Cuba's implementation of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is its complete abandonment of unionization rights, now that workers striking is completely prohibited.

The broader point here is that a dictatorship of the proletariat is not always properly representative of the proletariat. In an authoritarian form of government, the government itself has a large amount of liberty to divulge from what average people want and pursue its own goals, whether those are an amassing of power, profit, or something else. Cuba has been more successful than most in achieving a socialized economy, but one can look at many other nominally "communist" countries that have undergone extensive privatization while giving lip service to left-wing ideas. And when this disconnect inevitably happens, any critiques of the government have been obliterated, and no debates can be had as to how to best solve pertinent issues. Democracy is the best tool working people to ensure government is protecting their rights/interests.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Yes, Cuba is an excellent example of the flaws of the dictatorship of the proletariat. Let's take the issue of racism against non-Whites in Cuba. In the 1960's, Fidel Castro undertook a series of reforms to prevent discrimination against non-white Cubans, who were (and still are) significantly poorer than their white counterparts. After the reforms took place, Castro naively declared racism "dead" in Cuba, and from there on, the government has proceeded to ignore the issue entirely.
i dont think he said racism was dead, what he said was that workplace racism, was dead, cuba as a former slave colony naturally had developed a racist hierarchy, and of course wealthy whites didn't automatically treat everyone equally including the millions of mostly illiterate slaves that were granted their freedom after the revolution. I think we can say quite comfortably that cuba is the least racist country in the entire western hemisphere, despite its long history as European slave colony, and we can say that while racism might still exist, it certainly has nothing to do with communism. In fact when people complain about "dissendents" their usually complaining about slave owners and racists being treated "poorly"

Another issue with Cuba's implementation of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is its complete abandonment of unionization rights, now that workers striking is completely prohibited.
well they do have union rights, over 90% of cubans are in a union, and theres alot of independent unions but they are organized under the CTC, but when compared with capitalist countries that are lucky to have 20% union participation do you really think they have more rights than even the USA? much less countries like the dominican republic?

The broader point here is that a dictatorship of the proletariat is not always properly representative of the proletariat. In an authoritarian form of government, the government itself has a large amount of liberty to divulge from what average people want and pursue its own goals, whether those are an amassing of power, profit, or something else. Cuba has been more successful than most in achieving a socialized economy, but one can look at many other nominally "communist" countries that have undergone extensive privatization while giving lip service to left-wing ideas. And when this disconnect inevitably happens, any critiques of the government have been obliterated, and no debates can be had as to how to best solve pertinent issues. Democracy is the best tool working people to ensure government is protecting their rights/interests.
well the comparison is between the DotP and the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, while dotp might not always do whats best for the proletriat, for whatever reason, the dictatorship of the bousgousie never even intended to in the first place
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Capitalism is coming.

Question is how much of a cut these corrupt elites will get when it does.

I'd like to add that, oddly enough, Crovax has a point. While there are some areas that Cuba is advanced in, namely their vastly successful universal healthcare system, I don't think defense of the regime's record, particularly on electoral law is justified, not even, nay, especially, from a leftist perspective. Cuban society is highly militarized, and the military's influence within the country is unparalleled, any form of political dissidence is repressed, regardless of whether or not said dissidence is left or right wing, journalists are jailed en masse, workers are prohibited from going on strike (which is especially ironic), and racism against non-whites is still prevalent and completely ignored by the government. The use of left-wing rhetoric by the Castro's doesn't make up for that.

Woah, an honest socialist.

Good luck getting investment capital from the US private sector.

Americans did business in the Soviet Union during the Stalinist 30's.

We can do business anywhere.
 
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Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

i dont think he said racism was dead, what he said was that workplace racism, was dead, cuba as a former slave colony naturally had developed a racist hierarchy, and of course wealthy whites didn't automatically treat everyone equally including the millions of mostly illiterate slaves that were granted their freedom after the revolution. I think we can say quite comfortably that cuba is the least racist country in the entire western hemisphere, despite its long history as European slave colony, and we can say that while racism might still exist, it certainly has nothing to do with communism. In fact when people complain about "dissendents" their usually complaining about slave owners and racists being treated "poorly"

I bring up racism is because it's merely an example of how the dictatorship of the proletariat's ability to adjust based on input and criticism and address pertinent issues is inadequate. The racial hierarchy in Cuba (which I'll grant you, was originally generated by capitalistic factors), has not been adequately addressed because of the disconnect I mentioned earlier. It's difficult to say which country is the "least racist" in the Western Hemisphere, mainly because it's difficult to define what exactly that means. I'd give a slight edge to Canada, due to the enshrining of multiculturalism in its constitution, the role of Canada in the historical slave trade being negligible in comparison to every other "American" country, where slavery was deeply entrenched as an institution, and the amount of rights granted to Native Americans in comparison to the United States. But that's a tangent.

well they do have union rights, over 90% of cubans are in a union, and theres alot of independent unions but they are organized under the CTC, but when compared with capitalist countries that are lucky to have 20% union participation do you really think they have more rights than even the USA? much less countries like the dominican republic?

A lot of good a union does if its members cannot go on strike when their rights are being violated. The weakness of organized labor in other countries is a problem, but it's not an excuse for the Cuban government to restrict the labor rights of its citizens. The fact that US workers have the ability to go on strike, while Cuban workers do not, is one area where, shockingly enough, US labor law is superior to that of the Cubans.

well the comparison is between the DotP and the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, while dotp might not always do whats best for the proletriat, for whatever reason, the dictatorship of the bousgousie never even intended to in the first place

You're presenting a false dichotomy.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Woah, an honest socialist.

:lol:

The insistence on several strands of the socialist movement to exonerate current and past left-wing dictators exclusively because they're left-wing strikes me as extremely dogmatic and one of the biggest hurdles to the ideology's lack of success in many other countries.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

:lol:

The insistence on several strands of the socialist movement to exonerate current and past left-wing dictators exclusively because they're left-wing strikes me as extremely dogmatic and one of the biggest hurdles to the ideology's lack of success in many other countries.

I'm as anti-far left as they come, but good to see you have integrity. Someone amongst your kind has to.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

I bring up racism is because it's merely an example of how the dictatorship of the proletariat's ability to adjust based on input and criticism and address pertinent issues is inadequate. The racial hierarchy in Cuba (which I'll grant you, was originally generated by capitalistic factors), has not been adequately addressed because of the disconnect I mentioned earlier. It's difficult to say which country is the "least racist" in the Western Hemisphere, mainly because it's difficult to define what exactly that means. I'd give a slight edge to Canada, due to the enshrining of multiculturalism in its constitution, the role of Canada in the historical slave trade being negligible in comparison to every other "American" country, where slavery was deeply entrenched as an institution, and the amount of rights granted to Native Americans in comparison to the United States. But that's a tangent.
I would strongly argue that latin america is the least racist region on planet earth and cuba the least racist country in that region, arguably the world. interacial marriages are the highest in latin america, to the point thats its really difficult to even determine what race people are, countries like canda or sweden with little or no minorities, doesnt really count as being not racist, because they have nothing to be racist against. Either way this argument is just used as capitalist/american propaganda, they like to say that cuba claims to have erased racism then tell a story of someone who was victim of racism, as if its somekind of proof of something. This argument is basically saying "see the communists can't get rid of racism, because racism is natural, so lets get back to building slave ships"


A lot of good a union does if its members cannot go on strike when their rights are being violated. The weakness of organized labor in other countries is a problem, but it's not an excuse for the Cuban government to restrict the labor rights of its citizens. The fact that US workers have the ability to go on strike, while Cuban workers do not, is one area where, shockingly enough, US labor law is superior to that of the Cubans.
well now that they are openly stating they are going to be practicing exploitative labor practices i think its fine if they allow labor strikes and they probably will soon if they haven't already, but theres technically no official laws against striking, they just don't officially have "the right" to, since under full communism labor unions wouldn't be needed.



You're presenting a false dichotomy.
how so? i don't really see any middle ground?
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

I'm as anti-far left as they come, but good to see you have integrity. Someone amongst your kind has to.

lol is that why your lean says "moderate"?
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

so your okay with supporting the confederacy which murdered 10's of millions of black people, and caused the US civil war, but your not okay with cubans causing maybe 0.001% of the death and destruction that your favorite politcal group has?

would you prefer if it Cuba were like capitalist haiti? confederates sure treated them well....


This is a false analogy. The Confederacy ended 150 years ago. No one owns blacks any longer. No one advocates slavery anymore.

Hopefully, Cuba will come on board with better human rights now that we've opened dialogue. Alienating them as we did in the past didn't work.

I do think, however, that we must denounce Cuba's human rights violations just as strongly as we denounce them elsewhere in the world.

United Nations News Centre - UN rights chief urges Cuba to halt harassment of activists and respect human rights
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

lol is that why your lean says "moderate"?

A political centrist would by definition be opposed to far left (or right) ideologies.

Not sure what the lol is for.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

A
Cuba Vows to Keep Socialism 'Intact' Despite US Investment | News | teleSUR English

Reforms may not happen in the way the US expected. Vast privatization will not happen but instead a move to worker owned cooperatives will be the move the Cuban government makes.

This is very nice TDS. We'll be patient, but this is a vastly better way to encourage and help facilitate social reformers in nudging a country towards democracy. If it comes from within, it's bound to be better than by force, which we've obviously not been successful at.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

I would strongly argue that latin america is the least racist region on planet earth and cuba the least racist country in that region, arguably the world. interacial marriages are the highest in latin america, to the point thats its really difficult to even determine what race people are, countries like canda or sweden with little or no minorities, doesnt really count as being not racist, because they have nothing to be racist against. Either way this argument is just used as capitalist/american propaganda, they like to say that cuba claims to have erased racism then tell a story of someone who was victim of racism, as if its somekind of proof of something. This argument is basically saying "see the communists can't get rid of racism, because racism is natural, so lets get back to building slave ships"

Latin American culture has broken down barriers in terms of marriage between race. It certainly does not have a perfect history in terms of race relations (see: Patagonian genocide in Argentina, white supremacy in most South American countries post-independence that still lingers today with discrepancies between non-whites and whites). To claim that Canada is homogeneous enough that race relations are nonexistent is disingenuous; A quarter of the population is of non-European origin.

Your argument is refuting the ideas of some villainous American capitalist, but it's not addressing my point. I'm not arguing that racism is natural (obviously, I'm not a terrible human being), but that Cuba's government has not been effective in addressing institutionally established racism because it has been able to sweep the issue under the rug due to the lack of presence of a substantial opposition. Presence of political opposition forces governments to take input from critics and better work towards improvements in their political programs to achieve the best results. The issue of institutionalized racism is an example of how this is not happening in Cuba.

well now that they are openly stating they are going to be practicing exploitative labor practices i think its fine if they allow labor strikes and they probably will soon if they haven't already, but theres technically no official laws against striking, they just don't officially have "the right" to, since under full communism labor unions wouldn't be needed.

Cuba hasn't achieved "full communism." I don't agree with the idea that a point is reached when organized labor is no longer necessary. Even if "full communism" is reached, there is no guarantee that it will permanently remain in place, and under such a system, workers need to ensure that that the government isn't divulging from the interests of the people it purports to represent.

how so? i don't really see any middle ground?

Democratically elected government. There is not a guarantee that said government will be always be of a socialist persuasion, but if it is elected by the people, it is authentic in its ability to represent the interests of society's most oppressed.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Cuba Vows to Keep Socialism 'Intact' Despite US Investment | News | teleSUR English

Reforms may not happen in the way the US expected. Vast privatization will not happen but instead a move to worker owned cooperatives will be the move the Cuban government makes.

it's bad business to invest in Cuba, especially if they are committed to maintaining Socialism
there is no benefit to investing in Cuba under a repressive Socialist regime..

if Cuba decides to change and protect private property and privately owned assets, maybe... but until that time, investors would be plain old dumb to pour money into that regime's pocket.

Cuba still hasn't paid for all he assets they stole in the 60's.... billions worth.... paying off those claims would be a good faith gesture Cuba needs to look at.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

And what about thier murdering dissidants policy, still intact?

Ironic avatar and post.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Latin American culture has broken down barriers in terms of marriage between race. It certainly does not have a perfect history in terms of race relations (see: Patagonian genocide in Argentina, white supremacy in most South American countries post-independence that still lingers today with discrepancies between non-whites and whites).
what you mean to say is that European settlers in south america dont have a perfect history in terms of race relations. but thats like saying africa is a racist continent because of the rwandan genocide, or south african apartheid. My point about interacial marriages was thats its very difficult to tell who qualifies as white, with estimates ranging from 10% to 65% of cuba depending on what you consider to be white.

To claim that Canada is homogeneous enough that race relations are nonexistent is disingenuous; A quarter of the population is of non-European origin.
actually 95% of canadas minorities live in cities, and over 60% live in just two cities vancouver and toronto, the entire country is about the population size of the New york city metropolitan area

Majority of Canada's visible minorities live in just two cities

and lets not forget Canada's history of genocide of the Inuits and the fact that they are extremely discriminated against in Canada, it wasn't until the 1960's (after the cuban revolution) that Canada adopted a secular government, and started even considering these people citizens. Also they're still technically are part of the british monarchy, which means means theyre by definition a racist country, there wasn't even a revolt like in america. they just sort of got together one day and voted to treat non white christians like they were atleast half-human
Your argument is refuting the ideas of some villainous American capitalist, but it's not addressing my point.
never, just that you may be suffering from the capitalist indoctrination that typically comes from living in the "The beautiful Pacific Northwest" ;)


I'm not arguing that racism is natural (obviously, I'm not a terrible human being), but that Cuba's government has not been effective in addressing institutionally established racism because it has been able to sweep the issue under the rug due to the lack of presence of a substantial opposition. Presence of political opposition forces governments to take input from critics and better work towards improvements in their political programs to achieve the best results. The issue of institutionalized racism is an example of how this is not happening in Cuba.

Cuba hasn't achieved "full communism." I don't agree with the idea that a point is reached when organized labor is no longer necessary. Even if "full communism" is reached, there is no guarantee that it will permanently remain in place, and under such a system, workers need to ensure that that the government isn't divulging from the interests of the people it purports to represent.

Democratically elected government. There is not a guarantee that said government will be always be of a socialist persuasion, but if it is elected by the people, it is authentic in its ability to represent the interests of society's most oppressed.

your not addressing the reason why the dotp was created which was the beleif that we currently have a dictatorship of bourgeoisie, so you have to atleast argue why you think america is not a dotb
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

it's bad business to invest in Cuba, especially if they are committed to maintaining Socialism
there is no benefit to investing in Cuba under a repressive Socialist regime..

if Cuba decides to change and protect private property and privately owned assets, maybe... but until that time, investors would be plain old dumb to pour money into that regime's pocket.

Cuba still hasn't paid for all he assets they stole in the 60's.... billions worth.... paying off those claims would be a good faith gesture Cuba needs to look at.

American businessmen made good money in the Soviet Union, even during the 30's when Stalinist purges were all the rage.

Where there's a profit, there's a way.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

Cuba is not a Caribbean North Korea. It's a police state, yes. Try to organize a demonstration against the government, and you'll be put in jail, although maybe only for a short time. (If you're familiar with Singapore, it has some things in common.)

The most important thing about the place is that everyone knows that the top-down command economy does not work. You can't buy a decent bar of soap in some cities. This is what happens when the government runs everything. But how to change things? This is still an open question.

But what should be of interest to people on this forum is the debate that is now going on, on the internet. Cubans have limited access to the internet, the way most of us have limited access to first-class airline travel. Hotspots are few, and it's expensive. But you see dozens of young people with their smartphones or tablets sitting around the hotels outside (using their hotspot), or at the few official government hotspots.

To see the debate, look at this remarkable online (English and Spanish) newspaper, The Havana Times. There you'll see debates about socialism, co operatives, capitalism, etc. Also, Al Jazeera has done a couple of good short video reports on the Cuban internet phenomenon, here and here.

Cuba is going to change, there is no question of that. I think the change will certainly be for the better, and that some form of multi-party democracy, perhaps restricted as it is in Singapore, is in the cards, although not for a few years.
 
Re: Cuba Set to Approve New Foreign Investment Projects, Vow to Keep Socialism 'Intac

I'd also like to address Social Democrat's charge that Cuba has not addressed "institutional racism". But first, I would ask that he define it, and give an example of how it operates in Cuba.

Let's agree that there is a serious correlation between your racial ancestry, and your likelihood of, say, going to medical school, or to university at all. I would call this "racial disadvantage", which does not automatically say what the problem is: it might well be, entirely or in part, due to outright racial discrimination: fifty people apply for medical school, only 25 can be taken, and the person making the decision looks at applicants' photographs and where their grades are similar, chooses the whites, mainly. That's possible, and that's racism.

But ... here is another possibility: the person choosing the 25 out of 50 looks only at their grades, and chooses the best 25, which happens to include a lot of whites and few Blacks. Maybe the Blacks got the poorer grades because of some sort of racist discimination among their teachers further back down the line, which would also be racism. But ... I suspect the problem is, the whites come from more middle class families: they heard a wider range of vocabulary when they were growing up; their parents read more books; the have relatives who went to university. The Blacks, less so. So that even if everything the state does is equal, the whites still have an advantage which shows up in their grades without any overt (or even covert) discrimination.

For those interested in this issue, as it applies to Cuba, you should read Fidel Castro's 'interview-biography' with the editor of Le Monde Diplomatique, written about ten years ago, where he is asked about, and talks about, this very issue.

If this is 'institutional racism', okay, then I believe that exists in Cuba, but I would call it 'Institutional racial disadvantage'. The use of the word 'racism' makes it appear that the problem is some subterranean racists who can be spotted and uprooted, when in fact the cause of the problem is different.

Also, on the dissident, Oscar Paya, who was killed in an automobile accident. If you Google the incident and read all the stories, it's not absolutely clear what happened. There are three possibilities:
--- (1) the driver, another Cuban dissident, fell asleep at the wheel (he was driving) and swerved off the road and ran into a tree. This can happen.
--- (2) they were being followed by a State Security car, which rammed them from behind, without the intention of killing them, but of shaking them up, and making it very unpleasant for foreign political leaders (Paya was being accompanied by two European political people, one from Sweden and one from Spain) to come to Cuba and 'meddle in Cuban affairs'. This is not an uncommon tactic for State Security to use, to intimidate dissidents. Their cars are rammed from behind, but not fatally.
--- (3) they were rammed from behind but with the intention that they should crash and die.

My guess is that the best explanation is (2). I don't think the Cuban secret police are stupid, and to kill European politicians, just when Cuba is trying to woo the EU, would have been stupid. If they really wanted to kill Paya they had decades to do it in; if they had decided to kill him they would have waited until he was not accompanied by Europeans.

So I put this tragic death in the same category as all the innocent Cubans the United States in the 60s: the woman in the big department store in Havana which a Cuban CIA agent burned down; the more than 100 who were killed when a ship carrying arms from Belgium was blown up; the civilians killed -- some of them deliberately and in cold blood -- during the Bay of Pigs invansion (one was a 13 year old volunteer literacy teacher, captured by the invaders and murdered because he was wearing a government uniform).

In any case, all of the political people here, left and right, ought to go to Cuba and see for yourself. You can meet people and argue politics with them -- just go to the Havana bookshop/coffeeshop called Cuba Libro (Google it.). And read -- and contribute to -- the Havana Times. There are socialists, communists, anarchists, liberals, free-marketeers, ... all of them writing columns in this on-line paper (which has a Spanish and an English version), and you can comment on the columns.
 
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