The Myth of the Generous Offer

FAIR said:

Although some people describe Israel’s Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank–while retaining “security control” over other parts–that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government......................

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert–about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex–including a former toxic waste dump.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end.

Click to expand...

The Myth of the Generous Offer | FAIR

I decided to put this article up so that people would be more familiar with the reasons why the Palestinians have rejected Israeli proposals that many here think they should have accepted

The false assumption made by the opinion maker here is that a fair solution is one that brings back the situation exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 as if nothing happened, and yes the offer was more than generous and yes the failure to accept or even propose a counter offer by the Palestinians is an eternal and indisputable proof of their failure or lack of interest in making peace with Israel.

The Palestinians can at any point end the occupation by accepting similar offers or making reasonable offers (that do not bring the ending directly or indirectly of the state of Israel that isn't going anywhere) and their fate is in their own hands and has been ever since the PA came to exist, they're just far more comfortable with maintaining the situation, the status quo.

oneworld2 said:

The Myth of the Generous Offer | FAIR

I decided to put this article up so that people would be more familiar with the reasons why the Palestinians have rejected Israeli proposals that many here think they should have accepted

Click to expand...

Neither can accept the proposals of the other side. As Israel is doing okay, it would seem smart, if the Palestinians found a better way to deal with their situation. Had they given up violence, they could have done really well. They could be wealthy. So forget their complaints and demands. They should sort themselves out and stop crying.

Apocalypse said:

The false assumption made by the opinion maker here is that a fair solution is one that brings back the situation exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 as if nothing happened, and yes the offer was more than generous and yes the failure to accept or even propose a counter offer by the Palestinians is an eternal and indisputable proof of their failure or lack of interest in making peace with Israel.

The Palestinians can at any point end the occupation by accepting similar offers or making reasonable offers (that do not bring the ending directly or indirectly of the state of Israel that isn't going anywhere) and their fate is in their own hands and has been ever since the PA came to exist, they're just far more comfortable with maintaining the situation, the status quo.

Click to expand...

But you would say that and deny that................ " Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end."

And , how can "the situation " be " exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 " when Israel has since agreed peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. That the PLO has been supporting a two state solution to the conflict for decades now. That all the Arab states have also supported the two state solution for decades. The de facto recognition of the Israeli state

The world has changed and 1967 has been and gone

Apocalypse said:

, and yes the offer was more than generous and yes the failure to accept or even propose a counter offer by the Palestinians is an eternal and indisputable proof of their failure or lack of interest in making peace with Israel.

Click to expand...

FAIR said:

At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine’s borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals–in other words, counteroffers–showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept.............

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel’s Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. “The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted,” Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Click to expand...

Apocalypse said:

they're just far more comfortable with maintaining the situation, the status quo.

Click to expand...

I think anyone remotely familiar with life for the Palestinians in the illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories would recognize the weakness of this assumption. As the article rightly stated , they don't wish to lock in , forever , most of the very things that make their lives miserable under Israeli occupation.

Insisting that the Palestinians don't want peace with Israel , along with your wish to frame any and every action they take against the Israeli occupation as " terrorism " shows , to me at least , the real wish to dehumanize the Palestinians. And we all understand what that dehumanisation is meant to achieve

oneworld2 said:

But you would say that and deny that................ " Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end."

And , how can "the situation " be " exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 " when Israel has since agreed peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. That the PLO has been supporting a two state solution to the conflict for decades now. That all the Arab states have also supported the two state solution for decades. The de facto recognition of the Israeli state

The world has changed and 1967 has been and gone

Click to expand...

Honestly I have no idea what you're even saying here.

oneworld2 said:

I think anyone remotely familiar with life for the Palestinians in the illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories would recognize the weakness of this assumption. As the article rightly stated , they don't wish to lock in , forever , most of the very things that make their lives miserable under Israeli occupation.

Insisting that the Palestinians don't want peace with Israel , along with your wish to frame any and every action they take against the Israeli occupation as " terrorism " shows , to me at least , the real wish to dehumanize the Palestinians. And we all understand what that dehumanisation is meant to achieve

Click to expand...

Another laughable strawman argument here for the thousandth time that proves these immoral positions cannot be backed with facts and require the deliberate manipulation of reality.
No, believing that terrorism is wrong and that murder is never justified isn't a "dehumanization" of the Palestinians, believing otherwise that Jews taking actions to defend their very lives is wrong no matter what is actually a brutal dehumanization of Jews so it's a very ironic assertion.
Believing that the Palestinians aren't interested in peace and are interested in maintaining the situation judging by the facts that they rejected proposals without offering any counter proposal and that they constantly refuse to sit in the negotiations table with Israel is called being logical.

what do the Palestinian people have to counter the israeli propaganda machine
the staff and resources of the israeli government/military/secret services to generate such myths dwarfs the Palestinian ability to counter it
causes me to wonder how many professional propagandists, paid by the israeli government to perpetuate such myths, visit these boards

justabubba said:

what do the Palestinian people have to counter the israeli propaganda machine

Click to expand...

The answer is not a lot justabubba.

To their elite Arab compatriots they are , imo , a bit of a millstone around the neck. I think they have a fair degree of support/sympathy from the rank and file Arab but the Arab leaderships is another story.

Obviously too the difference in available resources and access to Western elite opinion , the only opinion that really matters for the most part , have a huge impact on the Palestinian ability to counter the wholesale deployment of these myths by the Israeli propaganda machine.

And let's not forget the racial element in all of this. Is it easier to relate to people that look like you do ? Have a similar culture to you in many ways ? Of course it is and I think it plays its part in the understanding of this conflict

The war on terror has also been a blight to their cause ,imo , with the Muslims filling the role given to Jewish people WRT European antisemitism. Some of the " pro Israel" brigade are sure to be engaged only because they detest Muslims. It's the same with the pro Palestinian brigade , some will be engaged because they hate Jews and care not about Israeli policies towards the Palestinians

the staff and resources of the israeli government/military/secret services to generate such myths dwarfs the Palestinian ability to counter it
causes me to wonder how many professional propagandists, paid by the israeli government to perpetuate such myths, visit these boards

Click to expand...

I agree and that's why so many people still believe/repeat these myths here and elsewhere. For the second part , considering that this is a US site and all , quite a few I would imagine. If the Israeli leaderships were to lose their USA ally things could be very very different and I don't think they would be so arrogant in their flouting of international laws and conventions. Hence they have to win over the hearts and minds of as many Americans as they can so as the critical support can continue

Apocalypse said:

Honestly I have no idea what you're even saying here.

Click to expand...

How convenient is that ?

I was saying how vacuous your statements are with regard to " fair deals " and things being "exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 "

I pointed out some of the major events that have changed since 1967, like Israeli peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. The decades old PLO shift to support the two state solution. The Arab leagues willingness to accept the reality and existence of the Israeli state.

The article is rammed full of facts that show why the offers are not fair and why the Palestinians are right to reject them.

It talks about the Taba talks where , for one time only thus far , the talks saw Israeli negotiators move away from total control over the would be Palestinian state and the "detailed counterproposals/counteroffers " made by the Palestinian side............. a fact you, falsely , maintain has never happened

Believing that the Palestinians aren't interested in peace and are interested in maintaining the situation judging by the facts that they rejected proposals without offering any counter proposal and that they constantly refuse to sit in the negotiations table with Israel is called being logical.

Click to expand...

The part I highlighted is incorrect. At the Taba talks they Israeli negotiators , for once , negotiated reasonably and were met by the counteroffers/proposals that you say they never make. No wonder the Israeli leadership decided to bow out of the talks with Shlomo ben Ami stating that " the pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted ".

So what we see is unreasonable Israeli offers being rejected and reasonable offers , for one night only , being not only met with an eagerness on behalf of the Palestinians but initiating a flurry of detailed proposals that they obviously have written up should the Israelis decide to change from being unreasonable to reasonable

joG said:

Neither can accept the proposals of the other side.

Click to expand...

So why don't we just apply the law ?

I mean that's what you would do in any other dispute wouldn't you ?

oneworld2 said:

I was saying how vacuous your statements are with regard to " fair deals " and things being "exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 "

I pointed out some of the major events that have changed since 1967, like Israeli peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. The decades old PLO shift to support the two state solution. The Arab leagues willingness to accept the reality and existence of the Israeli state.

Click to expand...

I said that the mistake of the opinion maker in your opinion piece was he made the false assertion that a fair deal is one that sees an exact return to the situation prior to the war in 1967 as if nothing had changed since then, you agreeing that things have changed is supposed to mean what exactly?

The article is rammed full of facts that show why the offers are not fair and why the Palestinians are right to reject them.

Click to expand...

It's a very long opinion piece no different than any one of the comments you me or anyone else make on this website, if there's an argument there you agree with draw it out, put it in a quotation box so I could refer to it.
As to what you did quote as I said it shows that this opinion maker is basing his wrong ideas on the belief that a fair deal is only one that sees a return to the situation right before the 1967 war. It isn't, it's a maximal pro-Palestinian deal, that should be obvious.

It talks about the Taba talks where , for one time only thus far , the talks saw Israeli negotiators move away from total control over the would be Palestinian state and the "detailed counterproposals/counteroffers " made by the Palestinian side............. a fact you, falsely , maintain has never happened

Click to expand...

You're clearly mistaken if you believe that stating your positions or what you agree with and what you do not during negotiations is the same as making a proposal. The proposal Ehud Barak made for example was a complete and final peace proposal, fully detailed and ready to execute. There was no counter proposal from Arafat, neither was there any from Abbas to Olmert's proposal in 2008. This misunderstanding is the root of your mistaken position clearly, the fact the Palestinians never accepted the proposals or made any counter offer to those proposals is, truly, an historic fact. It's not something I 'maintain'.

oneworld2 said:

But you would say that and deny that................ " Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end."

Click to expand...

Not really. What we would have seen if the Palestinians truly made peace was that elements of restriction would have naturally fallen away. The issue is that the Israelis have had the Arab world at their throats for decades prior to the occupation and the Palestinians continued to declare to anyone who would listen that the goal of all of this was to put those hands back in place. Had the Palestinians truly decided to be a peaceful people, they would be among the most prosperous of all Arab countries.

And , how can "the situation " be " exactly to how it was before the six-days war in 1967 " when Israel has since agreed peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. That the PLO has been supporting a two state solution to the conflict for decades now. That all the Arab states have also supported the two state solution for decades. The de facto recognition of the Israeli state

The world has changed and 1967 has been and gone

Click to expand...

The PLO has never been willing to recognize Jewish independence in Israel. "Sure I recognize your state but I also have a right for all my people to "return" there" isn't really recognition, you know.

Incidentally, you can talk about peace with Egypt and Jordan all you want. As we saw, it only takes one coup to undo decades of policy and diplomatic advancements. Israel's security is not a bargaining chip and will not be traded.

The Palestinians can deal with this or they can't. It's really up to them, but the end result if they do not accept Israel's right to security is more of the same.

oneworld2 said:

I think anyone remotely familiar with life for the Palestinians in the illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories would recognize the weakness of this assumption. As the article rightly stated , they don't wish to lock in , forever , most of the very things that make their lives miserable under Israeli occupation.

Insisting that the Palestinians don't want peace with Israel , along with your wish to frame any and every action they take against the Israeli occupation as " terrorism " shows , to me at least , the real wish to dehumanize the Palestinians. And we all understand what that dehumanisation is meant to achieve

Click to expand...

And lol. You mean Barak broke off negotiations while the Palestinians were systematically launching and engaging in a terrorist war against Israel's civilian population?

You don't say???

Serious question. Do the Palestinians and their supporters think the rest of us are so stupid that we will ignore what actually happened and accept their whitewashed version of nonsense talking points?

Saying I want peace and here is my "serious counter proposal", while I continually tell my people to go out and slaughter the Jews and wave after wave of suicide bomber, many of which were actually Fatah people, infiltrate past soldiers and blow up children and nightclubs and restaurants, is about as disingenuous as it gets.

But sure, keep reminding the rest of us of that time the Palestinians rejected peace and independence to launch a suicide bomb war against Israeli women and children. Reminds the rest of us how important it is to continue standing fast against Palestinian rejectionism and aggression.

justabubba said:

what do the Palestinian people have to counter the israeli propaganda machine
the staff and resources of the israeli government/military/secret services to generate such myths dwarfs the Palestinian ability to counter it
causes me to wonder how many professional propagandists, paid by the israeli government to perpetuate such myths, visit these boards

Click to expand...

lol. There are like 8 regular posters on this board. So pretty sure the answer is zero.

I would feel bad for the Palestinians if they didn't consistently try to murder Jews while rejecting every opportunity for peace. I still do feel bad for the kids, because their leadership and older generations will never, ever allow them to grow up willing to make peace and reconcile with the Jews.

oneworld2 said:

The answer is not a lot justabubba.

To their elite Arab compatriots they are , imo , a bit of a millstone around the neck. I think they have a fair degree of support/sympathy from the rank and file Arab but the Arab leaderships is another story.

Obviously too the difference in available resources and access to Western elite opinion , the only opinion that really matters for the most part , have a huge impact on the Palestinian ability to counter the wholesale deployment of these myths by the Israeli propaganda machine.

And let's not forget the racial element in all of this. Is it easier to relate to people that look like you do ? Have a similar culture to you in many ways ? Of course it is and I think it plays its part in the understanding of this conflict

The war on terror has also been a blight to their cause ,imo , with the Muslims filling the role given to Jewish people WRT European antisemitism. Some of the " pro Israel" brigade are sure to be engaged only because they detest Muslims. It's the same with the pro Palestinian brigade , some will be engaged because they hate Jews and care not about Israeli policies towards the Palestinians

I agree and that's why so many people still believe/repeat these myths here and elsewhere. For the second part , considering that this is a US site and all , quite a few I would imagine. If the Israeli leaderships were to lose their USA ally things could be very very different and I don't think they would be so arrogant in their flouting of international laws and conventions. Hence they have to win over the hearts and minds of as many Americans as they can so as the critical support can continue

Click to expand...

While we're at it, let's add some other fun facts that perhaps explain western symapthies a bit better than they like the Jews better than the Arabs (cause some of us know our history ...)

- Western people do not give sympathy to people who celebrate the murder of civilians
- Western people do not give sympathy to terrorists who stab children to death in their beds sleeping at night
- Western people are not sympathetic to people who for decades declared that they would conquor Israel and drive the Jews into the sea
- Western people are not sympathetic to tribal cultures that do not value human rights
- Western people are less sympathetic to non-democratic states
- Western people lose symapthy for people whose strategy has ranged from hijacking western airliners to staging massacres in western countries to murdering people at the Olympics

Now, I know the Palestinians don't fully appreciate this cause there is a bit of a different culture over here, but the fact that we are less sympathetic to the Palestinians and their destructionist impulses and objectives is a good thing. We should be proud of that.

CJ 2.0 said:

Not really.

Click to expand...

yes , really. Palestinians would have agreed to the same restriction of movement/logistical impossibilities that they endure now to accommodate the annexed settlements/link roads/illegal barrier/security posts etc

What we would have seen if the Palestinians truly made peace was that elements of restriction would have naturally fallen away. The issue is that the Israelis have had the Arab world at their throats for decades prior to the occupation and the Palestinians continued to declare to anyone who would listen that the goal of all of this was to put those hands back in place. Had the Palestinians truly decided to be a peaceful people, they would be among the most prosperous of all Arab countries.

Click to expand...

You expect them to make a huge leap of faith there imo. Sure the " restrictions would fall away " , and if they didn't , tough you signed the agreement lol. The advent of the Zionist project in Palestine ensured that the Arabs would be forced to pay the price for European antisemitism. No wonder the opposed it. And you could also say that Israel has been " at the throats "of the Arabs and expected them to deal with the carnage the creation of the state was sure to introduce to the region

The PLO has never been willing to recognize Jewish independence in Israel. "Sure I recognize your state but I also have a right for all my people to "return" there" isn't really recognition, you know.

Click to expand...

And no Israeli political party has ever recognised the Palestinian state that consists of the Gaza , WB including East Jerusalem as its capital. So the rejectionism is a two way street

Incidentally, you can talk about peace with Egypt and Jordan all you want. As we saw, it only takes one coup to undo decades of policy and diplomatic advancements. Israel's security is not a bargaining chip and will not be traded.

Click to expand...

I spoke about them in the context that things have changed since 1967 and despite your paranoia have these treaties been cancelled ? Has war broke out ? Nobody can guarantee the complete security of their state, Israelis are no different in that respect.

And I know it never seems to enter your head but there is such a thing as security for the Arabs from Israeli aggression. Once again, security is a two way street

The Palestinians can deal with this or they can't. It's really up to them, but the end result if they do not accept Israel's right to security is more of the same.

Click to expand...

Nope , it's up to both sides. Israel can have peace if it allows the Palestinians the same rights they enjoy in Israel

CJ 2.0 said:

And lol. You mean Barak broke off negotiations while the Palestinians were systematically launching and engaging in a terrorist war against Israel's civilian population?

You don't say???

Serious question. Do the Palestinians and their supporters think the rest of us are so stupid that we will ignore what actually happened and accept their whitewashed version of nonsense talking points?

Saying I want peace and here is my "serious counter proposal", while I continually tell my people to go out and slaughter the Jews and wave after wave of suicide bomber, many of which were actually Fatah people, infiltrate past soldiers and blow up children and nightclubs and restaurants, is about as disingenuous as it gets.

But sure, keep reminding the rest of us of that time the Palestinians rejected peace and independence to launch a suicide bomb war against Israeli women and children. Reminds the rest of us how important it is to continue standing fast against Palestinian rejectionism and aggression.

Click to expand...

In a later post than the one above you will claim that " some of us know our history ", implying that I don't :roll:

Well , when Barak decided to call it a day on Taba there was no " wave after wave of suicide bombers " or all of the other stuff you include to engender an emotional response,......... so you entire post above is nonsense

The reason why the talks were abandoned by the Israeli side was spelled out by the head of the Israeli negotiating team when he stated that.............. " The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted,”

CJ 2.0 said:

lol. There are like 8 regular posters on this board. So pretty sure the answer is zero.

Click to expand...

Why be so defensive ?

One or two is all that is needed

I would feel bad for the Palestinians if they didn't consistently try to murder Jews while rejecting every opportunity for peace. I still do feel bad for the kids, because their leadership and older generations will never, ever allow them to grow up willing to make peace and reconcile with the Jews.

Click to expand...

Well, maybe if you tried treating the Palestinians as human beings instead of herd animals to be moved around or penned in the animosity might stop.

Also , if you keep offering them a bum deal don't be surprised if they reject it

I'm sure that the wholesale subjugation , complete humiliation and mass slaughterings of the Palestinian people witnessed by the " kids " on a daily/ biennial basis will ensure that peace with their tormentors will be more or less impossible regardless of what their " leaderships/older generations" have to say

CJ 2.0 said:

While we're at it, let's add some other fun facts that perhaps explain western symapthies a bit better than they like the Jews better than the Arabs (cause some of us know our history ...)

Click to expand...

Let's.............. and while we're at it let's confirm that , despite your claim of " knowing our history " , the Al Aqsa intifada , which was obviously what you were referring to earlier ,started after the Israelis walked out of the peace talks at Taba

- Western people do not give sympathy to people who celebrate the murder of civilians

Click to expand...

Maybe that's why we have been encouraged not to remember those Israelis in NY that , according to themselves , had been put there to " film the event " and were seen high fiving eachother and dancing with joy as American civilians were jumping to their deaths to escape the burning towers

- Western people do not give sympathy to terrorists who stab children to death in their beds sleeping at night

Click to expand...

Nor would they give sympathy to Israelis who delight in setting Palestinian kids on fire and burning them alive

What's the human rights situation in Israeli occupied Palestine ? Do Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as the Jewish citizens ?

Do I need to go on ?

Now, I know the Palestinians don't fully appreciate this cause there is a bit of a different culture over here, but the fact that we are less sympathetic to the Palestinians and their destructionist impulses and objectives is a good thing. We should be proud of that.

Click to expand...

I'm sure the Palestinians are well aware of the hypocrisy of Western governments and their propagandists .

The culture is different here. We have committed far far worse crimes than any Palestinian leader has ever committed. Epic slaughters that have seen the destruction of entire countries and left tens of millions displaced , maimed , dead...................... the difference is that we are conditioned not to see these crimes as crimes. Instead they are noble endeavours to try to make the world a better place. And if we ever get caught with our trousers down we can always fall back to that tried and tested position were we admit to the odd " mistake" or two .

I'm just bursting with pride

oneworld2 said:

Let's.............. and while we're at it let's confirm that , despite your claim of " knowing our history " , the Al Aqsa intifada , which was obviously what you were referring to earlier ,started after the Israelis walked out of the peace talks at Taba


Maybe that's why we have been encouraged not to remember those Israelis in NY that , according to themselves , had been put there to " film the event " and were seen high fiving eachother and dancing with joy as American civilians were jumping to their deaths to escape the burning towers



Nor would they give sympathy to Israelis who delight in setting Palestinian kids on fire and burning them alive

What's the human rights situation in Israeli occupied Palestine ? Do Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as the Jewish citizens ?

Do I need to go on ?



I'm sure the Palestinians are well aware of the hypocrisy of Western governments and their propagandists .

The culture is different here. We have committed far far worse crimes than any Palestinian leader has ever committed. Epic slaughters that have seen the destruction of entire countries and left tens of millions displaced , maimed , dead...................... the difference is that we are conditioned not to see these crimes as crimes. Instead they are noble endeavours to try to make the world a better place. And if we ever get caught with our trousers down we can always fall back to that tried and tested position were we admit to the odd " mistake" or two .

I'm just bursting with pride

Click to expand...

The problem is that many people, myself included, would comprehensively disagree with your characterization of events, both factually and ethically. You also seem to have a tendency towards the conspiratorial, I mean come on, the 'dancing Israeli's on 9/11' canard?

Has anyone besides me noticed the gleam in the eye of Trump when this subject comes up?

He actually thinks he can do a deal to solve this, I think.

So have loads of others, not named TRUMP.

But maybe his fresh thinking will work.

We can only hope for now.

Whenever pro-Israeli types do nothing t have a leg to stand on in debates such as these they seem to always fall back on the 'Palestinians don't want peace' nonsense.

It amazes me how much hatred anti-Palestinians have for them considering the fact that Israel's standard of living dwarfs the Palestinian's and how Israel has killed many times more innocent Palestinian civilians and children than the reverse.

Where all this hatred from Israel comes from is a mystery to me.

But Apartheid South Africa had much the same attitude towards 'black' South African's...so I suppose I should not be that surprised.

DA60 said:

Whenever pro-Israeli types do nothing t have a leg to stand on in debates such as these they seem to always fall back on the 'Palestinians don't want peace' nonsense.

It amazes me how much hatred anti-Palestinians have for them considering the fact that Israel's standard of living dwarfs the Palestinian's and how Israel has killed many times more innocent Palestinian civilians and children than the reverse.

Where all this hatred from Israel comes from is a mystery to me.

But Apartheid South Africa had much the same attitude towards 'black' South African's...so I suppose I should not be that surprised.

Click to expand...

It is quite obvious who decides to avoid factual discussion and engage in either conspiracy theories or simply empty drivel like the above.

oneworld2 said:

Why be so defensive ?

One or two is all that is needed


Well, maybe if you tried treating the Palestinians as human beings instead of herd animals to be moved around or penned in the animosity might stop.

Also , if you keep offering them a bum deal don't be surprised if they reject it

I'm sure that the wholesale subjugation , complete humiliation and mass slaughterings of the Palestinian people witnessed by the " kids " on a daily/ biennial basis will ensure that peace with their tormentors will be more or less impossible regardless of what their " leaderships/older generations" have to say

Click to expand...

The occupation exists because Israel has a right to defend its citizens from Palestinian terrorists. The ordinary Palestinian citizens are subject to limits on their freedom of movements but they are not being humiliated or not treated like human beings as is your false claim. Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorist attacks, claiming that Israel, for defending its citizens from terrorism and targeting terrorists who attack them, is "slaughtering innocents" is wrong and immoral and seeks to take away the basic right of Israeli Jews to live without being targeted for murder as it seeks to disallow any Israeli act of self-defense meant to prevent these attempted murders. It's asinine.

Claiming posters you disagree with are paid posters, constantly, is a proof of your willingness to base your positions on fantasies and what you wish to be true, not necesssarily what is true.
Please do take note you've dodged my previous comment and for the who knows what time have deliberately avoided any factual discussion as it destroyed your false claims.

oneworld2 said:

In a later post than the one above you will claim that " some of us know our history ", implying that I don't :roll:

Well , when Barak decided to call it a day on Taba there was no " wave after wave of suicide bombers " or all of the other stuff you include to engender an emotional response,......... so you entire post above is nonsense

The reason why the talks were abandoned by the Israeli side was spelled out by the head of the Israeli negotiating team when he stated that.............. " The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted,”

Click to expand...

Yes, only 1 suicide bombing and 4 other terrorist attacks in January 2000, including kidnappings and shootings during the summit. Chronology of terrorist attacks in Israel part VII

Such clean hands.