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The Myth of the Generous Offer

I don't think you would have agreed to what the Palestinians have rejected had you been in their shoes

In case you hadn't noticed the ME has been under a " reordering " for quite some time now regardless of Irans nuclear programme

The Jews accepted the Peel Plan that gave them virtually nothing because they wanted their own state. Even though "International Law" had given them all of Israel, the WB, Gaza, the Golan and Jordan as a "national home". Because independence and allowing for their own free state was more important than winning or righting a perceived "injustice".
 
By placing around half a million of them , illegally , in amongst the Palestinians themselves ? Okay , can't say that I understand how that works exactly. Seems to me that the occupation is being used to annex territory , like Israel has declared its annexation of East Jerusalem via the occupation. I'm sure that's not the only part that they want to incorporate into the Israeli state judging by the location of the settlements and the illegal wall built around them



And if this were true you would have no problem finding numerous examples of me doing it , right ?

This is the problem with failing to distinguish between geographies.

Jews in Hebron are a massive problem. It is pretty obvious to see and I don't feel bad recognizing that. I sort of understand the mindset about how they were massacred out in 1929 but still. Jews in outposts that interfere with Palestinian movement and land use are a problem.

But Jews on the seam line, Maleh Adumim etc are not. And that is where you lose us when you push propaganda points about 400,000 people. Cause most of those don't interfere with anybody and live in territories that Israel will not be giving to the Palestinians for their new state (and it will be a new state, having never existed before).

That sort of distinction and recognition of nuance would do you very well, IMO, in discussions here. At least with some of us, including our resident Israelis.
 
The Palestinians might never have a state , it's quitre possible , but the irony is that the Jewish people of Israel will never have peace as a result. In other words , the place they created in order to feel safe is in fact the most dangerous place in the world to be for them

Except it's not. Because when you have a history as long as ours, knowing that there is somewhere that has an army full of Jews whose mission is to actually protect the Jews is deeply comforting. Cause we know that it takes one generation, sometimes less, to go from complete assimilation to outright persecution and genocide. And we are done living at the sufferance of others for century after century.

Incidentally, I still believe that what you are proposing will not lead to peace but increases the likelihood of war, just like Oslo created far more exposure, and resulted in far more casualties, compared to a continued hard line against the PLO. Cause when you delude yourself into thinking a terrorist rejectionist is a peace-maker, policies that would advance peace with a peacemaker will actually be counter productive as they enable the scumbag to better make war. Which is exactly what happened with Arafat and is the same thing that would happen with whoever will replace Abbas (not to mention Hamas and Gaza...).

The Palestinians have completely squandered any trust they ever had and nothing they are doing today is helping them to get it back. They don't deserve to be trusted, and if you want Israel to extend trust you need to have someone put pressure on them to actually do something to change their culture.
 
Accusing posters of being paid posters? Like you just did, or before it when you accused me of being "Hasbara-trained", which is it?

Like you've forgotten ? lol

I haven't just accused anyone of being a paid poster , that's why you haven't cited anything. And yes I did comment on your remarks with the term Hasbara training but even that doesn't constitute an accusation of a " paid poster " because , as you will know , the Hasbara fellowships are there to train/support wouldbe Jewish/Israeli activists internationally especially students . That needn't even be a paid undertaking

Instead of admitting to making a completely false statement about me, you attempt to bash square pegs into round ones in order to make the charge fit. And it's pathetic.

Remember you used the word " constantly " too , so there should be endless quotes of mine you could show to back up your assertion.

You can't because it's just a fantasy of your own making in order to try to discredit me.

As I said above , it's just a pathetic and baseless accusation that actually discredits you and not me
 
Hey thanks - appreciate the correction. We are all just doing our best so no worries. I make mistakes all the time. Heated topic so it's nice when we can climb down and just be like, real people.



And so after they rejected camp david and after they launched possibly the most morally abhorrent war that has ever been launched (where peace and independence were rejected in favour of a war where civilians were targeted and the Palestinian population danced in the streets when women and children were murdered), and after the world condemned ISRAEL for the violence and excused and tolerated Palestinian massacre after massacre, well ... that was the end of it, wasn't it. Folks like me saw the Palestinian national movement for what it is - nothing but the same old same old anti-zionist rejectionist movement of the PLO of old. We saw that the Palestinians as a people don't really want peace and co-existence, they want to keep fighting because it is all they have been taught and all they seem to care about. We saw people shouting at the Jews that they were not fighting fair while trying to defend against wave after wave of terror bombings and shooting attacks and knife attacks and car attacks and on and on. We saw yet another round of delegitimization of the Jews as a people, as a people worthy of collective self-defence rights, worthy of protection from attack - condemned every single time they sought to defend against another terrorist. And we saw that the international community cannot be trusted to protect us, just like they have never been able or willing to protect us in the past.

And that's why folks like me who were so eager for peace and acceptance during the 1990s have opened our eyes and see the world for what it is, rather than what we would like it to be. Because the only way to actually deal with this mess, IMO, is to see things as they are and fix the problem. And the problem, as always, is Palestinian rejectionism and their unwillingness to take the steps needed to get from here to there. If the Palestinians give up and sue for peace there will be peace and they will gain independence. Might not be everything they ever hoped and dreamed for, but there would be peace, it would be durable, and everybody would benefit. But if they do not change their underlying purpose, the underlying aims of the Palestinian national movement, the richest "peace treaty" in the world that gives them everything they say they want, will afford the Israelis no peace and no comfort.

So do the Israelis have clean hands? No. But they tried. They really, truly did. Not everyone, not 100% trying to move the right way all the time, but they moved the social consensus so far to the left the Israelis of the 1970s would not have recognized it. And they were repaid with the a barbaric offensive against the very core of civilized society.

Just my views from my perspective, but I hope this helps you see where I am coming from in all this.

You're welcome, no problem.

It is a heated topic and we can all make mistakes and/or get a tad carried away with things. It's a highly emotive situation for sure

I can see where you are coming from and I am not unsympathetic or unfamiliar with Jewish suffering throughout history. Including up to the present btw. I will admit too that there is plenty on the Arab side to be critical of/horrified at/mistrusting of .

That said there is plenty on the Israeli side to be critical of/horrified at/mistrusting of too. That there are extremists on both sides of the divide. That selfish political considerations , on both sides , have also contributed to the continued impasse.

My wish is to see a lasting and successful resolution that , hopefully , with time , would see an end to the constant tit for tat slayings from both sides. I just feel that whilst many here in the West will be well versed with , or more well versed , with the Israeli historiography than they will with the Arab sides interpretations/sentiments.

Where we differ mostly , imo , is what we consider to be a just resolution. For me it has to be a just one for it to stand any chance of survival.

I think that there are more similarities with regards to how people react in certain situations than there are differences , the world over. People are people and there's nowt as queer as folk

Even if we don't agree on many things, I do believe that our interest in the conflict is along similar lines. A wish to see and end to the carnage it at all possible

BTW sorry I had to edit out some of your post , it wouldn't let me post due to exceeding the characters allowance
 
Like you've forgotten ? lol

I haven't just accused anyone of being a paid poster , that's why you haven't cited anything. And yes I did comment on your remarks with the term Hasbara training but even that doesn't constitute an accusation of a " paid poster " because , as you will know , the Hasbara fellowships are there to train/support wouldbe Jewish/Israeli activists internationally especially students . That needn't even be a paid undertaking

Instead of admitting to making a completely false statement about me, you attempt to bash square pegs into round ones in order to make the charge fit. And it's pathetic.

Remember you used the word " constantly " too , so there should be endless quotes of mine you could show to back up your assertion.

You can't because it's just a fantasy of your own making in order to try to discredit me.

As I said above , it's just a pathetic and baseless accusation that actually discredits you and not me

Your dodging is just as pathetic as the accusations themselves, in post #8 for another example you're agreeing with justabubba (another one who made a similar accusation and not for the first time) and even claiming that you are certain that there are more than a few paid pro-Israeli posters on these boards. Hysterical how you came to believe that empty denial is the answer to everything.
 
You're welcome, no problem.

It is a heated topic and we can all make mistakes and/or get a tad carried away with things. It's a highly emotive situation for sure

I can see where you are coming from and I am not unsympathetic or unfamiliar with Jewish suffering throughout history. Including up to the present btw. I will admit too that there is plenty on the Arab side to be critical of/horrified at/mistrusting of .

That said there is plenty on the Israeli side to be critical of/horrified at/mistrusting of too. That there are extremists on both sides of the divide. That selfish political considerations , on both sides , have also contributed to the continued impasse.

My wish is to see a lasting and successful resolution that , hopefully , with time , would see an end to the constant tit for tat slayings from both sides. I just feel that whilst many here in the West will be well versed with , or more well versed , with the Israeli historiography than they will with the Arab sides interpretations/sentiments.

Where we differ mostly , imo , is what we consider to be a just resolution. For me it has to be a just one for it to stand any chance of survival.

I think that there are more similarities with regards to how people react in certain situations than there are differences , the world over. People are people and there's nowt as queer as folk

Even if we don't agree on many things, I do believe that our interest in the conflict is along similar lines. A wish to see and end to the carnage it at all possible

BTW sorry I had to edit out some of your post , it wouldn't let me post due to exceeding the characters allowance

Thanks again oneworld and no worries re the edits.

I feel like maybe we're getting somewhere too, which is always nice.

"Justice" is as elusive concept, and sometimes the blind pursuit of justice results in a whole bunch of pain and suffering (which is not just) which is not worth it. I for one do not believe that "justice", if that means righting all perceived historical wrongs, is a necessary condition here. In fact, I believe that it is an obstacle. I also think that "justice" is such a subjective, amorphous term that it is used by the Palestinians primarily to be able to reject any compromise that is given to them. All the territory they are asking for - sure but it's still not "just" because no right of return. etc.

There are issues of injustice on both sides, to both peoples. Historically in the conflict and more recently. The issue though is how to resolve things so that they get better for everybody. And by now I think you know my view - the Palestinians need to stop being rejectionist and need to stop being destructionist. Don't focus on what everyone has done to you and how you are the victim of injustice, focus on what you need for a better future and what you need to do to get it. I think if the Palestinians had this view, and worked hard to move their people off the current mindset, that we could have peace within a decade. But all this focus on injustice justifying rejectionism and brutal glorification of violence doesn't make things better and doesn't improve the likelihood of the Palestinians gaining independence and living in peace.

And this is why I get to my "extreme" position of recognizing the Palestinians need to be be defeated utterly in order to have a chance here. Because from what I can see only a complete and total defeat will cause them to reevaluate their objectives, the purpose of being a Palestinian and the purpose of their national movement. Right now, as it has always been, the purpose of the Palestinian national movement is the denial of zionism. And you can't build a nation on the core principle of denying nationhood to another people. It can't work. For all the things folks say about the Jews and the Israelis, it is obvious that the purpose of Israel and the desire for a Jewish state was never based on a desire to deny the Palestinians their own state. The Jews didn't really care about the Arabs living in Palestine, sure, but indifference is different than an intention to negate. Which is how and why the Palestinian national identity and movement was formed - as a counterclaim against the Jews.

So how can we move things? Some Palestinians try, through building or social development, but they do not control things and there are far too many who will overpower them on the extremist side (because the extremist is the mainstream). And unfortunately, only through the Palestinians losing and being abandoned can they hope to jettison the nonsense poison that has denied them peace and independence for decades. The Japanese are the perfect example of a cultural change for the better brought about by complete defeat.

I would love it if there were a better way, but I don't see any other approach moving the needle on this or resulting in any sort of peace. Would love to be proven wrong, though.
 
That's okay Sherman123, that's what these forums are all about , discussing why people hold the views that they do.

Feel free to cite the stuff you are referring to in particular

Well , you may call it conspiratorial but the women who rang the police and gave the vans licence plate number etc stated that she saw them looking pleased as they filmed the carnage in NY. They were arrested.

What's not true in the above ?

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

They "looked pleased"? Please define that? And is the "dancing"? No?

Guess you just exposed yourself.
 
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

They "looked pleased"? Please define that? And is the "dancing"? No?

Guess you just exposed yourself.

She didn't elaborate on the clip I saw , she said they looked pleased , they didn't looked shocked and no it's not dancing

And you exposed yourself too , as a stalker. I must have gotten under you skin when I showed that the US government were complicit in the gassing of Iranian soldiers and you just can't forgive me for it

Hey ho
 
She didn't elaborate on the clip I saw , she said they looked pleased , they didn't looked shocked and no it's not dancing

And you exposed yourself too , as a stalker. I must have gotten under you skin when I showed that the US government were complicit in the gassing of Iranian soldiers and you just can't forgive me for it

Hey ho

Every Iranian KIA advances the cause of peace and freedom in the world.
 
She didn't elaborate on the clip I saw , she said they looked pleased , they didn't looked shocked and no it's not dancing

And you exposed yourself too , as a stalker. I must have gotten under you skin when I showed that the US government were complicit in the gassing of Iranian soldiers and you just can't forgive me for it

Hey ho

So the "dancing Israelis" bit is made up garbage.

Got it.

And what "stalking"?

When was the last time I responded to your lies?

Well, most of what you post are falsehoods or misrepresentation.

Timeframe.
 
So how can we move things? Some Palestinians try, through building or social development, but they do not control things and there are far too many who will overpower them on the extremist side (because the extremist is the mainstream). And unfortunately, only through the Palestinians losing and being abandoned can they hope to jettison the nonsense poison that has denied them peace and independence for decades. The Japanese are the perfect example of a cultural change for the better brought about by complete defeat.

I would love it if there were a better way, but I don't see any other approach moving the needle on this or resulting in any sort of peace. Would love to be proven wrong, though.

TBH I don't agree with some/much of the analysis you covered , that I had to edit out for the same reason as before ( sorry again ), in this post and feel it is the Israeli side that needs to be defeated ( diplomatically/politically ) before it will come to its senses

What to do ?

I think that the framework should be based on international law simply because I think it's really important for people to understand who is really making concessions and who isn't. It is only in this context that , what is referred to as Arab/Palestinian rejectionism , can be seen in its true light.

The law is clear on most of the main points and the massive international consensus on the conflict reflects this

1. All of the West Bank , Gaza and East Jerusalem constitute the Occupied Palestinian Territories and that's what the vast majority of the world think should make up the Palestinian state

2. All of the settlements are illegal under article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention

3. On the borders situation , the internationally recognized border is the green line. I know you will say something like that line is no good , but hear me out on this for a moment. Let's just accept this for now

4 The right of Return of the Palestinians is enshrined in UNGA 194. I know UNGA resolutions aren't binding and are recommendations but none the less they have relevance. If I wanted to be pedantic I could say that the UNGA resolution to partition Palestine into two states was illegitimate because it never had UNSC endorsement

From what I can gather about the Taba negotiations the Palestinian side agreed that around 50% of the illegal settlements would be annexed by Israel . Seeing as the Palestinian side, according to international law , had the right to refuse any settlements concession and Israel the legal right to demand none , it soon becomes apparent which side made the concession.

On the question of border alterations and territorial percentages , including land swaps , the Palestinians conceded overall around 3 % of the territory it is legally entitled to. Again the concession is on the Palestinian side not the Israeli side.


On the right of return the Palestinians never demanded the return of the 5 -6 million Palestinians in the diaspora be returned. Figures vary but the highest figure seems to be around the 800,000 mark. No small amount at the top end but not a full return either. Again that is a huge concession on the Palestinian side

Now I am not hardline enough to demand that the letter of the law be followed rigidly here , the above has one purpose only. To show that when you apply international law to the negotiations and not the Israeli wish list , of which it is entitled to practically zilch , the whole outlook changes.

All of the above is completely achievable imo and would constitute a fairish resolution
 
TBH I don't agree with some/much of the analysis you covered , that I had to edit out for the same reason as before ( sorry again ), in this post and feel it is the Israeli side that needs to be defeated ( diplomatically/politically ) before it will come to its senses

What to do ?

I think that the framework should be based on international law simply because I think it's really important for people to understand who is really making concessions and who isn't. It is only in this context that , what is referred to as Arab/Palestinian rejectionism , can be seen in its true light.

The law is clear on most of the main points and the massive international consensus on the conflict reflects this

1. All of the West Bank , Gaza and East Jerusalem constitute the Occupied Palestinian Territories and that's what the vast majority of the world think should make up the Palestinian state

2. All of the settlements are illegal under article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention

3. On the borders situation , the internationally recognized border is the green line. I know you will say something like that line is no good , but hear me out on this for a moment. Let's just accept this for now

4 The right of Return of the Palestinians is enshrined in UNGA 194. I know UNGA resolutions aren't binding and are recommendations but none the less they have relevance. If I wanted to be pedantic I could say that the UNGA resolution to partition Palestine into two states was illegitimate because it never had UNSC endorsement

From what I can gather about the Taba negotiations the Palestinian side agreed that around 50% of the illegal settlements would be annexed by Israel . Seeing as the Palestinian side, according to international law , had the right to refuse any settlements concession and Israel the legal right to demand none , it soon becomes apparent which side made the concession.

On the question of border alterations and territorial percentages , including land swaps , the Palestinians conceded overall around 3 % of the territory it is legally entitled to. Again the concession is on the Palestinian side not the Israeli side.


On the right of return the Palestinians never demanded the return of the 5 -6 million Palestinians in the diaspora be returned. Figures vary but the highest figure seems to be around the 800,000 mark. No small amount at the top end but not a full return either. Again that is a huge concession on the Palestinian side

Now I am not hardline enough to demand that the letter of the law be followed rigidly here , the above has one purpose only. To show that when you apply international law to the negotiations and not the Israeli wish list , of which it is entitled to practically zilch , the whole outlook changes.

All of the above is completely achievable imo and would constitute a fairish resolution

I have an idea....

Israel gives back everything taken in 1967 to their owners.

Gaza goes back to Egypt. The West Bank goes back to Jordan.

That is who had them in 1967.
 
Your dodging is just as pathetic as the accusations themselves, in post #8 for another example you're agreeing with justabubba (another one who made a similar accusation and not for the first time) and even claiming that you are certain that there are more than a few paid pro-Israeli posters on these boards. Hysterical how you came to believe that empty denial is the answer to everything.

Having supplied precisely none you refer to " another example " :roll:

I gave a one sentence answer to justabubba and stated that I would imagine there are quite a few paid Israeli shills visiting these boards. And in that I include political forums in general. Hasbara fellowships are really aimed at campuses , iirc , but it would be naive to believe that the world of political debate forums would be excluded from that type of attention

BTW you need to get out more imo , you seem to be here 24/7. Are you legion ?
 
I have an idea....

Israel gives back everything taken in 1967 to their owners.

Gaza goes back to Egypt. The West Bank goes back to Jordan.

That is who had them in 1967.

There have been wars since then. Israel won them all. That matters.
 
I have an idea....

Israel gives back everything taken in 1967 to their owners.

Gaza goes back to Egypt. The West Bank goes back to Jordan.

That is who had them in 1967.

Luckily the overwhelming international consensus doesn't support you idea
 
The Jews accepted the Peel Plan that gave them virtually nothing because they wanted their own state. Even though "International Law" had given them all of Israel, the WB, Gaza, the Golan and Jordan as a "national home". Because independence and allowing for their own free state was more important than winning or righting a perceived "injustice".

I don't think it's correct to say that the " Jews accepted the Peel Plan " tbh and I don't think it " gave them nothing " is accurate CJ

Anyone familiar with the Zionists positions , now made available due to documentary access , will see that the line was to agree to anything deemed positive and keep your own agenda to yourselves. These were stepping stones the Zionists made with the intention of creating as much of what they wanted by themselves when the time was right
 
This is the problem with failing to distinguish between geographies.

Jews in Hebron are a massive problem. It is pretty obvious to see and I don't feel bad recognizing that. I sort of understand the mindset about how they were massacred out in 1929 but still. Jews in outposts that interfere with Palestinian movement and land use are a problem.

But Jews on the seam line, Maleh Adumim etc are not. And that is where you lose us when you push propaganda points about 400,000 people. Cause most of those don't interfere with anybody and live in territories that Israel will not be giving to the Palestinians for their new state (and it will be a new state, having never existed before).

That sort of distinction and recognition of nuance would do you very well, IMO, in discussions here. At least with some of us, including our resident Israelis.

I tend to distinguish between what's legal/legitimate and what's not in this conflict. The fact is that all of the settlers are illegal. I don't see that as propaganda , just a fact of reality.

I mean thx for the advice , but I have no intention of creating a different reality to try to placate any other posters here.

The Jewish outposts are , imo , intentional pawns to be sacrificed when the real game starts so as to hang on to the ones they really want.
 
I believe the coming Trump administration will move the US Embassy to Jerusalem.
 
I gave a one sentence answer to justabubba and stated that I would imagine there are quite a few paid Israeli shills visiting these boards. And in that I include political forums in general. Hasbara fellowships are really aimed at campuses , iirc , but it would be naive to believe that the world of political debate forums would be excluded from that type of attention

These boards means DP and your empty denial is just as tiring as it is hysterical.
 
TBH I don't agree with some/much of the analysis you covered , that I had to edit out for the same reason as before ( sorry again ), in this post and feel it is the Israeli side that needs to be defeated ( diplomatically/politically ) before it will come to its senses

What to do ?

But we know that's not true because the Israelis were the ones who moved their population and policies as a result of the Oslo years and we know the Israeli people will respond and adjust their democratic leadership in accordance with the will of the people.

I think that the framework should be based on international law simply because I think it's really important for people to understand who is really making concessions and who isn't. It is only in this context that , what is referred to as Arab/Palestinian rejectionism , can be seen in its true light.

My issue with this is your "international law" is a fiction. It has always been more or less fictitious, but the reason why the progressive left and the non-democratic world loves it so much is its subjective nature and the ability to bend it to circumstance based on nothing. So "East Jerusalem" is "occupied Palestinian territory" - why? They never possessed it and were never granted it by any laws. The Mandate for Palestine was an actual international law. What abrogated it? What cause it to be trumped by your current views? How does it reflect the recognition by the security council after the 6 day war that not all territories needed to be returned to Jordan and Egypt (both of whom have renounced all claims to those territories, incidentally)? Why is international law with respect to some empty hilltops more important, say, than international law with respect to incitement to genocide and various other war crimes the Palestinians routinely engaged in as a matter of policy? Why is the "right of return" a thing when the 15 million Germans ethnically cleansed from Czechoslovakia a few years beforehand a non-issue? What about the population exchanges in India and Pakistan?

In my view, you like "international law" here because you think it helps you, rather than because of principle or because it is in any way a legitimate source of authority, but you think it's ok to pick and choose which pieces of that "law" matter and which don't, while interpreting the ones you do like however you want. I don't think it works that way and I really do not believe it is helpful. The entire Palestinian national movement is based on a war crime (the destruction of Israel), for crying out loud.

From what I can gather about the Taba negotiations the Palestinian side agreed that around 50% of the illegal settlements would be annexed by Israel . Seeing as the Palestinian side, according to international law , had the right to refuse any settlements concession and Israel the legal right to demand none , it soon becomes apparent which side made the concession.

And here's the problem. This framing is fundamentally inimical to a peaceful settlement. Which is precisely why the PLO pushed it. The PLO could have agreed to an independent Palestinian state on more than 95% of the WB and Gaza. Whether that is consistent with your interpretation of the law or not is stupidly irrelevant IMO. They had a chance to make the future better and they rejected it. The real reason fro that was because they were not prepared to stop fighting against Israel's existence, but even in your framing the reason is still stupid - because it wasn't "fair" or "legal" that they wouldn't get a few more slivers of territory.

And sure, maybe it wasn't fair. But who the hell cares at the end of the day. Was that worth 10,000 deaths and another 2 decades of occupation? Are you advocating that they refuse to cut a deal that gives them almost everything you want for them because it wasn't everything you believe they are entitled to?

How is that reasonable?

(sorry - I also had to cut some of your post for word count)
 
I don't think it's correct to say that the " Jews accepted the Peel Plan " tbh and I don't think it " gave them nothing " is accurate CJ

Anyone familiar with the Zionists positions , now made available due to documentary access , will see that the line was to agree to anything deemed positive and keep your own agenda to yourselves. These were stepping stones the Zionists made with the intention of creating as much of what they wanted by themselves when the time was right

Which the Palestinians should have done at Camp David. Make peace. Become independent. And then slowly chip away at restrictions that become less necessary or reasonable over time as you show the Israelis you are in fact a good neighbour.

The Jews were promised all of Israel by "international law". It was then illegally abrogated and they were offered a tiny piece. They still said yes.
 
I tend to distinguish between what's legal/legitimate and what's not in this conflict. The fact is that all of the settlers are illegal. I don't see that as propaganda , just a fact of reality.

I mean thx for the advice , but I have no intention of creating a different reality to try to placate any other posters here.

The Jewish outposts are , imo , intentional pawns to be sacrificed when the real game starts so as to hang on to the ones they really want.

I understand and appreciate your perspective. But it's wrong, unfortunately. You do your "cause" a disservice by using propaganda when speaking with people on the other side. Because it makes us less willing to listen, not more, and ends up bogging us down in disagreements instead of trying to find things that we can agree on.

It is precisely the same reason why the Palestinians can't get past their current situation. An obsessive focus on being right about everything and getting everything to which they feel entitled rather than cutting through the crap and getting down to brass tacks.

So sure, keep pretending there are 500k Israelis living "amongst" the Palestinians even though most are contiguous to Israel and therefore not amongst anything, and keep pretending that the law "requires" Israel to give all the territory taken from Jordan to the Palestinians in spite of 262 and the reality that the land was - at law - set aside for the Jews, not the Palestinians, but don't be surprised when the responses you get back are more hostile than when the same points are raised at some anti-Israeli BDS meeting. Cause we know our facts better so those sort so propaganda points tend to do more harm than good.

Incidentally, why are you so insistent that the Palestinians reject peace and remain occupied so that they can preserve their "rights" for an extra few slivers of territory that will make no difference to their ability to pursue any positive national aspirations they may have? At some point the international supporters of the Palestinians will need to honestly address that question. Cause it's one of the biggest problem in this whole mess.
 
But we know that's not true because the Israelis were the ones who moved their population and policies as a result of the Oslo years and we know the Israeli people will respond and adjust their democratic leadership in accordance with the will of the people.

Sorry but I don't accept this interpretation of history

At Oslo the Israeli leadership saw a chance to force through an unfair agreement on the Palestinians due to a desperate Arafat /PLO position. After they had supported Saddam Husseins attack on Kuwait the Arab states cut their funding and they had lost the support of a great many Palestinians.

As Jeff Halpin has stated , and I think his words have validity , when you look at a prison layout it is obvious that the prisoners have around 95% of the area for themselves with the warden and the prison staff having all of the control with just 5 % of the area.

The Palestinians never even asked for the Israeli side to stop building illegal settlements and if you look at the building of settlements it increases massively during the Oslo period. As Shlomo ben Ami stated , the construction of new settlements was contrary to the spirit of Oslo , not the letter of it ". He is also on record as saying had he been negotiating on the Palestinian side he would not have agreed to it either.

That's pretty damning and it only scratches the surface

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-CiTT2OxlQ
 
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