Reignighting Violence .How do ceasefires end ?

How did the recent ceasefire unravel? The mainstream media in the US and Israel places the blame squarely on Hamas. Indeed, a massive barrage of Palestinian rockets were fired into Israel in November and December, and ending this rocket fire is the stated goal of the current Israeli invasion of Gaza. However, this account leaves out crucial facts.

First, and most importantly, the ceasefire was remarkably effective: after it began in June 2008, the rate of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza dropped to almost zero, and stayed there for four straight months (see Figure 1, from a factsheet produced by the Israeli consulate in NYC). So much for the widespread view, exemplified in yesterday’s New York Times editorial that: “There is little chance of restraining Hamas without dealing with its patrons in Syria and Iran.” Instead, the data shows clearly that Hamas can indeed control the violence if it so chooses, and sometimes it does, for long periods of time.

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Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End? | The Huffington Post

With the topic of rocket fire from Gaza once again being discussed in another thread here, I thought it as good a time as any to introduce this study of the ceasefire violations between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

People might be surprised to know that the study clearly shows that it is the Israeli side that are the serial violators of ceasefire agreements between the two sides

oneworld2 said:

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End? | The Huffington Post

With the topic of rocket fire from Gaza once again being discussed in another thread here, I thought it as good a time as any to introduce this study of the ceasefire violations between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

People might be surprised to know that the study clearly shows that it is the Israeli side that are the serial violators of ceasefire agreements between the two sides

Click to expand...

In general the Hamas have not allowed cease fires to continue into peace. That is a true pity, as Palatine could have become successful and wealthy.

joG said:

In general the Hamas have not allowed cease fires to continue into peace. That is a true pity, as Palatine could have become successful and wealthy.

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I think you have missed the point of this thread John and have forgotten that regardless of events in Gaza, the Palestinians in the West Bank are under a brutal and repressive occupation. Maybe if the international community could force the Israeli leaderships into abandoning their self destructive and criminal enterprises against the Palestinians things on both sides might improve

oneworld2 said:

I think you have missed the point of this thread John and have forgotten that regardless of events in Gaza, the Palestinians in the West Bank are under a brutal and repressive occupation. Maybe if the international community could force the Israeli leaderships into abandoning their self destructive and criminal enterprises against the Palestinians things on both sides might improve

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The Westbank developed in a path dependent meander of back and forth to where it is today. The baby bombs sent into cafes and buses to blow up were an important part of this process.

oneworld2 said:

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End? | The Huffington Post

With the topic of rocket fire from Gaza once again being discussed in another thread here, I thought it as good a time as any to introduce this study of the ceasefire violations between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

People might be surprised to know that the study clearly shows that it is the Israeli side that are the serial violators of ceasefire agreements between the two sides

Click to expand...

of course when you regard to rate of rocket fire being "almost zero" instead of actual zero in order to call it "maintaining cease fire", it is easy to paint Israel as the violator.
All cease fires were usually violated within one month by the Palestinians.

ido_ said:

of course when you regard to rate of rocket fire being "almost zero" instead of actual zero in order to call it "maintaining cease fire", it is easy to paint Israel as the violator.
All cease fires were usually violated within one month by the Palestinians.

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Well , maybe it's worth clearing somethings up that were mentioned in the article.

Rocket attacks from Gaza are not just carried out by Hamas. So when Hamas agrees to a ceasefire it has to try to stop other factions from undermining it. No easy task imo and the fact that they kept it down to 1 rocket per month for 3 out of the 4 months prior to the outbreak of hostilities says that they can make a significant difference to holding others in check as well as their own.

Another thing worth factoring in is that regardless of attacks on Israel and any ceasefire situations at any given time , Palestinians continue to be harassed , arrested , detained and killed by the IDF/Border forces.

In other words, violence seems only to be considered unacceptable by the majority/media coverage in the West when Israelis come under fire and when they react disproportionally to it, whilst the constant trickle deaths of Palestinians doesn't appear to engender much , if any , of a response here

oneworld2 said:

Well , maybe it's worth clearing somethings up that were mentioned in the article.

Rocket attacks from Gaza are not just carried out by Hamas. So when Hamas agrees to a ceasefire it has to try to stop other factions from undermining it. No easy task imo and the fact that they kept it down to 1 rocket per month for 3 out of the 4 months prior to the outbreak of hostilities says that they can make a significant difference to holding others in check as well as their own.

Another thing worth factoring in is that regardless of attacks on Israel and any ceasefire situations at any given time , Palestinians continue to be harassed , arrested , detained and killed by the IDF/Border forces.

In other words, violence seems only to be considered unacceptable by the majority/media coverage in the West when Israelis come under fire and when they react disproportionally to it, whilst the constant trickle deaths of Palestinians doesn't appear to engender much , if any , of a response here

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You manipulate reality so it will suite you to make Israel the violator, and I'd expect nothing less because using the facts would make your case difficult.

There are defacto two different Palestinian entities, Hamas controlled Gaza strip and PA controlled west bank.

When we speak of cease fire we talk about cease fire between Hamas controlled Gaza Strip and Israel. the west bank is not relevant and not a side, more over Israel maintains diplomatic, economic, and security relations with the PA so speaking of "cease fire" and including Israeli actions in the west bank is ridiculous.

Hamas is the ruling party in Gaza, the government in Gaza is accountable for actions coming from Gaza, when Hamas wants we (Israelis) enjoy peace and quite in our southern border. When sirens go out in Sderot or the villages adjacent to the strip they don't give a **** who is shooting at them, and they shouldnt, if Hamas is not capable of maintaining the cease fire, Israel has every right to bomb the crap out of its, and all other militant organization's terror infrastructure. I'm very happy to see that our current Defense minister embraced this approach and I'm sure it will maintain the current "cease fire" much longer than previous ones.

ido_ said:

You manipulate reality so it will suite you to make Israel the violator, and I'd expect nothing less because using the facts would make your case difficult.

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I haven't " manipulated " any reality and I think the facts back up the claims I have made

When we speak of cease fire we talk about cease fire between Hamas controlled Gaza Strip and Israel. the west bank is not relevant and not a side, more over Israel maintains diplomatic, economic, and security relations with the PA so speaking of "cease fire" and including Israeli actions in the west bank is ridiculous.

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I was talking about cease fires with Hamas in case you hadn't noticed

In 2015 , according to a HRW report , Israeli forces had made 50 military incursions into Gaza as of late November of that year. Had killed 21 Palestinians , injured 100 more in air strikes and shooting at demonstrators , people in the Israeli imposed no go zone inside the strip and fishermen in Gazan coastal waters. Factor in the hardships faced by Palestinians due to the blockade , border points closures and restrictions/disqualifications from travel and what I claimed is thus substantiated in the report.

But whilst we are on the subject let's see what it says about the WB. Remember these are the Palestinians you are supposed to be on good terms with, enjoying " diplomatic, economic, and security relations "

According to the report some 96 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces or settlers and 10,854 injured by them.

That's nearly 5 times as many people killed in the WB as have been killed in Gaza. And a staggering 100xs the number injured

Hamas is the ruling party in Gaza, the government in Gaza is accountable for actions coming from Gaza, when Hamas wants we (Israelis) enjoy peace and quite in our southern border. When sirens go out in Sderot or the villages adjacent to the strip they don't give a **** who is shooting at them, and they shouldnt, if Hamas is not capable of maintaining the cease fire, Israel has every right to bomb the crap out of its, and all other militant organization's terror infrastructure. I'm very happy to see that our current Defense minister embraced this approach and I'm sure it will maintain the current "cease fire" much longer than previous ones.

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In case you forgot , or just don't care , Israelis " enjoying peace " ( from rocket attack ) is not the only consideration worthy of note in this conflict.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/israel/palestine

oneworld2 said:

I haven't " manipulated " any reality and I think the facts back up the claims I have made



I was talking about cease fires with Hamas in case you hadn't noticed

In 2015 , according to a HRW report , Israeli forces had made 50 military incursions into Gaza as of late November of that year. Had killed 21 Palestinians , injured 100 more in air strikes and shooting at demonstrators , people in the Israeli imposed no go zone inside the strip and fishermen in Gazan coastal waters. Factor in the hardships faced by Palestinians due to the blockade , border points closures and restrictions/disqualifications from travel and what I claimed is thus substantiated in the report.

But whilst we are on the subject let's see what it says about the WB. Remember these are the Palestinians you are supposed to be on good terms with, enjoying " diplomatic, economic, and security relations "

According to the report some 96 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces or settlers and 10,854 injured by them.

That's nearly 5 times as many people killed in the WB as have been killed in Gaza. And a staggering 100xs the number injured



In case you forgot , or just don't care , Israelis " enjoying peace " ( from rocket attack ) is not the only consideration worthy of note in this conflict.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/israel/palestine

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That's a really funny comment.
I was trying to read it several times to see how you found it to be sensible but I simply couldn't find anything.

You're basically talking here about how Israel is launching attacks at Gaza, how the blockade on Gaza exists, how surprising it is that in the year 2015 when there was no war in Gaza and there was towards the end of the year a new wave of WB-originated terrorism or as it's known "the knives intifada" there were a lot more Palestinian deaths in the WB than in Gaza, emphasizing how many more.
You're basically listing the details and expecting what exactly? That it'll be an argument against Israel and its actions in the WB and Gaza? That it would show Israel violates a cease fire?

Let me try and see if I can get you to accept several facts of reality;

A) The blockade exists because Hamas is an Islamic terror organization (Like Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, ISIS, you know, that kind of people) that rules the Gaza Strip and has shown on more than one occasion that it has both the means and the willingness to carry attacks against Jewish citizens of Israel be it by rockets by tunnels or by any other method, Israel has a right to make sure no arms are getting into the Gaza Strip by imposing the blockade and it will continue to do so. Your argument that Israel should not impose a blockade is nonsensical.

B) Incursions into Gaza exist because Israel targets something. That something is Hamas terrorists, Islamic Jihad terrorists, or terrorists from any of the many other Islamic terror groups in Gaza. Israel targets this 'something' because this 'something' is threatening human lives within Israel either by rockets, tunnels or any other method and Israel has the right to target this 'something', your argument that Israel should not commit strikes in Gaza is nonsensical.

C) Palestinians from the WB who die, the ones you've listed and the over 200 in 2016 you haven't, are nearly all terrorists who are killed while carrying out acts of terror similar to the act of terror in Ohio by that Somali refugee not long ago. They are killed, like that Somali was killed, because the humans they target have the right to defend themselves. Your argument that Israeli citizens and security forces do not have the right to defend themselves from those who attempt to kill them is nonsensical.

It's nice that you have details, but as long as you don't show that you realize anything about what those details mean and as long as you just post them here as if they were, on their own, an argument against the behavior of Israel's security forces or the Israeli administration itself, well, it's obviously not adding anything useful. Saying that dozens of Palestinians have been killed in 2015 without mentioning that nearly all were terrorists is not adding anything useful, neither is referring to the blockade without referring to the reason it exists or referring to attacks in Gaza without referring to the reason they exist. Hopefully it starts making sense to you.

Apocalypse said:

You're basically talking here about how Israel is launching attacks at Gaza, how the blockade on Gaza exists, how surprising it is that in the year 2015 when there was no war in Gaza and there was towards the end of the year a new wave of WB-originated terrorism or as it's known "the knives intifada" there were a lot more Palestinian deaths in the WB than in Gaza, emphasizing how many more.
You're basically listing the details and expecting what exactly? That it'll be an argument against Israel and its actions in the WB and Gaza? That it would show Israel violates a cease fire?

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Of course they present arguments that are against Israeli policies.
If we take the “ knives intifada “, it becomes starkly apparent that placing your civilian population , illegally , in regions where you are brutally occupying and repressing the locals cannot be portrayed as an action that seeks to protect them.
No illegal settlers in Gaza , no victims of any “ knives intifada “ in Gaza.
Tons of illegal settlers in the WB , all the Israeli victims of the “ knives intifada “ to be found in the WB.

So the, “ occupation is necessary to protect Israeli citizens “ argument goes straight out of the window.
And a point of clarification on the “ knives intifada “ victims and their attackers
Those Palestinians that attacked the army/security personnel are not committing terrorist acts. The targeting of occupying soldiers/forces is deemed to be legitimate resistance to a foreign military occupation .
The Palestinians responsible have just become illegal combatants , that’s all.
Despite your unwillingness to recognize this fact and your rush to paint any action carried out by Palestinians as “ terrorism “ , it is still and remains a fact not all of the incidents qualify.

You recently commented on the IDF soldier that was filmed assassinating a Palestinian that was lying on the ground after an attack on an Israeli soldier in Bethlehem and referred to him, incorrectly, as a terrorist.

Anyone would think that your MO was to make the title “ Palestinian “ synonymous with the word “terrorist” .

What should the Palestinians learn from the conduct of the differing factions that are their representatives?
That the PLO/Fatah , having suspended its armed struggle for a while , has gained what ? A cessation of illegal settlement building ? Nope
An end to the crippling , brutal and repressive Israeli occupation of the Palestinians with the wholesale violation of their every right , every day of their lives ? Nope.

The realisation of their own state ? Nope.

Should they, the Palestinians , realize that it matters not whether their representation/resistance is secular or religious based. Violent or none violent. That the end result is the same , ongoing subjugation and a big NO to self determination


WRT the Israeli blockade of Gaza , well , what can we say ?

That the aim was to undermine support for Hamas there ?
Seems like it’s been a bit of a failure on that score.

That it stops arms into Gaza ?

Well yes it will to a degree but I I would say that the number of rockets they fire and the firefights they have with the IDF when the next slaughter of Gazan Palestinians gets underway seems to undermine the effectiveness of the blockade on that score too.

That Israeli Jews are happy to see a whole mass of people crammed into a massive open prison living in squalid hopelessness so long as they don’t try to spoil their peace and tranquillity whilst they enjoy their own freedom to determine their lives for themselves.

Targeted killings/extra judicial slayings , should we blindly support that ? Should people turn a blind eye to the many many people , innocent people , killed/maimed by the same missiles just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time ?
What about those on the lists of victims who are not specified as belonging to any particular group and are designated as “ terrorists “ simply because they have been killed by the IDF ?

There’s quite a lot to talk about really. Well for those who can see past the Israeli propaganda there is

oneworld2 said:

Of course they present arguments that are against Israeli policies.
If we take the “ knives intifada “, it becomes starkly apparent that placing your civilian population , illegally , in regions where you are brutally occupying and repressing the locals cannot be portrayed as an action that seeks to protect them.
No illegal settlers in Gaza , no victims of any “ knives intifada “ in Gaza.
Tons of illegal settlers in the WB , all the Israeli victims of the “ knives intifada “ to be found in the WB.

[...]

Anyone would think that your MO was to make the title “ Palestinian “ synonymous with the word “terrorist” .

What should the Palestinians learn from the conduct of the differing factions that are their representatives?
That the PLO/Fatah , having suspended its armed struggle for a while , has gained what ? A cessation of illegal settlement building ? Nope
An end to the crippling , brutal and repressive Israeli occupation of the Palestinians with the wholesale violation of their every right , every day of their lives ? Nope.

The realisation of their own state ? Nope.

Should they, the Palestinians , realize that it matters not whether their representation/resistance is secular or religious based. Violent or none violent. That the end result is the same , ongoing subjugation and a big NO to self determination


WRT the Israeli blockade of Gaza , well , what can we say ?

That the aim was to undermine support for Hamas there ?
Seems like it’s been a bit of a failure on that score.

That it stops arms into Gaza ?

Well yes it will to a degree but I I would say that the number of rockets they fire and the firefights they have with the IDF when the next slaughter of Gazan Palestinians gets underway seems to undermine the effectiveness of the blockade on that score too.

That Israeli Jews are happy to see a whole mass of people crammed into a massive open prison living in squalid hopelessness so long as they don’t try to spoil their peace and tranquillity whilst they enjoy their own freedom to determine their lives for themselves.

Targeted killings/extra judicial slayings , should we blindly support that ? Should people turn a blind eye to the many many people , innocent people , killed/maimed by the same missiles just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time ?
What about those on the lists of victims who are not specified as belonging to any particular group and are designated as “ terrorists “ simply because they have been killed by the IDF ?

There’s quite a lot to talk about really. Well for those who can see past the Israeli propaganda there is

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I just laid out the facts to you and you failed to actually respond to any of them revealing for the who knows what time that you are unable to recognize the immorality and wrongness of your stated positions and automatically avoid any factual discussion so to avoid accepting your positions as such.

I told you that your argument against Israel preventing arms from getting into Hamas-controlled Gaza is nonsensical because it's obvious that Israel has the right and in fact must do that otherwise it allows the murder of its citizens. I told you the same about your argument against Israel striking Gazan terror targets, that it's nonsensical as Israel has to do this because otherwise it allows terrorism against its population.

The same goes in regards to your argument against Israel killing those Palestinian terrorists in the WB, it's nonsensical to expect people not to defend themselves from those who attempt to murder them. Your positions here is A) Active murderers should not be forbidden from getting weapons and B) The murderers should not be attacked no matter what. It's clearly not making any sense and you failed to even refer to the lack of logic in your arguments.

For the record; 1) the attacks were not "mostly in the WB", that is a lie, 2) the Palestinian terrorism predates the occupation, and 3) Hamas are responsible for the civilians that are killed when Hamas militants are being targeted, Israel cannot simply grant Hamas terrorists a free hand because civilians might be killed due to Hamas' intention on getting them killed for the sake of PR and so to recruit more propagandaists in the Western world and your argument that Israel should not commit strikes in Gaza is nonsensical.

Apocalypse said:

I just laid out the facts to you and you failed to actually respond to any of them revealing for the who knows what time that you are unable to recognize the immorality and wrongness of your stated positions and automatically avoid any factual discussion so to avoid accepting your positions as such.

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Nope, you did what you always do , which is to justify every violation of the Palestinians by the Israeli state on the grounds of self defence/population protection.

I don't see anything immoral in my positions though I do see plenty of immoral stuff in the positions you try to ascribe to me. I also see the constant use of inflammatory remarks aimed at inciting me........ that's not going to happen

I told you that your argument against Israel preventing arms from getting into Hamas-controlled Gaza is nonsensical because it's obvious that Israel has the right and in fact must do that otherwise it allows the murder of its citizens. I told you the same about your argument against Israel striking Gazan terror targets, that it's nonsensical as Israel has to do this because otherwise it allows terrorism against its population.

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My argument isn't against Israels attempt to stop arms getting into Gaza. My comments show that I think the policy hasn't worked too well. I do disagree with many of the restrictions placed upon the people of Gaza as a result of the blockade and that's not the same thing.

Same with the targeted killings/extra judicial slayings , I gave my opinions on what I think is wrong about them. I also posited the question of the farce of the occupation to protect civilians that actually places them in the most danger. You just can't bring yourself to comment on it for some reason

The same goes in regards to your argument against Israel killing those Palestinian terrorists in the WB, it's nonsensical to expect people not to defend themselves from those who attempt to murder them. Your positions here is A) Active murderers should not be forbidden from getting weapons and B) The murderers should not be attacked no matter what. It's clearly not making any sense and you failed to even refer to the lack of logic in your arguments.

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Of course people have the right to defend themselves from attempted murder , my comments never stated anything contrary to that. They did state that some of the attacks that people like you describe as " terrorism " are in fact legitimate acts of resistance against occupying military forces. I know why you don't want others to know about this distinction but there is a distinction to be made imo.

For the record; 1) the attacks were not "mostly in the WB", that is a lie, 2) the Palestinian terrorism predates the occupation, and 3) Hamas are responsible for the civilians that are killed when Hamas militants are being targeted, Israel cannot simply grant Hamas terrorists a free hand because civilians might be killed due to Hamas' intention on getting them killed for the sake of PR and so to recruit more propagandaists in the Western world and your argument that Israel should not commit strikes in Gaza is nonsensical.

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1. You forget that I class East Jerusalem as belonging to the West Bank and don't recognize the illegal Israeli annexation................ so my comment is not " a lie " it's an accurate description, as was my pointing out that there were no victims in Gaza because there are no settlers. Unless you know something I don't. How many in Gaza ?

2. It depends on when you think the occupation and dispossession/displacement of the Palestinians began . Prior to 1948 both sides committed terrorist acts. After it Israel occupied and eventually annexed a large part of the proposed Palestinian state.

3. Nope, the IDF are responsible for the people their missiles kill and maim

As per usual your post is wholly inaccurate with regards to the comments I make and is just an obvious attempt to discredit the messenger because you don't like the message. Hey ho , it's only to be expected tbh

oneworld2 said:

Nope, you did what you always do , which is to justify every violation of the Palestinians by the Israeli state on the grounds of self defence/population protection.

I don't see anything immoral in my positions though I do see plenty of immoral stuff in the positions you try to ascribe to me. I also see the constant use of inflammatory remarks aimed at inciting me........ that's not going to happen

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Not even one assertion in this passage happens to be true.

My argument isn't against Israels attempt to stop arms getting into Gaza. My comments show that I think the policy hasn't worked too well. I do disagree with many of the restrictions placed upon the people of Gaza as a result of the blockade and that's not the same thing.

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The blockade stops arms and regulates materials used by Hamas offensively for terror purposes, so yes simply saying that the blockade shouldn't be is taking exactly that kind of a position.

Same with the targeted killings/extra judicial slayings , I gave my opinions on what I think is wrong about them. I also posited the question of the farce of the occupation to protect civilians that actually places them in the most danger. You just can't bring yourself to comment on it for some reason

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The two aren't really related. The first is your claim that Israel is "slaughtering" innocents in Gaza while in reality it goes after terrorists who kill Gazan civilians by launching attacks at Israeli civilians from their surrounding, the second is a claim that because Israeli settlements exist it means somehow that the civilian population who are those settlers are used as human shields against the terrorists, neither claims make any kind of sense at all.

Of course people have the right to defend themselves from attempted murder , my comments never stated anything contrary to that. They did state that some of the attacks that people like you describe as " terrorism " are in fact legitimate acts of resistance against occupying military forces. I know why you don't want others to know about this distinction but there is a distinction to be made imo.

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You referred to the dozens of Palestinians killed in 2015, nearly all of them killed while attacking Israeli Jews, and used it as some kind of an argument against Israel's actions. That is exactly what arguing against people's right to defend themselves from attempted murder looks like; referring to those who attempted to murder them and got killed as some type of victims.

1. You forget that I class East Jerusalem as belonging to the West Bank and don't recognize the illegal Israeli annexation................ so my comment is not " a lie " it's an accurate description, as was my pointing out that there were no victims in Gaza because there are no settlers. Unless you know something I don't. How many in Gaza ?

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Huh? The majority of the attacks did not occur in the WB regardless of what you consider EJ to be, and I have no idea where I claimed that Gazan settlers were targeted or whatever.

2. It depends on when you think the occupation and dispossession/displacement of the Palestinians began . Prior to 1948 both sides committed terrorist acts. After it Israel occupied and eventually annexed a large part of the proposed Palestinian state.

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Palestinian terrorism existed since the early 20's of the last century and did not cease to exist ever since. The occupation began in 1967 after decades of Palestinian terrorism, it existed before the occupation and existed after it.

3. Nope, the IDF are responsible for the people their missiles kill and maim

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That is simply not true. The IDF are responsible not to target any innocent person, but if the IDF targets a Hamas terror target and it is revealed that a family was being hidden next to the target by Hamas then clearly the organization responsible for murdering (it's deliberate killing after all) the innocent family are the terror organization of Hamas. Assigning blame to the party that defends itself and its citizens from the terrorists and goes after them and not to the terrorists who deliberately led to the killing of innocents is wrong and immoral.

oneworld2 said:

I haven't " manipulated " any reality and I think the facts back up the claims I have made

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Yes you have, and you bring half facts with half truths

I was talking about cease fires with Hamas in case you hadn't noticed

In 2015 , according to a HRW report , Israeli forces had made 50 military incursions into Gaza as of late November of that year. Had killed 21 Palestinians , injured 100 more in air strikes and shooting at demonstrators , people in the Israeli imposed no go zone inside the strip and fishermen in Gazan coastal waters. Factor in the hardships faced by Palestinians due to the blockade , border points closures and restrictions/disqualifications from travel and what I claimed is thus substantiated in the report.

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here is an example how you manipulate reality with half truths. Almost all Israeli airstrikes in Gaza are retaliations to rockets fired from Gaza, rarely Israel acts in order to halt an attack it has inelegance on, and the so called demonstration you mentioned which had most fatalities was Palestinians who infiltrated into Israel.

But whilst we are on the subject let's see what it says about the WB. Remember these are the Palestinians you are supposed to be on good terms with, enjoying " diplomatic, economic, and security relations "

According to the report some 96 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces or settlers and 10,854 injured by them.

That's nearly 5 times as many people killed in the WB as have been killed in Gaza. And a staggering 100xs the number injured

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Here is another manipulation of reality. 96 Palestinians who tried to murder Israelis with knives, axes, molotov cocktails etc... were (surprise surprise) shot dead by Israeli security forces, I'm sorry that we don't roll over and die to please you.

In case you forgot , or just don't care , Israelis " enjoying peace " ( from rocket attack ) is not the only consideration worthy of note in this conflict.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/israel/palestine

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Not sure what your point here is, you just linked to an article which recycles all of the half truths you wrote earlier.

ido_ said:

Yes you have, and you bring half facts with half truths

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I get it now. All the human rights organisations are liars and anti-semites.

If people don't believe in the saint like conduct of Jewish people then they are , by definition , manipulators of reality

here is an example how you manipulate reality with half truths. Almost all Israeli airstrikes in Gaza are retaliations to rockets fired from Gaza, rarely Israel acts in order to halt an attack it has inelegance on, and the so called demonstration you mentioned which had most fatalities was Palestinians who infiltrated into Israel.

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I don't expect that it has ever crossed your mind that rocket attacks from Gaza are , or could be , connected to Israeli targeted killings or other acts against Palestinians. Like the hundreds of arrests and the killings that accompanied the Israeli operation after the 3 teenagers were kidnapped and killed.

And the demonstration I referred to was rock throwers and fence attackers being shot dead by combat troops

Here's one being shot for the grave crime of attempting to put a Palestinian flag on the fence

Oct.-Nov. 2015: Israeli military used live ammunition against protesters in Gaza Strip without justification | B'Tselem

Here is another manipulation of reality. 96 Palestinians who tried to murder Israelis with knives, axes, molotov cocktails etc... were (surprise surprise) shot dead by Israeli security forces, I'm sorry that we don't roll over and die to please you.

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I don't expect anyone to " roll over and die " but you seem to forget that its your own people that are occupying their territory and subjugating them. Violating their basic human rights on a daily basis for nigh on 50 years. Killing them in droves.

Do you honestly expect them to " roll over " in the face of that kind of treatment ?

You people also don't differentiate between legitimate attacks against the forces of an occupying army and acts of terrorism against civilian targets but defend the targeted killings of the forces on the opposite side.

In short you think you should have all of the rights and they should have none , obviously.

Fortunately other people , including the proper " liberals " of Israel and advocates of human rights around the world see things differently

Not sure what your point here is, you just linked to an article which recycles all of the half truths you wrote earlier.

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The point is obvious to any with a sense of justice and equality and has been shown to you again in the above.

You are right to retaliate , they are not .

You have the right to defence , they don't.

You have the right to self determination , they don't.

If you attack them , it's counterterrorism , if they attack you it's terrorism.

If you occupy them that's fine , if they react to it it's not.

You can enjoy your human rights , they can't have any because they are a threat

Such is the case when you think you have a divine right to lord it over another people

BTW I don't see any attempt by yourself to use links to back up your claims , so I take it you think I should just accept the fact that your words are the whole truth by definition of the fact that you are an Israeli

oneworld2 said:

I get it now. All the human rights organisations are liars and anti-semites.

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That's actually not that far from the truth.

If people don't believe in the saint like conduct of Jewish people then they are , by definition , manipulators of reality

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Well Israel handles itslef more morally, evidently, than any other nation in a state of war in the history of mankind. Attacking it as if it was the worst human rights violator out there while in reality the US, UK and others in the Western world learn from Israel how to conduct themselves morally during warfare and employ its own tactics in minimizing civilian casualties during warfare does indeed reveal naturally a strong manipulation of reality.

I don't expect that it has ever crossed your mind that rocket attacks from Gaza are , or could be , connected to Israeli targeted killings or other acts against Palestinians. Like the hundreds of arrests and the killings that accompanied the Israeli operation after the 3 teenagers were kidnapped and killed.

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Does that make the terrorists justified in targeting the civilians and the state unjustified in responding to them and targeting them? Not really, you fail to recognize the nature of the relationship between the terror organizations like Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and ISIS and the states defending the civilians they target.

And the demonstration I referred to was rock throwers and fence attackers being shot dead by combat troops

Here's one being shot for the grave crime of attempting to put a Palestinian flag on the fence

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Your point? Anyone who will attempt to touch or jump over the fence will be shot, it's not the border between Canada and the US it's the border between the Islamic terror group of Hamas and the Israeli civilians it targets, terrorists placing explosives on the fence there so to create breaches to allow them to execute terror attacks is a frequent matter, you're exposing just how ridiculous your standards are for a "bad behavior" of Israeli troops it's laughable.

I don't expect anyone to " roll over and die " but you seem to forget that its your own people that are occupying their territory and subjugating them. Violating their basic human rights on a daily basis for nigh on 50 years. Killing them in droves.

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No one is killing them in droves, that's empty propaganda and lies, since the last Gaza operation nearly all of the Palestinians who were killed were killed while attempting to murder Jews, your failure to recognize that fact proves just how eager you are to avoid reality so to defend your immoral positions that seek to take away the right of Jews to defend their lives from terrorists and allow those terrorists a free hand in murdering Jews, as Ido said correctly you're obviously expecting Israeli Jews to just roll over and die.

You are right to retaliate , they are not .

You have the right to defence , they don't.

If you attack them , it's counterterrorism , if they attack you it's terrorism.

If you occupy them that's fine , if they react to it it's not.

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Again your comments are just as ridiculous as complaining about the French airforce targeting ISIS members claiming "why is it wrong when ISIS members massacre civilians but not wrong when you target ISIS members", it's laughable and absurd and reveals how invested you are in manipulating reality.

Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorists as anyone else do. If a Jewish or Christian or whatever person will attack Palestinian civilians will the Palestinian security forces have no right to defend themselves and shoot that guy down? I doubt you would think so, it seems different when dealing with Jews however as you believe Israel has no right to target terrorists attacking Jews as you have revealed is your position on more than one or ten occasions.

By the way yet again you have chosen to avoid replying to my comment.

oneworld2 said:

I get it now. All the human rights organisations are liars and anti-semites.

If people don't believe in the saint like conduct of Jewish people then they are , by definition , manipulators of reality

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The facts that were given are correct, but they tell half a story. We read about 50 Israeli airstrikes, and the author expects us to think, wow those blood thirsty jews, the author fails to give the background for the attacks which are most retaliations for Palestinian attacks. Jews are not saints, they are no better than any other people, or at least western world people, but they are also not worse as you try to paint them. Israeli army invests at least the same effort (if not even more) that any other western army inverts in minimizing civilian casualties and persecuting war crimes.

I don't expect that it has ever crossed your mind that rocket attacks from Gaza are , or could be , connected to Israeli targeted killings or other acts against Palestinians. Like the hundreds of arrests and the killings that accompanied the Israeli operation after the 3 teenagers were kidnapped and killed.

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So you agree Israeli actions are retaliations for Palestinian aggression, good.

And the demonstration I referred to was rock throwers and fence attackers being shot dead by combat troops

Here's one being shot for the grave crime of attempting to put a Palestinian flag on the fence

Oct.-Nov. 2015: Israeli military used live ammunition against protesters in Gaza Strip without justification | B'Tselem

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I'm well aware of the demonstration you are talking about, it was a few dozen Palestinians who charged the border and few of them even tried \ succeeded in crossing it. And yes, I believe Palestinians who try to infiltrate Israel should be shot, what exactly is the problem with that?

I don't expect anyone to " roll over and die " but you seem to forget that its your own people that are occupying their territory and subjugating them. Violating their basic human rights on a daily basis for nigh on 50 years. Killing them in droves.

Do you honestly expect them to " roll over " in the face of that kind of treatment ?

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I expect them to stop murdering Israelis and face the consequences if they go on with their violent ways.

You people also don't differentiate between legitimate attacks against the forces of an occupying army and acts of terrorism against civilian targets but defend the targeted killings of the forces on the opposite side.
In short you think you should have all of the rights and they should have none , obviously.
Fortunately other people , including the proper " liberals " of Israel and advocates of human rights around the world see things differently

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You don't have a clue what I think and don't pretend to know otherwise, if you are interested you can ask me what I believe and I'd be happy to share but don't put words in my mouth.
Most of the people in Israel doesn't differentiate between actions against civilians and against military personal, that is correct. I wouldn't define actions against military personal as terrorism but that doesnt mean I think Palestinians have a right to murder Israeli soldiers. An Israeli soldier who has a Palestinian maniac charging at him with a knife has every right to shot him dead, thats called self defence

You are right to retaliate , they are not.

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Saying terrorists have a right to retaliate is like saying criminals have a right to shoot down police officers who come to arrest them

You have the right to defence , they don't.

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Innocent people have a right for self defense

You have the right to self determination , they don't.

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They have a right for self determination, if they renounced terror they'd already have that decades ago

If you attack them , it's counterterrorism , if they attack you it's terrorism.

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If you target civilians its called terrorism, if you target terrorists its called counter terrorism

If you occupy them that's fine , if they react to it it's not.

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Its not fine, but its a necessity due to the fact many of them are interested in murdering Jews

You can enjoy your human rights , they can't have any because they are a threat

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Palestinians enjoy human rights, probably more than any other Arab nation, at least those in the West Bank

Such is the case when you think you have a divine right to lord it over another people

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I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any divine fairy tale.

oneworld2 said:

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?

Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End? | The Huffington Post

With the topic of rocket fire from Gaza once again being discussed in another thread here, I thought it as good a time as any to introduce this study of the ceasefire violations between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

People might be surprised to know that the study clearly shows that it is the Israeli side that are the serial violators of ceasefire agreements between the two sides

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The "yardstick" was when one side KILLED a member of the other side. Not assaulted. Not struck. Not knifed. Not a non-fatal attack. KILLED.

Hmmmm

Non-fatal bombing maims people but would not rate as a "break" in the peace...

Kerem Shalom suicide bombing = Three Palestinian suicide bombers broke through the border fence to attack the Kerem Shalom IDF post, blowing themselves up and wounding several Israeli soldiers. Hamas claimed responsibility. - NOPE - Does not count

2016 Jerusalem bus bombing = 20 injured. A member of Hamas was involved - NOPE - Does not count

But if the IDF kill someone trying to attack Israelis - YEP

Seems a bit skewed.

oneworld2 said:

Well , maybe it's worth clearing somethings up that were mentioned in the article.

Rocket attacks from Gaza are not just carried out by Hamas. So when Hamas agrees to a ceasefire it has to try to stop other factions from undermining it. No easy task imo and the fact that they kept it down to 1 rocket per month for 3 out of the 4 months prior to the outbreak of hostilities says that they can make a significant difference to holding others in check as well as their own.

Another thing worth factoring in is that regardless of attacks on Israel and any ceasefire situations at any given time , Palestinians continue to be harassed , arrested , detained and killed by the IDF/Border forces.

In other words, violence seems only to be considered unacceptable by the majority/media coverage in the West when Israelis come under fire and when they react disproportionally to it, whilst the constant trickle deaths of Palestinians doesn't appear to engender much , if any , of a response here

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From YOUR source:

First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.

Truth fail.

Fledermaus said:

From YOUR source:

First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.

Truth fail.

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What's not truthful ?

Fledermaus said:

The "yardstick" was when one side KILLED a member of the other side. Not assaulted. Not struck. Not knifed. Not a non-fatal attack. KILLED.

Hmmmm

Non-fatal bombing maims people but would not rate as a "break" in the peace...

Kerem Shalom suicide bombing = Three Palestinian suicide bombers broke through the border fence to attack the Kerem Shalom IDF post, blowing themselves up and wounding several Israeli soldiers. Hamas claimed responsibility. - NOPE - Does not count

2016 Jerusalem bus bombing = 20 injured. A member of Hamas was involved - NOPE - Does not count

But if the IDF kill someone trying to attack Israelis - YEP

Seems a bit skewed.

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You have to have some yardstick and it can be applied the other way too

IE Israeli settler shoots a Palestinian but he didn't die

Or IDF soldier shoots a kid throwing stones but they didn't die

I would have thought the above is obvious

oneworld2 said:

You have to have some yardstick and it can be applied the other way too

IE Israeli settler shoots a Palestinian but he didn't die

Or IDF soldier shoots a kid throwing stones but they didn't die

I would have thought the above is obvious

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Skewed is skewed is skewed.

Lets tally up ATTACKS rather than FATALITIES.

oneworld2 said:

What's not truthful ?

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They can control the rockets. It matters not who was firing them.

ido_ said:

The facts that were given are correct, but they tell half a story. We read about 50 Israeli airstrikes, and the author expects us to think, wow those blood thirsty jews, the author fails to give the background for the attacks which are most retaliations for Palestinian attacks. Jews are not saints, they are no better than any other people, or at least western world people, but they are also not worse as you try to paint them. Israeli army invests at least the same effort (if not even more) that any other western army inverts in minimizing civilian casualties and persecuting war crimes.

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Where you decided to change the context has given rise to your , imo , false accusations

You began by stating that there are two factions of the Palestinians. One in Gaza that you have no relationship with and one in the WB that you do

When I stated that more Palestinians were being killed/injured by Israelis in the WB than in Gaza you suddenly decided to go on your rant about telling " half truthes " etc etc not giving the full context etc etc

That the " author " wants everyone to think that the " Jews are just bloodthirsty " maniacs when the report discuses Palestinian violence/attacks against Israelis and Palestinians themselves. So your claim is pure fantasy.

Some Israeli attacks are in retaliation to Palestinian actions some Palestinian attacks are in retaliation to Israeli actions. Citing one specific incident doesn't change that imo

Kudos to you for at least acknowledging that Palestinian attacks against occupying soldiers should not be seen in the same light as their attacks against Israeli civilians. You only have to look at the posts here to recognize just how rare that is , so hats off to ya on that

The rest of your post , imo , is just standard Israeli bias for the most part

I think that Atheism is the only thing we might have in common , which is fine by me