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Video shows Israeli soldier shooting an attack suspect lying in street

matchlight said:
The problem with sticking to the rules when the people who are trying to kill you habitually ignore them is that it puts you at a big disadvantage
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Sure. The wicked have a strategic advantage over the just, due to their wickedness. Doesn't make wickedness ok.

no one can be bound to an agreement the other party has breached.
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Your understanding of the force of law, is rather erroneous. Law is not reducible to an agreement between private parties.
 
Paleocon said:
Your understanding of the force of law, is rather erroneous.
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Maybe, but it was good enough for me to pass the California bar exam.

Law is not reducible to an agreement between private parties.
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I never suggested it was. I think the comparison between breach by one party as an excuse for the other party's failure to perform in contract law, on one hand, and failure to abide by the laws of war as an excuse for the other side's failure to abide by them, on the other, is valid. For example, although it would normally be a war crime to attack a school, hospital, church, or other such site, but if a combatant starts using that site as a fire base, the side being fired on may then legitimately return fire on it. You're not required to sit there and be killed--gentility does not extend that far. At least not in my book. Not in Winston Churchill's, either. That is why he seriously considered using anthrax bombs against German cities, if the Germans continued to launch missiles that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civilians.
 
Thoughts are ?

Soldiers are not policemen. Cops are trained to have much better fire discipline.

Soldiers kill the enemy. If you send them in, then you need to expect these results.
 
He obviously committed some form of homicide offense. I think arguing over that fact is ridiculous. I just happen to sympathize with him and loathe the victim. Therefore I hope there is leniency once the furore dies down.
 
matchlight said:
Maybe, but it was good enough for me to pass the California bar exam.
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I'm aware that you're a lawyer. Doesn't change the fact that your argument here is based upon premises that have no foundation in law.

I never suggested it was. I think the comparison between breach by one party as an excuse for the other party's failure to perform in contract law, on one hand, and failure to abide by the laws of war as an excuse for the other side's failure to abide by them, on the other, is valid.
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It's not valid, because the enemy in wartime doesn't have the authority to dispense from the laws of war, whereas parties to a contract may dispense each other from the contract. Consequently the fact that a breach of contract dispenses the other party doesn't mean that a war crime dispenses the other party to commit war crimes.

For example, although it would normally be a war crime to attack a school, hospital, church, or other such site, but if a combatant starts using that site as a fire base, the side being fired on may then legitimately return fire on it. You're not required to sit there and be killed--gentility does not extend that far. At least not in my book.
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If a specific school, hospital, etc. was being used as a fire base, then it is a legitimate military target; but the fact an army is using such a site as a fire base does not give the other side blanket justification to attack schools and hospitals generally.

Not in Winston Churchill's, either. That is why he seriously considered using anthrax bombs against German cities, if the Germans continued to launch missiles that were indiscriminately slaughtering British civilians.
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I'm aware that Churchill was a consequentialist, although k was not aware of that specific fact. Suffice to say, it is to the benefit of the honor of the British Empire that he never put that idea into practice.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The Israeli state's attitude toward Palestinian life has never been poorer. Unconditional support feeds it.
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Funny. While the Palestinians and their leadership openly support sending their kids into Israel to stab civilians and then glorifies those terrorist murderers, the Israelis immediately arrest a soldier that does not abide by its rules.

And your take-away from that is that it is the Israeli state which is the problem in all this.
 
matchlight said:
Stabbing a uniformed Israeli soldier is an act of war. If a uniformed soldier of some other nation had done it, he would have been entitled to be taken prisoner and well treated. But the Arab who almost certainly did this stabbing was not in uniform and not a lawful combatant. The laws of war generally do not protect unlawful enemy combatants.
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The soldier violated Israel's rules of engagement, which are more important than what the "rules of war" are for attacking non-uniformed enemy combatants.

Israel's rules are intended to go well beyond what is legal from an international law perspective and consider both the moral foundation of the state and the greater implications of localized conduct on the overall welfare of the state.

This soldier clearly violated his instructions and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law as a clear message to others. There is no more clear cut violation than what we see here.
 
JANFU said:
Video shows Israeli soldier shooting attack suspect - CNN.com


Thoughts are?
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'Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu also weighed in with the following statement: "What happened today in Hebron does not represent the values of the IDF. The IDF expects its soldiers to behave level-headedly and in accordance with the rules of engagement."'

Right on. Now if Abbas would just stop referring to the terrorists that are stabbing Jews as "martyrs" and show the kind of responsibility Netanyahu has demonstrated here, that would be really swell.
 
truthatallcost said:
Look janfu, this is Israel we're talking, not Canada. They don't have time to play footsies with terrorists.
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Yes they do, and that was the decision Israel's civilian (and military) leadership had made.

This soldier does not have the authority or the moral right to ignore the civilian and military leadership to do whatever he wanted.
 
What the IDF soldier did was wrong in many ways, but it is the price you pay when they go after soldiers like the dead guy did. He rolled the dice and came up craps. Emotions take over very fast when soldiers and sailors loose their brethren.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
The soldier violated Israel's rules of engagement, which are more important than what the "rules of war" are for attacking non-uniformed enemy combatants.

Israel's rules are intended to go well beyond what is legal from an international law perspective and consider both the moral foundation of the state and the greater implications of localized conduct on the overall welfare of the state.

This soldier clearly violated his instructions and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law as a clear message to others. There is no more clear cut violation than what we see here.
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Israel is free to set whatever rules for its servicemen it sees fit, and how it deals with this man does not concern me. I just hope the next one who kills a wounded terrorist is more careful about being seen.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The Israeli state's attitude toward Palestinian life has never been poorer. Unconditional support feeds it.
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Your post is so random and unrelated to the facts of the thread one could be forgiven for wondering if it was bot-generated. Two Palestinians stabbed people, they were shot, an IDF soldier shot one of them as he was already on the ground, and the soldier was roundly condemned and is being investigated. How does your post fit with regards to these facts?
 
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matchlight said:
Israel is free to set whatever rules for its servicemen it sees fit, and how it deals with this man does not concern me. I just hope the next one who kills a wounded terrorist is more careful about being seen.
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It will happen again. Sending young people into this type carnage every day will result in these types of scenarios from time to time. All the sensitivity training, rules of engagement training, or even the best possible leadership cannot stop things like this.
 
matchlight said:
Israel is free to set whatever rules for its servicemen it sees fit, and how it deals with this man does not concern me. I just hope the next one who kills a wounded terrorist is more careful about being seen.
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They would ahve been charged even if there were no cameras.

And I do hope that Israel's soldiers make Israel's efforts to defend itself easier, not harder.

Soldiers who do this sort of think make Israel's job harder.
 
RetiredUSN said:
It will happen again. Sending young people into this type carnage every day will result in these types of scenarios from time to time. All the sensitivity training, rules of engagement training, or even the best possible leadership cannot stop things like this.
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Well, considering the rarity of this sort of blatant disregard for the rules in spite of decades of continuous Palestinian incitement, terrorism and celebration of terrorists, I think Israel's training and rules regime has worked extremely well and to its credit.

Can't get rid of it entirely, sure, but they need to keep addressing any deficiencies they find to make these events as rare as possible. This kid has ruined his life because he didn't follow the rules, all the while harming Israel's national security position. And killing someone who at the time was not a threat to anyone.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Well, considering the rarity of this sort of blatant disregard for the rules in spite of decades of continuous Palestinian incitement, terrorism and celebration of terrorists, I think Israel's training and rules regime has worked extremely well and to its credit.

Can't get rid of it entirely, sure, but they need to keep addressing any deficiencies they find to make these events as rare as possible. This kid has ruined his life because he didn't follow the rules, all the while harming Israel's national security position. And killing someone who at the time was not a threat to anyone.
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Who was defending it? I said that it will happen. People some times lose their minds when they are under these situations. There is a big difference between not following rules because of indifference, and losing your mind.

PTSD
 
RetiredUSN said:
Who was defending it? I said that it will happen. People some times lose their minds when they are under these situations. There is a big difference between not following rules because of indifference, and losing your mind.

PTSD
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Sorry, don't think I said and didn't mean to imply you were defending it.
 
Andalublue said:
Don't be taken in by the hoax, Polgara. He's doing no such thing.

Suit said to be a hoax
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Greetings, Andalublue. :2wave:

I'm glad you posted the link! :thumbs: Since so many things about this year have been strange so far, it would not have been a surprise to learn the story was true. It is interesting that criminals even victimize each other, though, assuming he was not in on the hoax! :mrgreen:
 
PeteEU said:
Only reason he is detained is that it was caught on camera.
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You are wrong, he was detained before the footage was released, his CO filed a complaint right after the incident
 
ido_ said:
You are wrong, he was detained before the footage was released, his CO filed a complaint right after the incident
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No I am not. This kind of abuse happens all the time and yet few get busted for it. The only reason he was, was that there was video. It is the "we dont use human shields" thing all over again.
 
PeteEU said:
No I am not. This kind of abuse happens all the time and yet few get busted for it. The only reason he was, was that there was video. It is the "we dont use human shields" thing all over again.
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Again, you are wrong, he was detained before the video was released.
 
ido said:
You are wrong, he was detained before the footage was released, his CO filed a complaint right after the incident
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PeteEU said:
No I am not. This kind of abuse happens all the time and yet few get busted for it. The only reason he was, was that there was video. It is the "we dont use human shields" thing all over again.
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Ido, it is very important you do not let facts get in the way when making arguments. Sure the fact is that the CO filed a complaint before he knew about the video, but the video clearly caused him to report it even though he didn't know it existed, because there are supposedly other similar events (which we need no proof of), which prove that it must have been the video that the CO knew nothing about which caused the CO do Do Something.

And all of this is clearly true, because Israel is evil.
 
ido_ said:
Again, you are wrong, he was detained before the video was released.
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Again you dont seem to want to understand. The point is not when he was detained relative to the video being released, it was the fact there was a video at all. The IDF has learned from the "we dont use human shields" scandal and got out in front of the game. Had there been no video.. he would not have been detained.
 
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