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Israel's Legal Founding [W:89]

What if...? said:
"Palestinians" didn't invade.

They ran away from the fighting like civilians always do.

And Israel didn't let them come back.

And I don't agree that the world should have to put up with the nonsense it does so that people can create an artificial permanent majority state for themselves at others' expense.

The early Israelis had a chance to assimilate in that area. Others had. But they were dicks. Obviously planning to run the other people there out.

And the Israelis did not accept the borders they were allotted. They grabbed whatever extra they thought they deserved right off the bat.

You cannot deny that there are and always have been Israelis who believe they are entitled to all of "historic" Israel and have been working to get it from before day one.

Israel was born of original sin. They have sorta acknowledged it. They made the bed they lie in. From the choice to its implementation to its maintenance. They **** with the Palestinians relentlessly, like a little girl pestering her brother till he hits her so she can tattle.

I believe the evidence of my senses and history. States misbehave. I am not one of those who rails against the president for apologizing for our past misdeeds. We DID do some bad things. Everybody knows it. Admitting it allows us to move forward.

And just as an aside, y'all are genetically the same as the people you are occupying. All of this is just a continuance of the "we know what jahweh REALLY wants" nonsense the world has been dealing with for millennia.

All this strife trying to please a deadbeat dad.

And I hope the native Americans don't find a superpower strong enough to back them in taking back America. According to Israel they would have the right.
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I was referring to the 1948 war which you seem to not be familiar with and it was most definitely an act of war and an act of invasion.

You may consider Israel's creation and existence a bad thing as long as you wish to it doesn't make it so and it doesn't make your position anything close to being moral.

The Palestinians commit terrorism and hence Israel has a right to defend its citizens against said terrorism - your refusal to recognize that terrorism is never justified exposes beyond any doubt that your positions are truly immoral and that there is no attempt here to achieve a valid, logical conclusion on any issue.

Also, at this point you're just stating outright lies ("According to Israel...", "The Israelis did not accept the borders...", etc.) so you'll have to really ask yourself what does it mean when you have to lie here so to be able to maintain those positions.
 
Apocalypse said:
I was referring to the 1948 war which you seem to not be familiar with and it was most definitely an act of war and an act of invasion.

You may consider Israel's creation and existence a bad thing as long as you wish to it doesn't make it so and it doesn't make your position anything close to being moral.

The Palestinians commit terrorism and hence Israel has a right to defend its citizens against said terrorism - your refusal to recognize that terrorism is never justified exposes beyond any doubt that your positions are truly immoral and that there is no attempt here to achieve a valid, logical conclusion on any issue.

Also, at this point you're just stating outright lies ("According to Israel...", "The Israelis did not accept the borders...", etc.) so you'll have to really ask yourself what does it mean when you have to lie here so to be able to maintain those positions.
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I was talking about the 1948 war. The actual history, not the origin myth.

The invasion by OTHER COUNTRIES.

No real "good guy/bad guy" dichotomy up til then. Both sides did the other dirty.

When the 700,000 plus palestinian residents fled or were driven out and not allowed to return.

And when they grabbed dirt at the inception because they believed what the UN alloted them wasn't contiguous enough. Not a lie. Just the actual history.

The actual letters and diaries of the players are out, they discuss the cynical plans and the israeli response is everything played out exactly as planned completely coincidentally.

I'm working off accepted history. I know it isn't as heroic as the myth. Reality rarely is.

I don't hate Jewish people, I married one.

Don't care what kind of funny hats people wear.

How they treat others matters to me. So I don't approve of terrorism. Its cowardly. So is using ones overwhelming military superiority to make a countries original residents' lives untenable. So they will leave.

That's why Israels policy towards the Palestinians has ALWAYS been "every time they plant a seed, we say kill it before it grows." "Facts on the ground" and all that.

It is what it is. I don't really care. I just come here and waste time arguing against well designed propaganda produced by a nation that depends on American public opinion for survival from time to time.

It IS simply a fact that creating a racist state, which forging a permanent Jewish majority is, after all, required breaking a few eggs. I doubt the world would allow it now.
 
What if...? said:
I was talking about the 1948 war. The actual history, not the origin myth.

The invasion by OTHER COUNTRIES.

No real "good guy/bad guy" dichotomy up til then. Both sides did the other dirty.

When the 700,000 plus palestinian residents fled or were driven out and not allowed to return.

And when they grabbed dirt at the inception because they believed what the UN alloted them wasn't contiguous enough. Not a lie. Just the actual history.

The actual letters and diaries of the players are out, they discuss the cynical plans and the israeli response is everything played out exactly as planned completely coincidentally.

I'm working off accepted history. I know it isn't as heroic as the myth. Reality rarely is.

I don't hate Jewish people, I married one.

Don't care what kind of funny hats people wear.
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Completely irrelevant to the discussion. All of it.

How they treat others matters to me. So I don't approve of terrorism. Its cowardly. So is using ones overwhelming military superiority to make a countries original residents' lives untenable. So they will leave.
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It's good that you say you don't approve of terrorism but do realize that your position will be the immoral one as long as you claim that Israel has no right to oppose said terrorism and when you condemn some of the most legitimate acts taken to secure the safety of civilians such as entering homes of Palestinian families looking for suspects. If you condemn these kind of actions you cannot claim that your position is in favor of human lives on the Israeli side, it's really as simple as it can get.

As to your reference to Israel willing to occupy the West Bank so to have its Palestinian residents leave that's just an absurd thought, completely removed from any logical basis or proper thought.

That's why Israels policy towards the Palestinians has ALWAYS been "every time they plant a seed, we say kill it before it grows." "Facts on the ground" and all that.
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I don't understand what you're even referring to here.

It is what it is. I don't really care. I just come here and waste time arguing against well designed propaganda produced by a nation that depends on American public opinion for survival from time to time.

It IS simply a fact that creating a racist state, which forging a permanent Jewish majority is, after all, required breaking a few eggs. I doubt the world would allow it now.
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Israel is not a racist state, and I don't really find it relevant what your opinion about the world's public opinion or America's public opinion is. What you call a well designed propaganda is the obvious and simple truth and if you choose to reject it you do so without providing a single logical explanation or any kind of justification at all. As I already stated the fact that you require yourself to state outright lies so to maintain these positions of yours show and prove just how senseless they truly are, in addition to showing how righteous the positions that oppose these, are.
 
Apocalypse said:
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. All of it.



It's good that you say you don't approve of terrorism but do realize that your position will be the immoral one as long as you claim that Israel has no right to oppose said terrorism and when you condemn some of the most legitimate acts taken to secure the safety of civilians such as entering homes of Palestinian families looking for suspects. If you condemn these kind of actions you cannot claim that your position is in favor of human lives on the Israeli side, it's really as simple as it can get.

As to your reference to Israel willing to occupy the West Bank so to have its Palestinian residents leave that's just an absurd thought, completely removed from any logical basis or proper thought.



I don't understand what you're even referring to here.



Israel is not a racist state, and I don't really find it relevant what your opinion about the world's public opinion or America's public opinion is. What you call a well designed propaganda is the obvious and simple truth and if you choose to reject it you do so without providing a single logical explanation or any kind of justification at all. As I already stated the fact that you require yourself to state outright lies so to maintain these positions of yours show and prove just how senseless they truly are, in addition to showing how righteous the positions that oppose these, are.
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Simply saying I'm lying doesn't make it so.

Nothing I'm talking about is a secret or wild conspiracy.

Its in the Zionists' (the Israeli founders, not the "elders of Zion") own words how they would go about it, and it's how it played out.

The most poignant appeal I saw was that these things should not be disseminated because it might cause foreign Jews to stop supporting Israel.

America had a dirty birth. We did the natives wrong. Happens mostly when a much stronger group enters into conflict with a weaker one for the same resources.

Its the whitewashing, the refusal to accept any responsibility for the situation, that annoys.
 
CJ 2.0 said:
Which is why it is useful to see whether the "natives" are, you know, actually engaged in terrorism, like targeting civilians for murder to effect political ends.

Anybody can be anything if the meaning of words is malleable. So sure, "freedom fighters" can be folks who stab little babies in their cribs while organizations that blow up munitions dumps and attack soldiers can be "terrorists", but only if we change the underlying meaning of the words "terrorist" and "freedom fighter".
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Yeah, you're kind of drifting there. I entered the plantation, because that is really what Israel has become. Many many people have migrated there, well, to be in Zion... and as a result of that expansionism, native people have been displaced and wars have erupted as a result.

What if the American Indians for instance had been treated with great respect and were paid well for land, or helped greatly in staying on their land and (we) had settled around them? What do you think the differences would have been up to today? Same thing for the Irish. The king of England usurped then entire island and out right killed anybody that didn't welcome him: the Irish (Indians) won that battle by the way.
 
What if...? said:
Simply saying I'm lying doesn't make it so.
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You were stating outright lies as I pointed two posts ago.

Nothing I'm talking about is a secret or wild conspiracy.

Its in the Zionists' (the Israeli founders, not the "elders of Zion") own words how they would go about it, and it's how it played out.

The most poignant appeal I saw was that these things should not be disseminated because it might cause foreign Jews to stop supporting Israel.

America had a dirty birth. We did the natives wrong. Happens mostly when a much stronger group enters into conflict with a weaker one for the same resources.

Its the whitewashing, the refusal to accept any responsibility for the situation, that annoys.
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Not only that you refuse to recognize history as it was, you choose to claim that Israel has no right to defend itself from terrorsim and that's where you're mostly wrong, moral-wise and logically.
 
Apocalypse said:
You were stating outright lies as I pointed two posts ago.



Not only that you refuse to recognize history as it was, you choose to claim that Israel has no right to defend itself from terrorsim and that's where you're mostly wrong, moral-wise and logically.
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At no point did I say Israel had no right to defend itself from terrorism.

More like it is reaping the whirlwind from its own actions.

And again, saying I'm lying doesn't make me a liar. Simply calling my points lies is a pretty weak tactic.

My points are based on the research of the New Historians, which even Israel has grudgingly accepted parts of.

Lots of stuff came out due to freedom of information laws in Israel.

It paints a different picture that the original origin myth, supported by extensive research. Diaries and letters from Israel's founders are particularly damning, and their apologists' denials laughable.

You haven't refuted any claims. You have called me a liar without a lick of proof. You have restated my position incorrectly multiple times.

I am bored now.
 
What if...? said:
At no point did I say Israel had no right to defend itself from terrorism.
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You have, when you've condemned some of the most legitimate actions taken to defend Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism in your previous posts, one of them being entering homes arresting suspects. Unless you take your words back I don't see what changed here.

More like it is reaping the whirlwind from its own actions.
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That too is a very immoral statement. Terrorism is never justified and as long as you don't recognize it your position will remain the immoral one.

And again, saying I'm lying doesn't make me a liar.
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I have pointed out the remarks you have made that were outright lies three posts ago and you still haven't based any of those statements so I don't see how anything changed.

My points are based on the research of the New Historians, which even Israel has grudgingly accepted parts of.
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The lies I pointed out are based on nothing, feel free to try and prove otherwise.

It paints a different picture that the original origin myth, supported by extensive research. Diaries and letters from Israel's founders are particularly damning, and their apologists' denials laughable.
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Calling those who confront lies and use logic and actual historical facts to debunk said nonsense "apologists" is a very weak tactic.

You haven't refuted any claims. You have called me a liar without a lick of proof. You have restated my position incorrectly multiple times.
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If you wish to prove what you said are not lies you are free to do so by basing those statements, you've done no such thing so far and I don't understand what you are trying to achieve by claiming that I require proof to show that your words do not rely on reality and indeed they have nothing to do with it. This simply shows how unwilling you are to show that what you said is true, which brings me back to the question I've asked several times now; If your position requires you to promote lies - how can you claim it is a good position to hold? You absolutely cannot.
 
Apocalypse said:
You have, when you've condemned some of the most legitimate actions taken to defend Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism in your previous posts, one of them being entering homes arresting suspects. Unless you take your words back I don't see what changed here.



That too is a very immoral statement. Terrorism is never justified and as long as you don't recognize it your position will remain the immoral one.



I have pointed out the remarks you have made that were outright lies three posts ago and you still haven't based any of those statements so I don't see how anything changed.



The lies I pointed out are based on nothing, feel free to try and prove otherwise.



Calling those who confront lies and use logic and actual historical facts to debunk said nonsense "apologists" is a very weak tactic.



If you wish to prove what you said are not lies you are free to do so by basing those statements, you've done no such thing so far and I don't understand what you are trying to achieve by claiming that I require proof to show that your words do not rely on reality and indeed they have nothing to do with it. This simply shows how unwilling you are to show that what you said is true, which brings me back to the question I've asked several times now; If your position requires you to promote lies - how can you claim it is a good position to hold? You absolutely cannot.
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I suspect you are familiar with the work of the New Historians. It has caused a huge stink. It is a fact that some of it has made its way into Israeli high school courses and has actually been actually acknowledged by Israeli leaders.

Its way to much to rehash, so if you AREN'T familiar, look up "New Historians" on Google.

As I said, I'm bored now.
 
What if...? said:
I suspect you are familiar with the work of the New Historians. It has caused a huge stink. It is a fact that some of it has made its way into Israeli high school courses and has actually been actually acknowledged by Israeli leaders.
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If you're willing to point specifically what was acknowledged by Israeli leaders and generally what it is you are even talking about I would gladly provide you with my opinion. I don't know what you expect me to refer to when you simply throw empty general statements into the air.

As I said, I'm bored now.
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I failed to point it the last time you said that so I'll point it now; I could not care less what your status of bordeom is at any given moment. I trust this will be the last time you will inform me of it since it's apparent that until this very point you were certain that I do care.
 
 
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(Ran out of time to edit my post)

I'm just gonna leave this here and see what happens.

Israel and the world: Us and them
BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations
As Much of the World Frowns on Israel, Americans Hold Out Support
How Israel is losing Europe
Why do most people in the world support Palestine and not Israel?
Why Does the World Hate Israel?
Israel low in global popularity ranking
Why Is Israel Unpopular?
Britain still arming Israel despite fear weapons will be used against Gaza
When did Britain lose faith in Israel?
Anger as UK moves to ban Israeli settlement boycott
Debunking Israel's 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas, and War Crimes
The cowardice at the heart of our relationship with Israel
NY Times: UNSC resolution may be best step to resolve Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Time for a Sensible International Effort on Israel-Palestine
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict (read #7 all the way to the end)

That last link should sum up why I think both sides need to quit living in the stone age, grow up, shake hands, and get along. It may be difficult, but it's not impossible.
 
Abbazorkzog said:
I'm just gonna leave this here and see what happens.

Israel and the world: Us and them
BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations
As Much of the World Frowns on Israel, Americans Hold Out Support
How Israel is losing Europe
Why do most people in the world support Palestine and not Israel?
Why Does the World Hate Israel?
Israel low in global popularity ranking
Why Is Israel Unpopular?
Britain still arming Israel despite fear weapons will be used against Gaza
When did Britain lose faith in Israel?
Anger as UK moves to ban Israeli settlement boycott
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Moderator's Warning:
Please don't do this again. In addition to the global Forum Rules, the Debate Politics Moderator Team manages the Middle East Forum under a regimen known as Martial Law (ML). This is a zero-tolerance ruleset coupled with enhanced consequences. Post content must remain strictly on OP-topic at all times and the topic of this thread is "Israel's Legal Founding." If you wish to open a discussion on one of the topics in your links you are free to do so, but you will need to start your own thread rather than derailing this one. Thanks for understanding.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/99774-me-forum-martial-law-concordance.html
 
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