UN chief: Israeli settlements an 'affront' to the international community

[justabubba]

The occupied territories legitimately belong to Israel now. Calling them "occupied" is a tactic to try and force Israel to return them to the aggressors, which would be wrong.

Yes, there are settlements in those areas, but again, that's fine since they belong to Israel. According to the strategic geography of the land, however, Israel would be at risk, once again, were she to return those areas to the arabs. It's simply not feasible, although certain portions have already been relinquished.



You're wrong about that. Israel is slowly normalizing relations with some Arab nations, and your comment that they are "western maintained client dictatorships" is irrelevant.

But, just to play devil's advocate for a moment -- let's say you were correct. That would demonstrate that Israel's need to maintain its borders and a strong military is vital to their survival.

At any rate - peace is ongoing process. If Arab nations want it -- they will accept that Israel exists and that she will always exist. They will not ask for a return to pre-67 borders and they will not pursue a right-of-return.

Where the borders are right now is where they are going to stay. The sooner everyone accepts that -- the sooner we can move toward a more lasting peace.

do you have any cite which tells us the government of israel claims the occupied territories to now be the property of israel
or is what you have presented your personal opinion

 

[HowardBThiname]

do you have any cite which tells us the government of israel claims the occupied territories to now be the property of israel
or is what you have presented your personal opinion

Over there have been many proposals, compromises for determining ownership and the final borders. There is the Golan Heights Law, that claims Israel has the right to govern that territory.

The UN rejects nearly everything Israel proposes, but then again - no one pays a lot of attention to the UN. The US won't even vote when the UN puts up those kinds of proposals. It's meaningless.

 

[HowardBThiname]

I am not sure what you are talking about and how this is relevant, did you not claim just now that the territories belong to Israel as it has "won" them in war? do you dispute that not giving non Jews equal rights in Israel (which includes, according to you, the West Bank and Jerusalem) a form of racism?

I was responding to your claim that no countries accept that the territories should belong to Israel. I showed that to be incorrect, at least in part, by surrounding nations being willing to negotiate the borders.

*The Egyptian dictatorship you mean.

No, I don't mean that. Sisi was elected, whether or not you think the election to be valid.

Egypt, while it is better than some of the other Arab nations, has a problem. It has a large - a very large - group of citizens who are staunch Muslims. Mubarak ran the country well. Morsi nearly killed it. Now, Sisi is trying to put the pieces back together. Only those who want a religious government oppose Sisi, and if they do oppose him, they're probably not fit to run a government anyway.

They haven't so far and there is no indication that they will in the near or distant future, on the contrary.

Actually, yes they have. And, there is every indication they will continue to moderate and join the civilized world. Hardliner Arabs who want to see Israel destroyed are dying off. Nature has a way of doing that. The old and bitter ones die and the new and better ones are born. The Arab nations are not going to stop progressing, and as they do so - they will accept Israel and then, they will trade and one day be on good terms. Yes, many of the old bitter ones must die before that happens, but it's happening. Change is inevitable.

You overly estimate Israel's actual importance to the rest of the world.

Seeing as it gives us nobel winners in the sciences annually, no, I don't think I'm over estimating its importance. When we start seeing the same numbers, percentage-wise, from the Arab nations, perhaps we'll have something to talk about.

You should inform the rest of humanity on the virtues of this racist state, given the fact it repeatedly polls as being among the lest popular countries worldwide.

You're confusing racism with ethnocentrism.

The conflict is at its worst these days, and the larger middle east is increasingly less stable and more volatile. I am not sure what you are smoking but it must be really good stuff.

Yes, the Middle East is growing in volatility. None of that has anything to do with Israel, but rather with small extremist factions that thought those countries were ready for democracies when they are anything but. And, btw, I don't smoke.

Except of course like everybody else, Arabs love their children, too bad Israel has a knack for murdering them.

I can think of many thing by which to describe parents who strap bombs on their children and send them into crowded marketplaces...but "loving" isn't among them. Here in the US, we have a different view of what love for a child is.

 

[HowardBThiname]

It is wrong to blame the Israelis anyway. I've met more than a few Israeli people who are generally good people, and have nothing to do with the Netanyahu regime itself. The rightful blame should be placed squarely on the shoulders of antisemitism and the Nazis, for forcing them out of Europe and murdering six million of them. But then again, we can go back even further - to the Crusades. The Christian/Jewish-Muslim animosity has existed since the Vatican-backed incursion into Muslim lands. So, really and truly, the blame goes to equal parts the Nazis and the Papacy. It isn't Israel's fault these people are in the situation they are in. Admittedly, I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but I'd side with him before I sided with the Communist/imperialist Russians/Chinese/US-backed UN.

Absolutely. If we go back to the inception, we'll find ONLY Jews, no Christians or Muslims in the Holy Land. Christians showed up a couple thousand years ago and Muslims a few hundred years after that. In essence, Muslims are the new kids on the block when it comes to inhabiting that region. Yet, they seem very greedy when it comes to allowing the Jewish state to occupy a tiny piece of the area.

All three religions now claim a stake there and it's easy to see why. The deal is -- they're just going to have to get along and quit trying to push some of the inhabitants into the sea.

 

[CJ 2.0]

It is wrong to blame the Israelis anyway. I've met more than a few Israeli people who are generally good people, and have nothing to do with the Netanyahu regime itself. The rightful blame should be placed squarely on the shoulders of antisemitism and the Nazis, for forcing them out of Europe and murdering six million of them. But then again, we can go back even further - to the Crusades. The Christian/Jewish-Muslim animosity has existed since the Vatican-backed incursion into Muslim lands. So, really and truly, the blame goes to equal parts the Nazis and the Papacy. It isn't Israel's fault these people are in the situation they are in. Admittedly, I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but I'd side with him before I sided with the Communist/imperialist Russians/Chinese/US-backed UN.

Really? You don't want to go back further to the aggressive violent expansion of Islam into lands that since modern antiquity had been an integral part of European civilization (the entire are around the Mediterranean sea was part of an integrated civilization for hundreds of years.

Funny how when Islam and Arabs are involved, any sort of narrative about anything will never go back far enough to actually focus on which civilization was the aggressive expansionist that conquered territories from the other.

The blame goes to the Palestinians and the Arabs who refused to make peace and continue to this day to seek the destruction of Israel above all other goals.

They are not children and are responsible for the consequences of their own policies.

 

[justabubba]

Over there have been many proposals, compromises for determining ownership and the final borders. There is the Golan Heights Law, that claims Israel has the right to govern that territory.

The UN rejects nearly everything Israel proposes, but then again - no one pays a lot of attention to the UN. The US won't even vote when the UN puts up those kinds of proposals. It's meaningless.

let me make sure the answer to my question is, 'no, there is no cite that establishes the israeli government's claim to the disputed territories'
correct me if i got that wrong

 

[L0neW0lf]

No, I don't mean that. Sisi was elected, whether or not you think the election to be valid.

Yea because the American backed military, violently starting a coup is the epitome of democracy, please.

Egypt, while it is better than some of the other Arab nations, has a problem. It has a large - a very large - group of citizens who are staunch Muslims. Mubarak ran the country well. Morsi nearly killed it. Now, Sisi is trying to put the pieces back together. Only those who want a religious government oppose Sisi, and if they do oppose him, they're probably not fit to run a government anyway.

You are of course very very wrong, the more to the left a party is in the Arab world, the less religious it is, the more anti-Israel it usually is, this is because Arab nationalism (independent of modern Islamic nationalism) is largely influenced by anti-colonialism and anti-imperialism. This is why the majority of people in the region even those not at all affected by Israel's criminality oppose recognition of Israel.

Actually, yes they have. And, there is every indication they will continue to moderate and join the civilized world. Hardliner Arabs who want to see Israel destroyed are dying off.

Of course your definition of moderate and civilized are your own, the American metric of a civilized Arab which is whether they support Israel or not is not very popular as you can imagine over here. The United States is the most disliked country after Israel over here for a reason.

You are correct though that change does happen and unfortunately for you and for Israel, clearly, change is not in Israel's favor, the more progress and more democracy and representation there is in the Arab the world the less likely it is that Israel has friends in the region.

Seeing as it gives us nobel winners in the sciences annually, no, I don't think I'm over estimating its importance. When we start seeing the same numbers, percentage-wise, from the Arab nations, perhaps we'll have something to talk about.

Again you overly estimate the importance of Nobel prizes to the rest of humanity, oil, trade and geopolitics. Israel in comparison to the entirety of the middle east becomes completely negligible.

You're confusing racism with ethnocentrism.

I am not confusing anything here.

I can think of many thing by which to describe parents who strap bombs on their children and send them into crowded marketplaces...but "loving" isn't among them. Here in the US, we have a different view of what love for a child is.

Yea, how many parents you know strapped bombs on their children and sent them into crowded marketplaces in Palestine?

America has a military cult, Americans clearly have no problem with sending their kids to war to kill and be killed "for their country". Which is the same in Israel, Israelis are willing to kill and be killed in the name of colonialism, Israeli Jewish parents, and many Jews internationally for that matter, leave the safety of their homes and countries and put there children in colonies on the front line of a military occupation. A better case can be made for those people hating their children tbh.

 

[Apocalypse]

You are of course very very wrong, the more to the left a party is in the Arab world, the less religious it is, the more anti-Israel it usually is, this is because Arab nationalism (independent of modern Islamic nationalism) is largely influenced by anti-colonialism and anti-imperialism.

I've yet to see an actual modern leftist political party in the Arab world, and I'm not sure what is considered 'left' within Arab societies in Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, etc. You'd think that those who aren't fully to the far-right would first of all oppose the concept of a dictatorship ruling over them.

This is why the majority of people in the region even those not at all affected by Israel's criminality oppose recognition of Israel.

Clearly that is wrong, the reason for the hatred is rooted in the belief that the land should be Islamic period, which is shared by an overwhelming majority. After that comes inherited antisemitism, and then the history of the conflict.

Of course your definition of moderate and civilized are your own, the American metric of a civilized Arab which is whether they support Israel or not is not very popular as you can imagine over here. The United States is the most disliked country after Israel over here for a reason.

I can't speak in his name but I would argue that a civilized human being anywhere is someone who doesn't advocate anything that is seen as extremely immoral when judged by the set of values that the human rights declaration is based on. (Which means when judged by Western values)

You are correct though that change does happen and unfortunately for you and for Israel, clearly, change is not in Israel's favor, the more progress and more democracy and representation there is in the Arab the world the less likely it is that Israel has friends in the region.

That's a very good explanation for why Israel gets closer and closer with its Arab neighbors as the years pass.

Again you overly estimate the importance of Nobel prizes to the rest of humanity, oil, trade and geopolitics. Israel in comparison to the entirety of the middle east becomes completely negligible.

Peace prize aside, the Nobel prize is granted to the most contributing individuals on the planet. If you're going to label the people who are responsible for advancing the whole of mankind "negligible" I wonder who isn't so in your eyes. Regardless Israel is clearly not negligible to anyone, and you yourself are probably unknowingly using products that wouldn't function the same way (or exist at all) was Israel not to be established in 1948.

Yea, how many parents you know strapped bombs on their children and sent them into crowded marketplaces in Palestine?

In Palestine? As in, the Palestinian territories? They haven't started bombing each other yet. As to Israel, way too many.

America has a military cult, Americans clearly have no problem with sending their kids to war to kill and be killed "for their country". Which is the same in Israel, Israelis are willing to kill and be killed in the name of colonialism, Israeli Jewish parents, and many Jews internationally for that matter, leave the safety of their homes and countries and put there children in colonies on the front line of a military occupation. A better case can be made for those people hating their children tbh.

Israelis don't want to die and Jews in general aren't promised anything specific for being killed while killing people, of any background, so they lack the motivation the other side has to even engage in such atrocities. You have the right to hold the opinion that sending your kid to the military or living in a settlement means a parent hates his kid, and to believe that such hatred is so immense that it is greater than when a Palestinian father or mother are pleased to have their kid explode himself to pieces on some Jewish school bus, but that's merely your opinion.

 

[L0neW0lf]

I've yet to see an actual modern leftist political party in the Arab world, and I'm not sure what is considered 'left' within Arab societies in Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, etc. You'd think that those who aren't fully to the far-right would first of all oppose the concept of a dictatorship ruling over them.

If you do not know of any leftest political parties in he Arab world, that only goes to show how little you know of the middle east and its politics which in turn makes the the next line particularly amusing:

Clearly that is wrong, the reason for the hatred is rooted in the belief that the land should be Islamic period, which is shared by an overwhelming majority. After that comes inherited antisemitism, and then the history of the conflict.

This does not account of course for the fact that no matter what their religion, and no matter what their political ideology, arabs ranging from socialists and Marxists to Islamists, have always been opposed to Zionism on the grounds of it being a colonial settler endeavour.

I can't speak in his name but I would argue that a civilized human being anywhere is someone who doesn't advocate anything that is seen as extremely immoral when judged by the set of values that the human rights declaration is based on. (Which means when judged by Western values)

The fact that Israel's racist existence is built on the denial of the application of these human rights to the original inhabitants of the country and their displacement is why Israel's claims to racist rights and its existence as a racist Jewish state will never be considered moral. And is again ultimately doomed.

That's a very good explanation for why Israel gets closer and closer with its Arab neighbors as the years pass.

Except of course it doesn't.

 

[Apocalypse]

If you do not know of any leftest political parties in he Arab world, that only goes to show how little you know of the middle east and its politics which in turn makes the the next line particularly amusing:

This does not account of course for the fact that no matter what their religion, and no matter what their political ideology, arabs ranging from socialists and Marxists to Islamists, have always been opposed to Zionism on the grounds of it being a colonial settler endeavour.

As I said that is absurdly wrong, the opposition is due to not wanting a non-Islamic state, definitely not Jewish, in the middle of what is seen as the Islamic Ummah. After that it is due to the inherited antisemitism within Islamic socieites and then it is because of the anger after years of historic conflicts since 1948 and the humiliations suffered by the IDF.

The fact that Israel's racist existence is built on the denial of the application of these human rights to the original inhabitants of the country and their displacement is why Israel's claims to racist rights and its existence as a racist Jewish state will never be considered moral. And is again ultimately doomed.

Israel, as its declaration of independence points, was built on the ideals of the declaration of human rights. Claiming that it is racist and opposes human rights while in reality it is its opposition that embraces racism and is following a Middle Ages mantra in regards to human rights, really won't change it and make it into something that it's not, just like repeating that it's "doomed" in an hysterical fashion isn't going to annihilate it.

Except of course it doesn't.

Unfamiliar with sarcasm, I assume.

 

[L0neW0lf]

As I said that is absurdly wrong, the opposition is due to not wanting a non-Islamic state, definitely not Jewish, in the middle of what is seen as the Islamic Ummah. After that it is due to the inherited antisemitism within Islamic socieites and then it is because of the anger after years of historic conflicts since 1948 and the humiliations suffered by the IDF.

That of course is easily dismissed by any serious scholarship of the conflict, the fact which you clearly cannot dispute is that every single political ideology in the Arab world, from secular nationalism, to Islamism has opposed Zionism on the virtue of the fact that it was a European born and European led colonial settler project no different to other colonial projects in the region, Christian Arabs were over represented in all the anti-Zionist political groups, and they remain so today.

The attempt to claim that Arab people who are against the continued displacement of nearly 5 million refugee on the virtue of the fact they are Arabs and not Jews, the destruction of more than 400 of their villages and the transformation of their homeland to a Jewish state against their wishes, to claim these people are not influenced by all that, no, they are primarily opposed to this criminality because they're antisemitic and cannot handle Jewish greatness is simply regurgitating tired old myths that fool only people who have never met an Arab or never read a book on the conflict. Every single Survey including the early British inquiries before the formation of Israel identified the obvious reasons why, anyone, let alone Arabs who experience this immoral injustice first hand would react like they do, unsurprisingly in the latest Arab Opinion Index:

A clear majority of 75% of the Arab people believe that the Palestinian cause is one which concerns
“all of the Arab peoples and not just the Palestinians alone”. Similarly, clear majorities across the
Arab countries were opposed to any peace agreements already signed between Arab parties and
Israel (including the Wadi Araba Treaty between Israel and Jordan; the Egyptian-Israeli Camp
David Accords; and the Oslo Accords signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization).
Additionally, 85% of Arab citizens opposed their own country’s recognition of Israel.

Arab citizens explained their opposition to recognition of Israel by their home countries for a
number of different reasons, mainly focused on Israel’s racist, expansionist and colonialist policies.

The most cited reason at 24% is the fact that

Israel is a colonialist, expansionist state

Israel's racism, terrorism and disposition of Palestinians feature on the list, the percentage of people who cited religious reasons is 3.3%.

Israel, as its declaration of independence points, was built on the ideals of the declaration of human rights.

Yes like displacing native communities and destroying their homes and declaring that their private property is the the "property of the Jewish people" internationally.

Claiming that it is racist and opposes human rights while in reality it is its opposition that embraces racism

In that it does not exclude Israeli Jews from being held accountable for their disregard to human rights of non jews?

just like repeating that it's "doomed" in an hysterical fashion isn't going to annihilate it.

Saying that Israel is doomed does not of course annihilate Israel, it is only a statement of fact.

Unfamiliar with sarcasm, I assume.

Oh I am quite familiar, it is difficult however to tell when your claims in the post are serious and when they're supposed to be a joke. It is quite likely that you, like Howard who I was responding to, also believe that "Israel gets closer and closer with its Arab neighbors as the years pass " hence my confusion.

 

[Apocalypse]

That of course is easily dismissed by any serious scholarship of the conflict, the fact which you clearly cannot dispute is that every single political ideology in the Arab world, from secular nationalism, to Islamism has opposed Zionism on the virtue of the fact that it was a European born and European led colonial settler project no different to other colonial projects in the region, Christian Arabs were over represented in all the anti-Zionist political groups, and they remain so today.

The attempt to claim that Arab people who are against the continued displacement of nearly 5 million refugee on the virtue of the fact they are Arabs and not Jews, the destruction of more than 400 of their villages and the transformation of their homeland to a Jewish state against their wishes, to claim these people are not influenced by all that, no, they are primarily opposed to this criminality because they're antisemitic and cannot handle Jewish greatness is simply regurgitating tired old myths that fool only people who have never met an Arab or never read a book on the conflict. Every single Survey including the early British inquiries before the formation of Israel identified the obvious reasons why, anyone, let alone Arabs who experience this immoral injustice first hand would react like they do, unsurprisingly in the latest Arab Opinion Index:

The most cited reason at 24% is the fact that

Israel's racism, terrorism and disposition of Palestinians feature on the list, the percentage of people who cited religious reasons is 3.3%.

We're not talking about the reason they are opposed to any specifc Israeli action, current or historical, we're talking about the reason they oppose Israel's very existence. That is because of three main reasons; not wanting a non-Muslim nation in the middle of the Islamic community or Ummah, antisemitism and the history of the conflict.
Most importantly it cannot be denied that the majority of the Middle East citizens are holding antisemitic opinions that would obviously lead to an opposition to Israel and its existence.
The ADL GLOBAL 100: An Index of Anti-Semitism

Yes like displacing native communities and destroying their homes and declaring that their private property is the the "property of the Jewish people" internationally.

In that it does not exclude Israeli Jews from being held accountable for their disregard to human rights of non jews?

Israel holds Jews/Arabs/whatever to be equal in front of the law and it holds anyone accountable for a disregard of human rights, and Israel's democratic, liberal character has a billion examples to be based on as you yourself probably recognize yet fail to mention as it would destroy the entire fallacy you've built here.

Saying that Israel is doomed does not of course annihilate Israel, it is only a statement of fact.

Yeah just as people once thought that the world is flat. Unfortunately just as there were people who thought Israel's coming destruction to be a "fact" 60 years ago there are those who believe so now and are motivated by this wicked wish instead of recognizing that Israel is not going anywhere and thus abandon that backwards and hateful agenda and make progress towards better days.

Oh I am quite familiar, it is difficult however to tell when your claims in the post are serious and when they're supposed to be a joke. It is quite likely that you, like Howard who I was responding to, also believe that "Israel gets closer and closer with its Arab neighbors as the years pass " hence my confusion.

That is a fact, not a joke. Arab nations are getting closer to Israel as years are passing by. You still don't seem to have understood the sarcasm in that comment that pointed in a cynical manner that what you're saying cannot be possible because the fact on the ground is that Arab nations are getting closer and closer to Israel with the years.

 

[HowardBThiname]

let me make sure the answer to my question is, 'no, there is no cite that establishes the israeli government's claim to the disputed territories'
correct me if i got that wrong

You do realize that you've asked two different questions?

Based on that, I think it's fair to say that you really don't understand the concepts here.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[HowardBThiname]

Yea because the American backed military, violently starting a coup is the epitome of democracy, please.

You're missing something important here. The US (Obama Administration) supported Arab Spring in Egypt. That was a mistake, but Obama declared that the Muslim Brotherhood should have "a seat at the decision-making table." You saw what a disaster that was. Egypt was spiraling out of control and the military (against the US position) brought the country back from the edge of insanity, where Morsi was heading. This was done against US wishes and it harmed relations with the US.

Of course your definition of moderate and civilized are your own, the American metric of a civilized Arab which is whether they support Israel or not is not very popular as you can imagine over here. The United States is the most disliked country after Israel over here for a reason.

You are correct though that change does happen and unfortunately for you and for Israel, clearly, change is not in Israel's favor, the more progress and more democracy and representation there is in the Arab the world the less likely it is that Israel has friends in the region.

You're talking like a hardliner here and the days of hardliners are numbered. I don't have a special definition of "civilized." That term is recognized throughout the world and acting like backwards extremists who can't tolerate the Jewish nation is NOT civilized.

Israel, on the other hand, with its contribution to the sciences and society -- with it representational government -- is civilized. The only problems Israel faces are from extremist Arabs who are locked in religious fundamentalism.

Again you overly estimate the importance of Nobel prizes to the rest of humanity, oil, trade and geopolitics. Israel in comparison to the entirety of the middle east becomes completely negligible.

Oil is important, indeed, but it won't be for much longer. The US (and Western scientists everywhere) are tired of dealing with backwards Middle Eastern oil barons and they're working round-the-clock to develop renewable methods of energy. The only reason the Middle East has two dimes to rub together is because the West bought your oil.

That's about to end, and with it will end any influence the Middle Eastern nations thought they had.

That should be clear to you by just watching what's happened with Saudi's oil glut this past year. The Saudi intent was to run the US oil industry out of business, but what did the US do? LOL, We massively increased oil production and with that, we're reducing dependency on OPEC.

The gravy train is getting ready to stop. You guys better get off your rear-ends and figure out a new way to make money because the US won't be held hostage to your childish demands.

[qutoe]
America has a military cult, Americans clearly have no problem with sending their kids to war to kill and be killed "for their country". Which is the same in Israel, Israelis are willing to kill and be killed in the name of colonialism, Israeli Jewish parents, and many Jews internationally for that matter, leave the safety of their homes and countries and put there children in colonies on the front line of a military occupation. A better case can be made for those people hating their children tbh.[/QUOTE]

Americans recognize that they live in the best nation in the world, but, no, they do not send their children off to die, like the religious extremists in the Middle East do. There is no conscription here. Our military is strictly voluntary. And not only do we not want to see them die, we've implemented ways of fighting other countries and terrorists from a distance so our American boys are not in the direct line of fire, via drones, bombs, etc. No American parent would strap a bomb on their child and send them to blow themselves up. Sorry - that one is on you.

Bottom line is -- Middle Eastern Arabs are going to have to accept Israel, and, despite what you say, many are doing just that. There will be peace, whether you want it or not. Things are changing.

Israel is here to stay. And, the world is better for it.

 

[HowardBThiname]

The attempt to claim that Arab people who are against the continued displacement of nearly 5 million refugee on the virtue of the fact they are Arabs and not Jews, the destruction of more than 400 of their villages and the transformation of their homeland to a Jewish state against their wishes, to claim these people are not influenced by all that, no, they are primarily opposed to this criminality because they're antisemitic and cannot handle Jewish greatness is simply regurgitating tired old myths that fool only people who have never met an Arab or never read a book on the conflict.

Old news. Get over it and move on.

The creation of Israel was a result on what happened in WWII, when nearly 50 million people, worldwide, lost their lives. A massive worldwide upheaval. So, there were a few Arabs that lost their homes....too bad. That pales in comparison to all the lives that were lost.

The world has moved on from those horrific days but a few stalwart Arabs don't seem to be able to join the rest of the world.

Sorry, but it's over for those people who still harbor hate in their hearts.

Israel is here to stay. The West will defend her to their last breath because Israel offers hope, human rights and progress. Those who oppose Israel only offer war, extremism and cult religion.

All thinking people will choose the former and reject the latter.

 

[RetiredUSN]

That of course is easily dismissed by any serious scholarship of the conflict, the fact which you clearly cannot dispute is that every single political ideology in the Arab world, from secular nationalism, to Islamism has opposed Zionism on the virtue of the fact that it was a European born and European led colonial settler project no different to other colonial projects in the region, Christian Arabs were over represented in all the anti-Zionist political groups, and they remain so today.

The attempt to claim that Arab people who are against the continued displacement of nearly 5 million refugee on the virtue of the fact they are Arabs and not Jews, the destruction of more than 400 of their villages and the transformation of their homeland to a Jewish state against their wishes, to claim these people are not influenced by all that, no, they are primarily opposed to this criminality because they're antisemitic and cannot handle Jewish greatness is simply regurgitating tired old myths that fool only people who have never met an Arab or never read a book on the conflict. Every single Survey including the early British inquiries before the formation of Israel identified the obvious reasons why, anyone, let alone Arabs who experience this immoral injustice first hand would react like they do, unsurprisingly in the latest Arab Opinion Index:



The most cited reason at 24% is the fact that



Israel's racism, terrorism and disposition of Palestinians feature on the list, the percentage of people who cited religious reasons is 3.3%.



Yes like displacing native communities and destroying their homes and declaring that their private property is the the "property of the Jewish people" internationally.



In that it does not exclude Israeli Jews from being held accountable for their disregard to human rights of non jews?



Saying that Israel is doomed does not of course annihilate Israel, it is only a statement of fact.



Oh I am quite familiar, it is difficult however to tell when your claims in the post are serious and when they're supposed to be a joke. It is quite likely that you, like Howard who I was responding to, also believe that "Israel gets closer and closer with its Arab neighbors as the years pass " hence my confusion.

There never was a Palestine. The Arabs created the myth.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Really? You don't want to go back further to the aggressive violent expansion of Islam into lands that since modern antiquity had been an integral part of European civilization (the entire are around the Mediterranean sea was part of an integrated civilization for hundreds of years.

Funny how when Islam and Arabs are involved, any sort of narrative about anything will never go back far enough to actually focus on which civilization was the aggressive expansionist that conquered territories from the other.

The blame goes to the Palestinians and the Arabs who refused to make peace and continue to this day to seek the destruction of Israel above all other goals.

They are not children and are responsible for the consequences of their own policies.

So, what you are saying, is that the Nazis and the Papacy had 0% participation in the ailments that Israel faces?
You would rather blame an entire demographic of people based on their ethnicity...
Yep, you're totally the voice of reason here. -facepalm-