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Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine[W:42]

Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
It would also help if you actually read what I posted because they did "recognize Israel's right to exist".... So I guess I'll just repost what I already posted...

"On September 9, 1993, Chairman Arafat sent a letter to Prime Minister Rabin, in which he stated unequivocally that the PLO: Recognizes the right of Israel to exist in peace and security"
 Israel-Palestinian Negotiations

""After a two-day meeting with five prominent American Jews here, a P.L.O. delegation led by Mr. Arafat said in a joint statement that the Palestinian parliament in exile last month had ''accepted the existence of Israel as a state in the region'' ARAFAT SAYS P.L.O. ACCEPTED ISRAEL - NYTimes.com

""Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967." The PA president's comments came in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague."
'We recognize Israel, they should recognize Palestine' - Diplomacy & Politics - Jerusalem Post
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I think the point is to recognize Israel as a Jewish State. Which the PLO if I recall correctly has refused to do.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Sure.
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Thanks for proving my point. Both you and Abbas consider the existence of Israel to be an occupation.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Bull****. And we can look at history for that.... Or even current policies: I mean what about the Law of Return for the Israelis and compare that to the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees? Or how about housing? The open discrimintaory nature of Israel is clear as day right now for Palestinians living in Israel...
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Thank you for proving that you don't know what discrimination is. No, saying that Jews have a right of return to Israel due to the historical context and not accepting in millions of Palestinians in is not discriminatory. That's hilarious and a very desperate attempt.

Well saying Arab Israelis and Palestinian Israelis already face open discrimination......
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Arab Israelis are equal citizens in Israel because Israel is a fully functional democracy. That is beside the point though that your crazy argument that if the Palestinians were to recognize Israel as Jewish it would be suddenly discriminating against its Arab citizens doesn't abide by human logic and should be ridiculed as such. Since I already notified that I will not be granting such ridiculous nonsensical arguments any legitimacy this will be my last response on that part.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

HowardBThiname said:
Superficially, that sounds promising but Hamas, who ran Gaza until 2014 and still holds dominance does not recognize Israel's right to exist - and, in fact - its Charter reflects that sentiment.
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I believe Hamas in Gaza still controls most daily political operations (to an extent). I believe the Unity government staffed by Fatah officials and technocrats dissolved in mid 2015. Also its important to note in regards to the Charter Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant" Mazin Qumsiyeh on the History and Practice Of Nonviolent Palestinian Resistance | WRMEA
Also its important to note that Hamas has shown signs to pursue a truce with Israel based on the 1967 borders, and also joined the unity government that acknowledged Israel and their right to exist.

Abbas, while more moderate, is mainly influential in the West Bank. Israel doesn't have a lot of trouble with the West Bank.
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Actually Israel has a lot of trouble with the West Bank. Daily protests, settlement expansion, the possible "3rd Intifada" (happening now) is mainly in the West Bank, etc.

Most of the trouble comes from Gaza.
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Comes from both. Most militant activity comes from Gaza, true.

The Unity Government is anything but "united."
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Collapsed in summer of 2015 Palestinian Unity Government Collapses | Al Jazeera America

The only way to lasting peace is for Palestinians (whether they are a state or not) to accept the borders that now exist
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Can tell you that much, this will never happen for these reasons here:
11rvdhs.jpg


and quit lobbing rockets into Israel.
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Rockets are a problem. But you have viewed this and laid out the conflict in regards to a completely one sided approach...

I applaud what Abbas has done in the West Bank, but he has to remember, if he accepts statehood, it will be limited to the current borders. There can be no removal of the buffer zones.
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It will not be limited to current borders, especially when illegal Israeli settlements continue to expand.

I'm all for Palestinian statehood. That will force them to be held to the same standards Israel is held to.
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As are many people including myself. The quesiton is how to reach that conclusion....
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

cpwill said:
YOU were the one who claimed that the Palestinians recognized Israel. It's rather germane whether or not the people you are citing are the actual duly elected government of Palestine. ;)
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Again, the recognized political actor of the Palestinian people and their "level of democracy" has nothing to do with if that actor recognized the state of Israel or not and their right to exist.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
So the current administration of the PA does recognize Israels right to exist thus debunking your claim that they do not in post #14....[QUOTE[but practically he does no such thing when he works to deligitimize Israel and promotes the Palestinian 'right of return'. One state recognizes one right to exist while the other (Israel) does not...
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There is no Palestinian state for Israel to recognize, as if there was it would already be existing on its own borders and the two states solution wouldn't be necessary. Try and see if you manage to work it out. Israel will recognize a Palestinian state that results directly from negotiations between the two parties and a conclusive agreement as was stated an endless amount of times before.

Its called international law: "11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;" A/RES/194 (III) of 11 December 1948 3.)In a more realpolitick evaluations there will most likely be a negotiated deal with certain preconditions on who can return and who cannot. Israel was created essentially through international platforms, but then you go and criticize Palestinians use of "international platforms"...
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Israel had no agreement to negotiate with anyone, the Palestinians do. A one-sided solution is no solution at all.

What is the "modern state of Israel"? All the land they have now? The land they are continually illegally grabbing/occupying (https://news.vice.com/article/israe...the-west-bank-as-netanyahu-meets-with-obama)? Afterall Jewish Israelis do not agree at all on what the Jewish character of Israel even means...
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I believe I already referred you to the Israeli declaration of independence.

Again they do not claim the whole state of Israel which you seem to be implying here. Move past that talking point. But to answer your loaded question its for many reasons and its not because of the statement you added in the end (which made your question loaded):1.)The reasons already laid out in the article in my post ealier2.)Recognizing Israel as Jewish state would mean renouncing the internationally recognized right of Palestinian refugees to return. 3.)Palestinians fear that recognizing the Jewish nature of Israel means endorsing and making permanent the state's discrimination against its Palestinian citizens.4.)"To recognise Israel as a Jewish state would only give license to further efforts of marginalising or removing this population with the goal of maintaining Jewish majoritarianism.
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3 and 4 are not relying on human logic or human intelligence and as such are ignored yet again. 2 shouldn't be an issue as what does Israel's Jewish character have to do with the Palestinian demand to have the sons grandsons etc. of those who lived in Israeli territory return to it? Nothing at all. Which again like 3 and 4 makes this an insult to human intelligence.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Bull****. And we can look at history for that.... Or even current policies: I mean what about the Law of Return for the Israelis and compare that to the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees? Or how about housing? The open discrimintaory nature of Israel is clear as day right now for Palestinians living in Israel...

"Moreover, Palestinians are concerned that recognizing Israel as a Jewish state might be seen as endorsing discrimination against the Palestinian minority in Israel, which is approximately 20 percent of the population. They point out that Jewish Israelis do not agree at all on what the Jewish character of Israel means. Important sections of Israeli law, life, and society are structured in a discriminatory manner based on "nationality" (i.e., "Jewish," "Arab," and scores of other classifications made by the state) as opposed to citizenship. This discrimination applies to housing, education, military service and its many benefits, access to publicly owned lands and other important aspects of social and economic life. Palestinians are understandably uncomfortable with anything that might smack of acquiescence to these structures of discrimination that permeate Israeli society in favor of those classified by the state as "Jewish." Should the Palestinians Recognize Israel as a Jewish State? | Foreign Policy..
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Right of return is a non starter for Israel.
No way Israel will agree to the present numbers, descendants of refugees returning and changing Israel's demographics. To argue what will never happen is well...............
Point- The partition approved by the UN recognized 2 States, 1 Arab, 1 Jewish.
Arabs were driven out or as some note, many left due to urging of the Arabs powers prior to Israel declaring Independence.
The Jews in Arab countries, stripped of wealth, lands and forced to leave.

TheDemSocialist said:
I believe Hamas in Gaza still controls most daily political operations (to an extent). I believe the Unity government staffed by Fatah officials and technocrats dissolved in mid 2015. Also its important to note in regards to the Charter Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant" Mazin Qumsiyeh on the History and Practice Of Nonviolent Palestinian Resistance | WRMEA
Also its important to note that Hamas has shown signs to pursue a truce with Israel based on the 1967 borders, and also joined the unity government that acknowledged Israel and their right to exist.
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Saying it is not relevant and a piece of history, and changing the charter are not the same.
Hamas runs Gaza, not to an extent, but total control. Yes there are small numbers of other Islamist groups, but have no doubt, Hamas knows exactly who they are.

Actually Israel has a lot of trouble with the West Bank. Daily protests, settlement expansion, the possible "3rd Intifada" (happening now) is mainly in the West Bank, etc.
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Yes they do, and it will only increase as Palestinians see no hope in the leadership or of peace deal.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

JANFU said:
I think the point is to recognize Israel as a Jewish State. Which the PLO if I recall correctly has refused to do.
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Post 2007 thats the "point", and the reasoning for refusal has been posted.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Post 2007 thats the "point", and the reasoning for refusal has been posted.
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Yes, read that after I posted. Thank you though.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Again, the recognized political actor of the Palestinian people and their "level of democracy" has nothing to do with if that actor recognized the state of Israel or not and their right to exist.
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So.... Were they elected by the Palestinian people, meaning they can speak on behalf of Palestinians.... ? Or did someone else win that voting-thingy?
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

Apocalypse said:
Thanks for proving my point. Both you and Abbas consider the existence of Israel to be an occupation.
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On some of the claimed Palestinian land? Absolutely..... Do you not? Is all land Israel expands upon now theirs? Could Israel essentially claim all of Historic Palestine/Israel and call it theirs and would you accept that?

Apocalypse said:
Thank you for proving that you don't know what discrimination is.
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:doh
-Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952)—privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
-State funding to Arab schools in Israel falls far behind that provided to Jewish schools. According to official state data published in 2004, the state provides three times as much funding to Jewish students as to Arab pupils. This underfunding is reflected in many areas, including relatively large class sizes and poor infrastructure and facilities.
-The criminal justice system is regularly used as a means of delegitimizing political acts and expression by Palestinian citizens of Israel, including their elected political leadership. Several Arab MKs have been indicted or had parliamentary privileges revoked for legitimate political activities and speech that falls within the scope of their work as elected representatives.
http://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfiles/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

-There are more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
-More than seventy Palestinian villages and communities in Israel, some of which pre-date the establishment of the state, are unrecognized by the government, receive no services, and are not even listed on official maps. Many other towns with a majority Palestinian population lack basic services and receive significantly less government funding than do majority-Jewish towns.
-According to the 2009 US State Department International Religious Freedom Report, “Many of the national and municipal policies in Jerusalem were designed to limit or diminish the non-Jewish population of Jerusalem.”
Discrimination Against Palestinian Citizens of Israel | IMEU

-Database of discriminatory laws: Discriminatory Laws in Israel - Adalah

-2015 Knesset Discriminatory Bills that Were Introduced: ACRI Review of Knesset Winter Session | Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI)
No, saying that Jews have a right of return to Israel due to the historical context and not accepting in millions of Palestinians in is not discriminatory. That's hilarious and a very desperate attempt.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

Apocalypse said:
-
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The silencing of and incitement against the Arab population was manifested this year through two worrisome, relatively new and connected phenomena: the “policing” of discourse on social networks by Jewish citizens on the one hand and sanctions (including terminations) against Arab workers who “dared” to express identification with Palestinian victims in Gaza or criticize the army and the state, on the other. The chapter covering freedom of expression discusses the topic of intolerance of criticism and opinions or statements which deviate from the majority during times of crisis and war. However, it is important to note here that the silencing was largely directed towards the Arab minority. As well as undermining freedom of speech, these phenomena demonstrates a dangerous attitude that seeks to delegitimize opinions and feelings held by the Arab population, and even to delegitimize the group’s very existence in the public sphere and Israeli society
-The bill to exempt young families’ first home purchases from value-added tax states that the degree of the benefit is contingent on having performed army or national service, which discriminates against Arabs, the ultraorthodox, persons with disabilities and other population groups
-The Israel Police’s treatment of demonstrators during Operation Protective Edge is another example of the state's discriminatory treatment of Arab citizens. During demonstrations against the fighting that were held throughout Israel, some 1,500 protesters were arrested, almost all of them Arabs.82 In one instance, the arrest documentation for eight Arab citizens, residents of Tel Sheva, included a
section on stone-throwing – an offence that is only applicable in the Occupied Territories and not in Israel. Indictments were filed against some 350 of those arrested, none of them Jewish – despite the fact that many Jewish demonstrators acted violently.
http://www.acri.org.il/en/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Situation-Report-2014.pdf


Arab Israelis are equal citizens in Israel because Israel is a fully functional democracy. That is beside the point though that your crazy argument that if the Palestinians were to recognize Israel as Jewish it would be suddenly discriminating against its Arab citizens doesn't abide by human logic and should be ridiculed as such. Since I already notified that I will not be granting such ridiculous nonsensical arguments any legitimacy this will be my last response on that part.
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Nope. See above. Im gonna guess you are just gonna scream, "nauh!" without diving into details of above examples and dismiss them off hand.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

JANFU said:
Right of return is a non starter for Israel.
No way Israel will agree to the present numbers, descendants of refugees returning and changing Israel's demographics. To argue what will never happen is well...............
Point- The partition approved by the UN recognized 2 States, 1 Arab, 1 Jewish.
Arabs were driven out or as some note, many left due to urging of the Arabs powers prior to Israel declaring Independence.
The Jews in Arab countries, stripped of wealth, lands and forced to leave.
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See the population of Palestinian refugees who would actually exercise their right of return. Can be found here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/israe...cognise-state-palestine-3.html#post1065382173


Saying it is not relevant and a piece of history, and changing the charter are not the same.
Hamas runs Gaza, not to an extent, but total control. Yes there are small numbers of other Islamist groups, but have no doubt, Hamas knows exactly who they are.
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Huh?

Yes they do, and it will only increase as Palestinians see no hope in the leadership or of peace deal.
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I would agree. But Israel's policies are not helping....
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
On some of the claimed Palestinian land? Absolutely..... Do you not? Is all land Israel expands upon now theirs? Could Israel essentially claim all of Historic Palestine/Israel and call it theirs and would you accept that?
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How dishonest we were just talking about a 67 years old "occupation" meaning since the very day Israel was created.

-Palestinian citizens of Israel are afforded differential and unequal treatment under Israeli law in the field of citizenship rights. The most important immigration and nationality laws—including the Law of Return (1950) and the Citizenship Law (1952)—privilege Jews and Jewish immigration.
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And I just stated why it's absurd to refer to the citizenship law and the law of return (which are both references to the same issue) as "discriminatory laws". Israel recognizes the right of return of Jewish people to its land due to the historical context, suggesting that because it doesn't do the same for Palestinians it means it's discriminating against its Arab population is absurd and laughable and referring to Adalah only makes your argument weaker.

-State funding to Arab schools in Israel falls far behind that provided to Jewish schools. According to official state data published in 2004, the state provides three times as much funding to Jewish students as to Arab pupils. This underfunding is reflected in many areas, including relatively large class sizes and poor infrastructure and facilities.
-The criminal justice system is regularly used as a means of delegitimizing political acts and expression by Palestinian citizens of Israel, including their elected political leadership. Several Arab MKs have been indicted or had parliamentary privileges revoked for legitimate political activities and speech that falls within the scope of their work as elected representatives.
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More of the same nonsense from Adalah. That discrimination exists is known, and it exists everywhere in the world, but to suggest that there is a deliberate underfunding of certain villages or anything like that is to simply not understand the reality on the ground and the factors that lead to these villages situation. Israel is investing tons of efforts in closing the gap between Jews and non-Jewish minorities in society as every true democracy does with its minorities which Israel clearly is. By the way the suggesting that the Arab MKs referred to in the passage have acted "legitimately" is hilarious. Most Arab MKs have adopted the Palestinian agenda and some more extreme than others have been engaging in support for terrorism multiple times and yet remain MKs in the Israeli Knesset because Israel is a fully functional democracy. You clearly are unaware of the political situation within Israel and rely solely on hate-sites that provide lies to gather your info from.

There are more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel.
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Yeah and scanning through the database from Adalah you've provided points out just how ridiculous the claim is and how not a single one of them is actually discriminatory.
For one example basing benefits on IDF service is discriminatory according to you, which says everything that is needed to be said on how seriously I should take your arguments here. :shrug:
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Nope. See above. Im gonna guess you are just gonna scream, "nauh!" without diving into details of above examples and dismiss them off hand.
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I don't need to, the arguments you provide to base your inherently false claim that Israel as a state does not grant its Arab citizens equal rights when it is undeniable that they are indeed fully equal citizens of the state say it all. All of these arguments without any exclusion are based on illogical and nonsensical reasonings; from suggesting that the Jewish right of return to Israel is a discrimination against Arab Israelis to another suggestion that Israel promoting "zionist" institutions is a discrimination (one of the laws in that database you were referring to), they're all relying on zero human logic and zero common sense as is the general point you were failing at making here.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

Moderator's Warning:
Whoa. The topic of the thread: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

Has been abandoned. Greece hasn't been mentioned in many posts. While threads do drift a bit with supporting information, we are well past that point.

Please return to the topic and if y'all want to discuss the recognition of either party by the other (Israel or Palestine), please open a a new thread.

In the meantime, those sticking with this thread, need to stop the baiting.

Thank you.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

Apocalypse said:
There is no Palestinian state for Israel to recognize, as if there was it would already be existing on its own borders and the two states solution wouldn't be necessary. Try and see if you manage to work it out. Israel will recognize a Palestinian state that results directly from negotiations between the two parties and a conclusive agreement as was stated an endless amount of times before.



Israel had no agreement to negotiate with anyone, the Palestinians do. A one-sided solution is no solution at all.
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Wow.... Now your new position is "well there is no state to negotiate with"? :doh

I believe I already referred you to the Israeli declaration of independence.
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And your point?


3 and 4 are not relying on human logic or human intelligence and as such are ignored yet again. 2 shouldn't be an issue as what does Israel's Jewish character have to do with the Palestinian demand to have the sons grandsons etc. of those who lived in Israeli territory return to it? Nothing at all. Which again like 3 and 4 makes this an insult to human intelligence.
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Except you know, 3 and 4 are based on discriminatory laws and policies already on the books.... Which have been presented..
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

TheDemSocialist said:
Wow.... Now your new position is "well there is no state to negotiate with"? :doh


And your point?



Except you know, 3 and 4 are based on discriminatory laws and policies already on the books.... Which have been presented..
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Israel has been negotiating with the PLO, not with a state, so your statement is per usual a nonsensical one, and the reference to the declaration of independence is because you insist on claiming that Israel doesn't recognize itself as a Jewish state in your excuse for why the Palestinians shouldn't in your opinion recognize Israel as a Jewish state, the "presented discrimantory laws" that you have presented were exposed to be not discriminatory at all in my previous posts and I think I've done a fairly good job at showing how you're merely saying what you want to be true regardless of how true it is using Google to find someone else who's saying the same thing (100% of times an hate-site or a biased organization) and posting it here without any logical or common sense to support any of it.

In addition to the moderator's warning here to discuss the thread's topic this is also my last post on this issue that isn't going anywhere as you're merely repeating debunked arguments time after time as I'm sure you'll continue to do the next time as well so it's pointless for me to engage in debunking your nonsensical arguments when you'll use them again the next time you'll get an opportunity to do so.
 
Re: Greece moves to recognise the state of Palestine

The vote happened this morning. It passed unanimously! :applaud

IMEMC : The Greek Parliament unanimously voted, Tuesday, officially recognizing the state of Palestine. President Mahmoud Abbas, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, and various officials, attended the vote.

The Palestinian Authority thanked Greece for the positive vote, and described it as a move in the right direction towards stronger relations, and cooperation, between the two countries.

It added that the latest vote should encourage other countries around the world to recognize Palestine, and the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people, including the right to independence and self-determination.

Speaking to Greek parliamentarians after the vote, President Abbas described the development as historic, and thanked the country for this positive diplomatic move.

Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely denounced the vote, and described it as a move that has “no practical significance”.
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Greek Parliament Passes Unanimous Vote Recognizing Palestine - nsnbc international | nsnbc international
 
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