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No Palestinian State in the foreseeable future

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L0neW0lf

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Hopefully no two state solution is ever realized, a two state solution does not address the two major crimes that created the current conflict, one was the disposition of the overwhelming majority of the native population and two, the denial of these people's right to democratically rule themselves because colonial nations decided that Jews in Europe and their needs were more important than the opinion of the natives:

Lord Balfour who made the famous declaration once saying:

In Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country... Zionism be it right or wrong is more important than the wishes of 700,000 Arabs,

The noted Jewish author (and Zionist) Arthur Koestler described the promise quite accurately as:

one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third
The only just solution is one where a right of return is realized for all native people displaced by the conflict, repatriation and compensation. The creation of a secular democratic state where everyone is equal under the law that respects the different cultural and religious background of its citzens.

The issue of self determination has been decided a century ago. And despite what all these Zionist leaders believed, from Balfour to Herzl, the native population of Palestine were entitled to it.

This is the only just solution to the conflict and all others that attempt to maintain undue Jewish supremacy will only perpetuate it.
 
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This would be fair if not for the special circumstances surrounding Jewish nationalism and the establishment of Israel.


Actually that would be unfair and is in fact a crime under international law, regardless of the context, being persecuted does not give one licence to prosecute other people.

it's entirely fair that, in an area where Jews had been settling for generations already

Through conquer and through arms, This is an important distinction. They were not settling there peacefully or with consent of the majority of the indigenous population, they were settling there in cooperation with the natives enemies. Moreover they have not been settling there for "generations" Most Jews in Israel in the 1940s weren't actually born there. in the 1920s the number of Jews to Arabs was approximately one to nine.

Jewish-majority areas be given to a Jewish state and Arab-majority areas be given an Arab state.

I agree, with the obvious distinction that this only applies to people who are natives of the area and not settlers who are only there through murder and guns. The number of indigenous Palestinian Jews who lived in Palestine is in fact very small and we know that they like the overwhelming majority of Jews worldwide initially opposed the Zionist movement. But of course if they wanted autonomy then they like British/French/German/Polish/Iraqi/Morocan/American Jews, are entitled to the same rights under the same principle so long as it is expressed in such a way where it does not significantly affect the rights of others.


But this again highlights the inherent injustice of Zionism in Palestine, the whole plan of Jewish settlers was to "colonize" Palestine, prevent Palestinian self determination until they had enough Jews in Palestine to constitute a majority then ask for self determination and democracy, of course this was shortsighted, not enough Jews ended up settling Palestine and the number of Arabs proved highly inconvenient, so they openly started talking about population transfer. This was not a hidden plan. Palestinians opposed Zionism as soon as it started, the first ever poll by Americans of Arab public opinion before Congress adopted the racist Balfour declaration had this to say:

In his address of July 4, 1918, President Wilson laid down the following principle as one of the four great "ends for which the associated peoples of the world were fighting": "The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned, and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery." If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine-nearly nine-tenths of the whole-are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine was more agreed than upon this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the peoples' rights, though it kept within the forms of law.


Moreover leading up to 1948, the Arabs still made up the overwhelming majority of the population (70%) and they owned the overwhelming majority of territory, Jews were concentrated in Major settlements from which they left to conquer all surrounding districts in which Jews made up a minority.

There was not a single district where Jews owned more land than arabs:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ine_Land_ownership_by_sub-district_(1945).jpg

See this map that shows demographic distribution:
Palestine's Population Distribution Per District as of 1946 - Palestine Remembered

As I said in most areas Arabs owned the majority of the territory and were the majority population except in major settlements that had a highly concentrated number of Jewish settlers. Like Tel Aviv for example. And in the 1940s even after the war started the Jewish population were in fact offered "complete autonomy" by Arabs in the areas "they predominate". Zionists back then just as Israelis today believed that the entire territory of Historic Palestine is Jewish and belongs to the Jews regardless of whether or not there are any Jews living there.
 
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You do understand that even the UN (as useless as they are these days) but also many nations in Europe, and elsewhere in the region itself does not agree with this thinking. We have nations today that already treat the Palestinians as their own State despite what Israel or the US thinks the border is. This will only get worse the more Israel claims all these lands no matter who is living on them, and trying to suggest Israel take all of it over will keep them in the cross-hairs of everyone else in the region for generations to come.
 
Hopefully no two state solution is ever realized...
The recent spate of the knifing of Israeli civilians vividly demonstrates to the Israeli body politic why a bi-national-one-state solution is neither practical ... nor prudent.
 
You do understand that even the UN (as useless as they are these days) but also many nations in Europe, and elsewhere in the region itself does not agree with this thinking. We have nations today that already treat the Palestinians as their own State despite what Israel or the US thinks the border is. This will only get worse the more Israel claims all these lands no matter who is living on them, and trying to suggest Israel take all of it over will keep them in the cross-hairs of everyone else in the region for generations to come.

He's not advocating for Israel to take the entire land, he's advocating for the destruction and dismantling of Israel and the forming of a single state that would have an Arab-Muslim majority.
I'd say "pigs would fly before that happens" but we both know that with the advancement of science that's a possibility and I do not want to suggest that this would ever be likely.
 
The only just solution is one where a right of return is realized for all native people displaced by the conflict, repatriation and compensation. The creation of a secular democratic state where everyone is equal under the law that respects the different cultural and religious background of its citzens.

Israel has existed for more than 67 years now, it's a prospering democratic nation that based itself as a world leader on many fields, it always ranks at the top 10 in world surveys regarding the level of happiness of the people, the people's health, etc. and yet for some reason you expect it to simply dismantle itself and destroy itself because you believe that its creation over 67 years ago was unjust and that the Jewish people have no right for a state of their own in their eternal homeland. Right, not going to happen.
 
You do understand that even the UN

That's not actually true, the world once passed a resolution about Zionism that would have it infarcted under this forum's rules ;D

Moreover even though most nations around the world support a two state settlement, most nations around the world support the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Usually European nations abstain from these votes and the only countries that vote against them are mainly the US and Israel vs essentially the rest of the world essentially.

A two state solution with two Palestinian majority states does not make much sense, The two state solution is just as immoral and impractical today as it was in the 1940s.
 
That's not actually true, the world once passed a resolution about Zionism that would have it infarcted under this forum's rules ;D

Moreover even though most nations around the world support a two state settlement, most nations around the world support the right of return for Palestinian refugees. Usually European nations abstain from these votes and the only countries that vote against them are mainly the US and Israel vs essentially the rest of the world essentially.

A two state solution with two Palestinian majority states does not make much sense, The two state solution is just as immoral and impractical today as it was in the 1940s.

"Once passed" does not equal current sentiment, that is clear and indisputable. There is too much opposition to Israel controlling all they want to control, thus eliminating any two state solution seems unlikely. And even if it was otherwise and Israel pulled off a total control over all they want by kicking out whoever they want, it would ensure their complete lack of safety for generations to come.
 
Simpleχity;1065283874 said:
The recent spate of the knifing of Israeli civilians vividly demonstrates to the Israeli body politic why a bi-national-one-state solution is neither practical ... nor prudent.

Not really no, the violence is the direct result of the actions of the state. The violence that has never ended is more or less evidence of the impracticality of ignoring the inherent injustice of killing and displacing people and destroying their property, who would have thunk!
 
"Once passed" does not equal current sentiment, that is clear and indisputable. There is too much opposition to Israel controlling all they want to control, thus eliminating any two state solution seems unlikely. And even if it was otherwise and Israel pulled off a total control over all they want by kicking out whoever they want, it would ensure their complete lack of safety for generations to come.

I am not sure why you labor under the pretense that ending Jewish privilege in historic Palestine is equivalent to "Israel", by which you mean Israeli Jews, controlling everything?
 
I am not sure why you labor under the pretense that ending Jewish privilege in historic Palestine is equivalent to "Israel", by which you mean Israeli Jews, controlling everything?

How could it be otherwise? (On a functional level.)
 
"Once passed" does not equal current sentiment, that is clear and indisputable. There is too much opposition to Israel controlling all they want to control, thus eliminating any two state solution seems unlikely. And even if it was otherwise and Israel pulled off a total control over all they want by kicking out whoever they want, it would ensure their complete lack of safety for generations to come.

Just to point out, Israel (loco Jewish settlers notwithstanding) doesn't even want the West Bank.
 
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