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At least 5 dead, including American tourist, West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist [W:74]

Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
The guy could be the Prince of Darkness, but if people don't understand the hilarious, illogical nature of just snapping your finger and withdrawing from the West Bank, then nothing else is really going to make any difference.

Defensible Borders for a Lasting Peace
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I agree. Unfortunately, many Palestinians do not view the historic dispute as being about borders. Instead, they continue to seek Israel's elimination either explicitly or implicitly.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

donsutherland1 said:
I agree. Unfortunately, many Palestinians do not view the historic dispute as being about borders. Instead, they continue to seek Israel's elimination either explicitly or implicitly.
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Agreed. I watched The Gatekeepers yesterday and it provided a particularly sobering view of Arab motivations toward Israel. It gave the viewer no reason to walk away with a sense of optimism or purpose. I fully appreciated that having their own state was only ever their Plan B, a consolation prize if they thought that destroying Israel was off the menu.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
Agreed. I watched The Gatekeepers yesterday
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Great documentary.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Apocalypse said:
Great documentary.
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I was impressed at how unbiased it was. It grimly clarified the intransigence of the Palestinians while not mincing words about the tactical and moral mistakes Israel made over the years. After watching it, it's extraordinary to think the peace talks got as far as they did.

What I learned about the Shin Bet stopping the Jewish Underground from blowing up the Dome of the Rock, and the consequences of that had it been successful, was also amazing.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
I was impressed at how unbiased it was. It grimly clarified the intransigence of the Palestinians while not mincing words about the tactical and moral mistakes Israel made over the years. After watching it, it's extraordinary to think the peace talks got as far as they did.
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Yes, the film really provides a great chance for 'outsiders' who watch it to gain a real, deep understanding of the core reasons for the lack of peace and the continuing of the conflict. You're not the first one I meet that find it so informative.

What I learned about the Shin Bet's success in stopping the Jewish Underground from blowing up the Dome of the Rock was also amazing.
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It's a strange reality when the Shin Bet have no less problems coming from Jewish extremists than they do from Arab ones, but it's true.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

donsutherland1 said:
I agree. Unfortunately, many Palestinians do not view the historic dispute as being about borders. Instead, they continue to seek Israel's elimination either explicitly or implicitly.
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The "elimination of Israel" is clearly is clearly an issue of borders. The two are not contradictory. The conflict has always been about borders, I fail to see why it would stop today. 1948 is still in living memory.
 
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Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
their Plan B, a consolation prize if they thought that destroying Israel was off the menu.
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How shocking, you mean native people in Palestine audaciously thought they have a right to rule themselves, and have their fate decided by themselves, not by a minority of people the majority of whom were European nationals?

I have certainly never heard of anything like this /sarcasm.

The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or of political relationship upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery.
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President Wilson 1918
 
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Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
The "elimination of Israel" is clearly is clearly an issue of borders. The two are not contradictory. The conflict has always been about borders, I fail to see why it would stop today. 1948 is still in living memory.
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Wow...
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
The "elimination of Israel" is clearly is clearly an issue of borders. The two are not contradictory. The conflict has always been about borders, I fail to see why it would stop today. 1948 is still in living memory.
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Yes - as in the borders the Palestinians are willing to accept involve leaving no territories under Jewish control.

We know.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
something wrong?
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Not to me. It is always helpful when perceptions on our side of the fence about the unwillingness of the Palestinians to contemplate peace is confirmed. Makes it easier to fight off our natural inclination to compromise.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

CJ 2.0 said:
Yes - as in the borders the Palestinians are willing to accept involve leaving no territories under Jewish control.
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I certainly hope so, the time for any human being to accept racial or religious "control" of any territory is over.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
I certainly hope so, the time for any human being to accept racial or religious "control" of any territory is over.
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Yeah, god forbid those Jews could exercise self determination in their own land.

Again, thanks for the clarification. Always good to know how important it is to keep up the good fight and avoid being sucked into that false paradigm of trying to negotiate with the Palestinians.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

CJ 2.0 said:
Yeah, god forbid those Jews could exercise self determination in their own land.

Again, thanks for the clarification. Always good to know how important it is to keep up the good fight and avoid being sucked into that false paradigm of trying to negotiate with the Palestinians.
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And let's not pretend that this asinine belief is not the mainstream view in Palestinian society, when even the so-called 'moderate' Palestinian Authority treats the entire of Israel as an occupation, meaning that Israel must be destroyed:

Abbas says all of Israel is “occupation�‎ - PMW Bulletins

Israel isn't going anywhere, and as long as such views are going to dominate the anti-Israeli agenda so are the neogtiations.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

CJ 2.0 said:
Not to me. It is always helpful when perceptions on our side of the fence about the unwillingness of the Palestinians to contemplate peace is confirmed. Makes it easier to fight off our natural inclination to compromise.
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I for one am in favor of taking Palestinian collaborators who help Israel's military apparatus (unelected people who believe they have the authority to negotiate away Palestinian rights and have readily done so according to Israeli and leaked Palestinian sources), and prosecuting them for treason.

Palestinians should never accept Israeli/American definitions of "peace" or "terrorism" for that matter, accept that they are lesser human beings than Jews, which is what this whole two state unjust "peace" facade seeks to solidify. To accept that a Briton who cannot trace his family history outside of it has a right to literally go and live in my grandparents' private home and land while they are forced to live in exile because unlike the Britons, they were not born Jewish.

Thankfully talks of a two state "solution" are now increasingly becoming irrelevant, Israel itself ironically argues to their detriment in the long run that its not practical.
 
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Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
I for one am in favor of taking Palestinian collaborators who help Israel's military apparatus (unelected people who believe they have the authority to negotiate away Palestinian rights and have readily done so according to Israeli and leaked Palestinian sources), and prosecuting them for treason.

Palestinians should never accept Israeli/American definitions of "peace" or "terrorism" for that matter, accept that they are lesser human beings than Jews, which is what this whole two state unjust "peace" facade seeks to solidify. To accept that a Briton who cannot trace his family history outside of it has a right to literally go and live in my grandparents' private home and land while they are forced to live in exile because unlike the Britons, they were not born Jewish.

Thankfully talks of a two state "solution" are now increasingly becoming irrelevant, Israel itself ironically argues to their detriment in the long run that its not practical.
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Why should someone read your posts and walk away with the notion that it's practical?
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
Why should someone read your posts and walk away with the notion that it's practical?
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It was a great Jewish Zionist leader who once said "If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert." You might have heard of him, they have an Airport named after him in Israel.

I mean why do you think I care what any supporter of Israel's supposed right to exist as a Jewish state considers practical or not?

What I said can't be faulted really. I do not value the opinion of anyone who believes essentially in Jewish (or non Jewish for that matter) supremacy, believes that the current squatter family that actually lives in my grandfathers private property (whom he actually once visited), that was 'given' to them by the Jewish Colonial Fund (now renamed the JNF) is actually entitled to it by the mere fact that they, unlike him, were born a special superior race of human, while simultaneously his demand (like the demand of other refugees) to return to their property, their homeland, and be compensated is characterized as form of antisemitic racism because it inconveniences said squatters and therefor it is not practical.
 
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Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
It was a great Jewish Zionist leader who once said "If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert." You might have heard of him, they have an Airport named after him in Israel.

I mean why do you think I care what any supporter of Israel's supposed right to exist as a Jewish state considers practical or not?

What I said can't be faulted really. I do not value the opinion of anyone who believes essentially in Jewish (or non Jewish for that matter) supremacy, believes that the current squatter family that actually lives in my grandfathers private property (whom he actually once visited), that was 'given' to them by the Jewish Colonial Fund (now renamed the JNF) is actually entitled to it by the mere fact that they, unlike him, were born a special superior race of human, while simultaneously his demand (like the demand of other refugees) to return to their property, their homeland, and be compensated is characterized as form of antisemitic racism because it inconveniences said squatters and therefor it is not practical.
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That's a lot of blather and not a drop of it addressed what I said. If the Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution, which is the central (and only) path toward a peaceful solution that doesn't involve mass murder of one of the groups, then again, why should Israel be expected to see a two state solution as practical? It's a bizarre criticism.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
That's a lot of blather and not a drop of it addressed what I said.
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It did address what you said quite succinctly, I believe you are not capable of giving a meaningful response.

If the Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution, which is the central (and only) path toward a peaceful solution that doesn't involve mass murder of one of the groups
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Implying that mass murder of Palestinians did not happen or that it is not through the work of terrorist organizations, war and conquer that Israel was declared a state in Palestine at the expense of the rights of Palestinians.

No, there has already been and continues to be mass murder of Palestinian people, you just choose not to not acknowledge it because its victims throughout the decades have been mainly Arab but I can assure you we keep count. It was the Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish who wrote the following popular poem:

Gentlemen, you have transformed
our country into a graveyard

You have planted bullets in our heads,
and organized massacres

Gentlemen, nothing passes like that
without account

All what you have done
to our people is registered in notebooks.
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why should Israel be expected to see a two state solution as practical?
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I am not the one advocating for Jewish privilege and supremacy as the only path to peace, the only way to avoid "mass murder" here. You should ask yourself that.
 
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Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
It did address what you said quite succinctly, I believe you are not capable of giving a meaningful response.



Implying that mass murder of Palestinians did not happen or that it is not through the work of terrorist organizations, war and conquer that Israel was declared a state in Palestine at the expense of the rights of Palestinians.

No, there has already been and continues to be mass murder of Palestinian people, you just choose not to not acknowledge it because its victims throughout the decades have been mainly Arab.



I am not the one advocating for Jewish privilege and supremacy as the only path to peace, the only way to avoid "mass murder" here. You should ask yourself that.
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I was actually referring to the mass murder of the Jews should they actually be overwhelmed. We all understand from the extraordinary Palestinian hatred that should that actually happen, that's going to be a dark goddamn day. One thing you absolutely will not see is Saladin the Great taking the country and graciously letting everyone live. Personally, I don't think a single man, woman or child would be spared.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

L0neW0lf said:
What I said can't be faulted really. I do not value the opinion of anyone who believes essentially in Jewish (or non Jewish for that matter) supremacy, believes that the current squatter family that actually lives in my grandfathers private property (whom he actually once visited), that was 'given' to them by the Jewish Colonial Fund (now renamed the JNF) is actually entitled to it by the mere fact that they, unlike him, were born a special superior race of human, while simultaneously his demand (like the demand of other refugees) to return to their property, their homeland, and be compensated is characterized as form of antisemitic racism because it inconveniences said squatters and therefor it is not practical.
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This would be fair if not for the special circumstances surrounding Jewish nationalism and the establishment of Israel. There was a systematic attempt to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth where most of them actually lived, and there were pogroms against Jews in Arab nations that had nothing to do with Zionism (although the state of Jews in Arab countries worsened significantly after the establishment of Israel). Keeping that in mind, it's entirely fair that, in an area where Jews had been settling for generations already, Jewish-majority areas be given to a Jewish state and Arab-majority areas be given an Arab state.

Of course, anyone who was displaced from their rightful property should be compensated.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

MadLib said:
This would be fair if not for the special circumstances surrounding Jewish nationalism and the establishment of Israel. There was a systematic attempt to wipe the Jewish people off the face of the earth where most of them actually lived, and there were pogroms against Jews in Arab nations that had nothing to do with Zionism (although the state of Jews in Arab countries worsened significantly after the establishment of Israel). Keeping that in mind, it's entirely fair that, in an area where Jews had been settling for generations already, Jewish-majority areas be given to a Jewish state and Arab-majority areas be given an Arab state.

Of course, anyone who was displaced from their rightful property should be compensated.
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The thing is Israel doesn't even want the West Bank which is the portion legitimately in contention. Neither did Jordan when the West Bank was their headache. Would you want that nightmare?
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

Cardinal said:
The thing is Israel doesn't even want the West Bank which is the portion legitimately in contention. Neither did Jordan when the West Bank was their headache. Would you want that nightmare?
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L0neW0lf has stated previously that he thinks Israel as a state should be eliminated. Barring the obvious fact that no Israeli in their right mind would allow that to happen, it actually contradicts the right of self-determination which LW claims it would be upholding. Unfortunately, this kind of attitude is why there will be no Palestinian state for the foreseeable future.
 
Re: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist

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Please return to the topic of the thread: At least 5 dead, including American tourist, in West Bank and Tel Aviv terrorist attack

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