Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank

Apocalypse said:

You can't call Hamas' actions "resistance", claim that the mass murder of completely innocent people is justified and that one of the most brutal, monstrous and inhuman terror organizations in the world is some legitimate body and then complain about Israel and its building of settlements. If one is arguing morality one must stick to human morality all along the argument, one would think. It's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Since this topic has to do with Hamas, I'll stick primarily, to that.

#2, below responds to your false “moral equivalency” accusation.

There are absolutely no acts carried out by Hamas that begin to rival IDFs globally condemned, "brutal, monstrous and inhuman" mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead", Pillar of Cloud", "Protective Edge" etc in which thousands of innocent civilians were burned to death and/or suffocated, crushed & mutilated by IDF's air strikes, alone.

During "Protective Edge", alone, Hamas, with its primitive arsenal killed roughly 10 Soldiers per civilian.
(Roughly 60 IDF vs 6 Civilians)

With the most advanced weaponry available, IDF succeeded in killing far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas fighters.

The total Palestinian civilian Body Count continues to rise from those Palestinian civilians who continue to die from wounds, many inflicted by IDF’s use of illegal, chemical, genotoxic ordinance creating untreatable wounds never seen by experienced physicians.(1)



1. Your rarely held opinion that Hamas is: "....one of the most brutal, monstrous and inhuman terror organizations in the world ....." is a sentiment held by relatively few people & governments around the world.

Among the many countries who recognize Hamas as a justified Resistance group & essential Social Service provider are:

"It [Hamas] is not regarded as a terrorist organization by Iran,[27] Russia,[28] Norway,[29] Switzerland,[30] Brazil,[31] Turkey,[32] China,[33][34][35][36] and Qatar." (2)

Scotland is currently considering declassifying Hamas as a "Terrorist" and those governments who do classify Hamas as "Terrorist" are heavily influenced by powerful Israeli lobbies & a pro Israel bias Major Media.


2. I clearly mentioned Israel's relentless Settlement expansion / Home demolition crimes only as an example establishing the Israeli governments rejection of any Peace initiative. Not as an example of additional, murderous IDF attacks & invasions against which Hamas is forced to Resist & repel.
However, countless Palestinians have quietly died from exposure after Israel's illegal Home demolitions.

3. What are Hamas' motives behind their declaring a unwinnable struggle?

Major Media refuses to present the daily persecution, humiliation & executions of Occupied Palestinians. There are never interviews with Palestinian family members whose homes & farms have been demolished leaving them to die of exposure during the cold winter months.

"60 Minutes" would never present the routine beatings, humiliations & executions that occur at "Checkpoints".

The only time Occupied Palestinians have their decades old persecution presented to the world is after the launching of primitive & generally harmless Rockets.
(30 Israelis have died from ALL Hamas rockets, total)

Some analysts see the rockets as “Rescue Flares” in a desperate attempt to draw global attention & relief from the most atrocious Man Made Disaster in modern times.

Apparently, Hamas sees its choices as to either to resist or meekly submit to the continuation of 60 years of mass slaughter & homeland confiscation by a determined invader to which Peace has proven to be anathema.

How many invaded & brutally Occupied populations have chosen to meekly to a murderous Occupation?



(1)“Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources”
Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources

(2) “Hamas”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

B'smith said:

Since this topic has to do with Hamas, I'll stick primarily, to that.

#2, below responds to your false “moral equivalency” accusation.

There are absolutely no acts carried out by Hamas that begin to rival IDFs globally condemned, "brutal, monstrous and inhuman" mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead", Pillar of Cloud", "Protective Edge" etc in which thousands of innocent civilians were burned to death and/or suffocated, crushed & mutilated by IDF's air strikes, alone.

Click to expand...

That's like claiming the US is worse than ISIS because more have died by American bombs, it's an obvious logical fallacy and an absurd one that appeals to pure numbers as somehow being some superior kind of evidence. It's obviously false, Hamas is a terror organization and the IDF is the military of a Western democracy that is employed so to defend the citizens of Israel from terrorism, in this case from the terrorism employed by Hamas, which is well documented mind you despite of your attempts to deny that such actions constitute as terrorism.

During "Protective Edge", alone, Hamas, with its primitive arsenal killed roughly 10 Soldiers per civilian.
(Roughly 60 IDF vs 6 Civilians)

Click to expand...

Obviously because Israeli soldiers have entered the Gaza Strip by the masses. Have Hamas had the same access to Israeli civilians it would just kill them as well. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Trying to claim that the numbers in that case somehow mean anything is a logical fallacy that again purely appeals to numbers. It's absurd and nonsensical.

With the most advanced weaponry available, IDF succeeded in killing far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas fighters.

Click to expand...

Hamas use of Palestinians as human shields in attempt to get as many of them killed as possible is well documented.
Israel publishes 'Hamas manual' boasting about value of Gaza civilian deaths | Daily Mail Online

It is very difficult to avoid the deaths of civilians in such a long and massive campaign against a small area ruled by an organization that wishes to have the population it governs killed for PR purposes, yet Israel did more than any other nation has ever done in the history of humanity on the humanitarian field.

1. Your rarely held opinion that Hamas is: "....one of the most brutal, monstrous and inhuman terror organizations in the world ....." is a sentiment held by relatively few people & governments around the world.

Among the many countries who recognize Hamas as a justified Resistance group & essential Social Service provider are:

Click to expand...

First of all that's another logical fallacy to appeal to what some nations consider terror groups (and to include China, Russia, Iran and Qatar on top of that) as a decisive factor in whether or not said organization is a terror organization. Hamas engages in terrorism and it does so no less than any other dominating terror group on this planet. It is a terror organization because its actions are acts of terror, ever since it was established and up to this day it had taken the lives of countless of innocents on both sides of the border and for that it is considered to be one of the most brutal terror organizations on the planet.

Secondly, your line about these nations that do not have Hamas in their lists automatically referring to it as a justified "Resistance group" is bizarre, surreal, and simply not true. Norway does not regard the terrorists of Hamas and their actions as a 'legitimate resistance', for example.

This is why, as I stated previously, one cannot discuss morality and accuse Israel of wrongdoings as long as he supports the actions of Hamas and regards them as "legitimate acts of resistance". It's simply ridiculous, like complaining about the bombing of the hospital in Afghanistan by the US while believing that ISIS/al-Qaeda/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/etc. actions are entirely legitimate.

Apocalypse said:

That's like claiming the US is worse than ISIS because more have died by American bombs, it's an obvious logical fallacy and an absurd one that appeals to pure numbers as somehow being some superior kind of evidence.

EDITED FOR SPACE

..... again purely appeals to numbers. It's absurd and nonsensical.



Hamas use of Palestinians as human shields in attempt to get as many of them killed as possible is well documented.



First of all that's another logical fallacy to appeal to what some nations consider terror groups (and to include China, Russia, Iran and Qatar on top of that) as a decisive factor in whether or not said organization is a terror organization. Hamas engages in terrorism and it does so no less than any other dominating terror group on this planet. ... one of the most brutal terror organizations on the planet.

This is why, as I stated previously, one cannot discuss morality and accuse Israel of wrongdoings as long as he supports the actions of Hamas and regards them as "legitimate acts of resistance". It's simply ridiculous, like complaining about the bombing of the hospital in Afghanistan by the US while believing that ISIS/al-Qaeda/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/etc. actions are entirely legitimate.

Click to expand...

Clear signs of a failed, flawed & desperate argument include repeatedly chanting "Terrorist, Terrorist, Terrorist", citing your opinion as fact, (1) rejecting fact with ad hominem dismissal(2), & implying that Palestinian lives don't count as much as Israeli lives(3)

You are unable to refute the simple fact that Occupied Palestinians are left with only Resistance, death or meek submission to life under a ruthless Occupation as their only options.

Even those who attempt to excuse Israel's massacres & criminal seizure Palestinian Homes must admit that they would not meekly submit to the same fate

Since the invasion of Foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs, Irgun, Stern Gang, Haganah etc. & Israel's 1948 adoption of a murderous enslavement "Solution" under Plan Dalet, confiscation of Palestinian Homes, Farms & villages has been brutally relentless

What were Israel's founding Fathers if not foreign funded, mass murdering Terrorists? While Shamir, Sharon & Begin later wore ties, their agenda remained the same: kill or expel members of Palestine's Native population & seize the lands by any means possible, legal or otherwise

Only a few decades ago, Haganah was indisputably a foreign funded Terrorist Gang. Today they wear foreign funded uniforms, have access to the most sophisticated, foreign funded war planes, warships & heavy weaponry. Their objectives, too, remain to kill or expel members of Palestine's Native population & seize the lands by any means possible, legal or otherwise.

Since you cannot name another people who have not resisted a Foreign Invasion & decades old, murderous Occupation, you are obviously unwilling or unable to differentiate between "Terrorism" & Justified Resistance.

What choices do they have when faced with Netanyahu's relentless Home demolition, illegal Settlement Expansionism, repeated massacres & absolute rejection of any just Peace? Israel has been "Talking" peace (aka Stalling) for decades while continuing to expand Settlements, seize, & slaughter by the thousands.

Yes, intentionally targeting & killing civilians by the thousands is worse than incidentally killing them by the dozens.

“‘My first bullet, his last breath’: Instagram reveals dark side of Israeli army (PHOTOS)”
‘My first bullet, his last breath’: Instagram reveals dark side of Israeli army (PHOTOS) — RT News

EXCERPT “Disturbing photos that show IDF soldiers enjoying their dominance over Palestinians in the occupied territories have caused a huge public outcry. They also triggered an online search for more such content posted by Israeli troops in social media."CONTINUED




(1) “.......it [Hamas] is considered to be one of the most brutal terror organizations on the planet.”

(1) “.....Hamas use of Palestinians as human shields...is well documented.”

(2) “.......It's absurd and nonsensical.”
“......bizarre, surreal, and simply not true.”
“.......that's another logical fallacy’
“.......It's simply ridiculous,”


(3) ".....pure numbers as somehow being some superior kind of evidence."

B'smith said:

Since this topic has to do with Hamas, I'll stick primarily, to that.

#2, below responds to your false “moral equivalency” accusation.

There are absolutely no acts carried out by Hamas that begin to rival IDFs globally condemned, "brutal, monstrous and inhuman" mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead", Pillar of Cloud", "Protective Edge" etc in which thousands of innocent civilians were burned to death and/or suffocated, crushed & mutilated by IDF's air strikes, alone.

During "Protective Edge", alone, Hamas, with its primitive arsenal killed roughly 10 Soldiers per civilian.
(Roughly 60 IDF vs 6 Civilians)

With the most advanced weaponry available, IDF succeeded in killing far more Palestinian civilians than Hamas fighters.

The total Palestinian civilian Body Count continues to rise from those Palestinian civilians who continue to die from wounds, many inflicted by IDF’s use of illegal, chemical, genotoxic ordinance creating untreatable wounds never seen by experienced physicians.(1)



1. Your rarely held opinion that Hamas is: "....one of the most brutal, monstrous and inhuman terror organizations in the world ....." is a sentiment held by relatively few people & governments around the world.

Among the many countries who recognize Hamas as a justified Resistance group & essential Social Service provider are:

"It [Hamas] is not regarded as a terrorist organization by Iran,[27] Russia,[28] Norway,[29] Switzerland,[30] Brazil,[31] Turkey,[32] China,[33][34][35][36] and Qatar." (2)

Scotland is currently considering declassifying Hamas as a "Terrorist" and those governments who do classify Hamas as "Terrorist" are heavily influenced by powerful Israeli lobbies & a pro Israel bias Major Media.


2. I clearly mentioned Israel's relentless Settlement expansion / Home demolition crimes only as an example establishing the Israeli governments rejection of any Peace initiative. Not as an example of additional, murderous IDF attacks & invasions against which Hamas is forced to Resist & repel.
However, countless Palestinians have quietly died from exposure after Israel's illegal Home demolitions.

3. What are Hamas' motives behind their declaring a unwinnable struggle?

Major Media refuses to present the daily persecution, humiliation & executions of Occupied Palestinians. There are never interviews with Palestinian family members whose homes & farms have been demolished leaving them to die of exposure during the cold winter months.

"60 Minutes" would never present the routine beatings, humiliations & executions that occur at "Checkpoints".

The only time Occupied Palestinians have their decades old persecution presented to the world is after the launching of primitive & generally harmless Rockets.
(30 Israelis have died from ALL Hamas rockets, total)

Some analysts see the rockets as “Rescue Flares” in a desperate attempt to draw global attention & relief from the most atrocious Man Made Disaster in modern times.

Apparently, Hamas sees its choices as to either to resist or meekly submit to the continuation of 60 years of mass slaughter & homeland confiscation by a determined invader to which Peace has proven to be anathema.

How many invaded & brutally Occupied populations have chosen to meekly to a murderous Occupation?



(1)“Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources”
Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources

(2) “Hamas”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Click to expand...

Why does Hamas refuse to come to the peace table?
Hamas refuses to accept the existence of Israel.
Israel had a clear right to defend its citizens in those wars. Could they have ceased earlier, possible?
Hamas is much to busy planning attacks, and another war. They must maintain their position as the only ones opposing Israel.
To do that, means more killings, more wars.

B'smith said:

Clear signs of a failed, flawed & desperate argument include repeatedly chanting "Terrorist, Terrorist, Terrorist", citing your opinion as fact, (1) rejecting fact with ad hominem dismissal(2), & implying that Palestinian lives don't count as much as Israeli lives(3)

(1) “it [Hamas] is considered to be one of the most brutal terror organizations on the planet.”

(2) “.......It's absurd and nonsensical.”
“......bizarre, surreal, and simply not true.”
“.......that's another logical fallacy’
“.......It's simply ridiculous,”

(3) ".....pure numbers as somehow being some superior kind of evidence."

Click to expand...

Hamas is a terror group and that is a well accepted fact due to its long history of terrorism that has no competition by any other Islamic terror organization. If you wish to debunk that, which IMO is just like trying to debunk that the skies are blue, you might as well just open a thread about it. This thread is not about whether or not Hamas is a terror group as far as I'm aware so I see no point discussing your baseless claim here.

Secondly, it's good that you document your use of strawman arguments and the obvious and ridiculous twisting of my words. First of all none of the examples brought in the above passage counts as "ad hominem", which is an attack on the character or motive of the poster. Saying that something is absurd, simply not true, etc. has nothing to do with your character, so that's an easy-to-expose lie there. Likewise, the claim that I made a statement saying that Israeli lives and Palestinian lives aren't equal because I stated the obvious truth - that number of deaths does not and contrary to your claim suggest intention or which side engages at atrocities and the murder of innocents (Hamas) and which side protects its civilians from said organization (Israel). Like I pointed above the argument is flawed and illogical and it's like claiming that the US forces are worse than ISIS because US bombs have taken more lives than ISIS have. Again, a ridiculous nonsensical argument that holds no water.

You are unable to refute the simple fact that Occupied Palestinians are left with only Resistance, death or meek submission to life under a ruthless Occupation as their only options.

Click to expand...

Clearly that is your opinion, far from being a fact.

Even those who attempt to excuse Israel's massacres & criminal seizure Palestinian Homes must admit that they would not meekly submit to the same fate

Click to expand...

It's ridiculous to justify and support the murder of innocents and claim some form of moral superiority while doing so.

Since the invasion of Foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs(...)

Click to expand...

Irrelevant nonsense. Has nothing to do with the thread, or with reality.

What choices do they have when faced with Netanyahu's relentless Home demolition, illegal Settlement Expansionism, repeated massacres & absolute rejection of any just Peace? Israel has been "Talking" peace (aka Stalling) for decades while continuing to expand Settlements, seize, & slaughter by the thousands.

Click to expand...

Again, nothing justifies the murder of innocents and attempting to justify said murder by claiming "what other choice do they have" is immoral and asinine.

“‘My first bullet, his last breath’: Instagram reveals dark side of Israeli army (PHOTOS)”
‘My first bullet, his last breath’: Instagram reveals dark side of Israeli army (PHOTOS) — RT News

EXCERPT “Disturbing photos that show IDF soldiers enjoying their dominance over Palestinians in the occupied territories have caused a huge public outcry. They also triggered an online search for more such content posted by Israeli troops in social media."CONTINUED

Click to expand...

Nothing disturbing here. First of all that's RT, a Russian state-owned propaganda outlet so it makes it irrelevant. Additionally the shirt clearly shows a person holding a gun being shot, thus clearly implying a terrorist and not some innocent civilian. Hence nothing disturbing, terrorists should be killed, be they from Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram or any other inhuman organization.

Anomalism said:

You know exactly what I was saying. You're acting as if Israel is an innocent victim of unprovoked attacks and that's asinine. I've come a long way in my understanding of the Israel/Palestine conflict. I no longer believe Israel is the villain I once thought it was. However I also don't place all of the blame on Palestine. Both sides are guilty of doing ugly and heinous things. War is horrible, and nobody is innocent.

Click to expand...

They ought to get together and come up with an agreement to end all of this conflict, don't you think? I wonder why they haven't been able to do that up to now.

B'smith said:

Israel has never, not for a minute, treated the Palestinians as human beings with equal rights. It has never viewed their distress as understandable human and national distress.

Click to expand...

Perhaps that's because exposing the Jewish population to Palestinians has always resulted in Jewish deaths from attacks. Jews have to be separate from the Palestinians out of a need for security from such attacks. That has always been the case. Build a wall, keep the Palestinians away, and Jewish deaths plummet.

If the strictures that result for Palestinians leave them cut off from sources of income and they find it difficult to travel, and so forth, that's a shame, but it's hard for a reasonable person to blame the Israelis for wanting security for themselves.

It's hard to be sympathetic to people who want always to kill you. Not all Palestinians, but many of them. And the belligerents are impossible to separate from those who just want to live and let live.

Anti-Israeli people write as if they think that Jews should have no right to defend themselves. Israelis defend themselves from murderous Palestinians and they are accused by these people of treating Palestinians unfairly. It is as if anti-Israel people believe that little old Jewish women and babies have it coming to them.

The majority of Israelis agree with the land for peace type of negotiated settlement, but this has always been unacceptable to the Palestinian leaders.

JANFU said:

Why does Hamas refuse to come to the peace table?
Hamas refuses to accept the existence of Israel.
Israel had a clear right to defend its citizens in those wars. Could they have ceased earlier, possible?
Hamas is much to busy planning attacks, and another war. They must maintain their position as the only ones opposing Israel.
To do that, means more killings, more wars.

Click to expand...

It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if you know the history behind the Palestinian Resistance / Intifada & simply by looking at a map of Palestine in 1948 & today. Both will better explain the expansionist nature of Israel's development as a whole.

Please keep it in your mind that the early Zionist Terrorist Gangs as well as today's recent arrivals in Occupied Palestine are Foreign aggressors / invaders with some of today's most violent Zionist extremists coming from the US.

Hamas knows that more & more will come only to occupy more seized Palestinian land & must make its decisions based on that.

Since Israel's history has only been Expansionist in nature & Israel's existing Government clearly rejects a just Peace, Hamas is left with only Resistance as an option with the hope that objective foreign powers will pressure Israel into making a just & durable peace.

The attraction to Hamas by the majority of the Palestinians is based on what some remember & the rest are enduring, not what you see in US Major Media.

Younger Palestinians who have known nothing but life under this brutal & lethal Occupation seem to realize that their lives will be short whether they resist or not because the entire life experience of all Occupied Palestinians born after 1967 consists of planned & timed mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead" etc, checkpoint humiliations/beatings, the executions of their friends & relatives because ".....every Palestinian with a pulse is a "Terrorist".

Additionally, they have or are very likely to witness the demolition of their homes leaving their very young & very old to die from exposure & to see the taking of land that had been in their family for generations.

It is impossible for the average American to imagine such a dismal existence & unfair for them to pass judgement especially after being exposed to only the fraudulent & mythical Zionist narrative via US Major Media & Israel's PR movement.

Endless Zionist declarations & Regional history has proven that Israel's very raison d'être is to expand by any means & to the greatest extent possible.

Therefore, the Hamas declaration of intifada / Resistance is seen as the only choice for survival in the face of an Israeli government that has clearly displayed an obsession with Expansion & an abhorrence to a just peace based on legal borders. (as per UN #242 & #338) (1)

An even a "Greater Israel" is already outlined in their Oded Yinon Plan (1) and demanded by some of Israel's more radical Right Wing Extremists who grow in number with discouraging regularity. (2). My point is only to stress the extensive degree of Israeli expansionism faced by Hamas & Palestine's Native Residents.

Netanyahu has made his antipathy toward a just peace with the Palestinians by his crystal clear stated opposition (3) and, more significantly, his deeds.

After spending time in the region & objective study, you may realize that every statement you made could equally apply to Israel's string of Expansionist Governments.


Thanks





(1) “Zionist Plan for the Middle East” Paperback – Jun 1982
by Oded Yinon (Author), Israel Shahak (Translator)
Zionist Plan for the Middle East: Oded Yinon, Israel Shahak: 9780937694565: Books - Amazon.ca



(1) “The Yinon Plan, “Greater Israel”, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection”
http://www.timesofpol.com/the-yinon-plan-greater-israel-syria-iraq-and-isis-the-connection/
EXCERPT "The Atlantic, in 2008, and the U.S. military’s Armed Forces Journal, in 2006, both published widely circulated maps that closely followed the outline of the Yinon Plan. Aside from a divided Iraq, the Yinon Plan calls for a divided Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. The Yinon Plan also calls for dissolution in North Africa and forecasts it as starting from Egypt and then spilling over into Sudan, Libya, and the rest of the region......"CONTINUED





(2) “’It’s all ours': Israeli deputy FM slams Western interference, saying Holy Land is Jewish”
'It’s all ours': Israeli deputy FM slams Western interference, saying Holy Land is Jewish — RT News


(3) “Israel's PM Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch”
Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com

B'smith said:

It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if

Click to expand...

There is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds.
Trying to justify the actions of Hamas/ISIS/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/al-Qaeda/etc. absolves one of the ability to rationally discuss subjects of morality.

B'smith said:

It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if you know the history behind the Palestinian Resistance / Intifada & simply by looking at a map of Palestine in 1948 & today. Both will better explain the expansionist nature of Israel's development as a whole.



(1) “Zionist Plan for the Middle East” Paperback – Jun 1982
by Oded Yinon (Author), Israel Shahak (Translator)
Zionist Plan for the Middle East: Oded Yinon, Israel Shahak: 9780937694565: Books - Amazon.ca



(1) “The Yinon Plan, “Greater Israel”, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection”
http://www.timesofpol.com/the-yinon-plan-greater-israel-syria-iraq-and-isis-the-connection/
EXCERPT "The Atlantic, in 2008, and the U.S. military’s Armed Forces Journal, in 2006, both published widely circulated maps that closely followed the outline of the Yinon Plan. Aside from a divided Iraq, the Yinon Plan calls for a divided Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. The Yinon Plan also calls for dissolution in North Africa and forecasts it as starting from Egypt and then spilling over into Sudan, Libya, and the rest of the region......"CONTINUED





(2) “’It’s all ours': Israeli deputy FM slams Western interference, saying Holy Land is Jewish”
'It’s all ours': Israeli deputy FM slams Western interference, saying Holy Land is Jewish — RT News


(3) “Israel's PM Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch”
Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com

Click to expand...

Just as an aside. If you are going to post "information" you might want to use either credible are accessible sources. Your first source links to a book that is nothing but an essay. It starts with "The following essay represents, in my opinion". That doesn't give it much credibility. The second is a dead link. The third is to a Russian "news" site, pretty well known for being a Russian propaganda site. And the last... well that premise of yours was already taken apart a few days ago.

As for the rest of what you wrote, it seems like you consistently miss the point. I'm sure it's nice to consider that things are so simple as to blame one side for everything. That's neither how things work, nor a refection of reality.

Apocalypse said:

There is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds.
Trying to justify the actions of Hamas/ISIS/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/al-Qaeda/etc. absolves one of the ability to rationally discuss subjects of morality.

Click to expand...

Nowhere in my post or elsewhere have I tried to to "justify" the killing of innocents by: "Hamas/ISIS/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/al-Qaeda/etc".

I was attempting to provide a perspective of the conflict through the eyes of the Occupied rather than another repetition of the usual, fraudulent Zionist narrative.

Since the topic has to do only with Hamas' Resistance decisions, I was attempting to explain the cause & effect of a native population to a foreign invasion, mass killing of innocents & ruthless occupation by Western funded Zionist Terrorist Gangs like Irgun, Stern, Haganah etc.

Sadly, leaders of those same Terrorist Gangs became leaders of the Israeli state & perpetuated much of the same violent Occupation & expansionist agenda.

I don't know how one can enthusiastically support each & every Israeli War Crime, illegal use of banned weaponry, illegal Expansion, Collective Punishment & indiscriminate mass slaughter of thousands & concurrently, pass judgement on "....the ability to rationally discuss subjects of morality."

I agree completely with your assertion: "There is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds."

However, your abhorrence at the slaughter of: "....innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds......" would ring more genuine if your condemnation was equally applied to all forms of terrorism including State Terrorism.

B'smith said:

Since Israel's history has only been Expansionist in nature & Israel's existing Government clearly rejects a just Peace, Hamas is left with only Resistance as an option with the hope that objective foreign powers will pressure Israel into making a just & durable peace.

[snipped for length]

Click to expand...

When "just peace" to Palestinians means wiping Israel off the face of the earth peace isn't possible. When opening up access to Israel means exposing the population to terrorist attack then no such opening is possible. Palestinians need Jewish commerce and jobs to live better lives but find it difficult because of the continuing need for security from Palestinian attacks. With a true peace that recognizes the right of Israel to exist all of the difficulties that Palestinians face would be alleviated, but the Palestinian leadership has vowed never to agree to such a peace.

No nation should be expected to commit suicide.

B'smith said:

Nowhere in my post or elsewhere have I tried to to "justify" the killing of innocents by: "Hamas/ISIS/Hezbollah/Boko Haram/al-Qaeda/etc".

Click to expand...

I've responded to this part of your post:

B'smith said:

It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if

Click to expand...

Which is why I repeat, there is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds.

I don't know how one can enthusiastically support each & every Israeli War Crime, illegal use of banned weaponry, illegal Expansion, Collective Punishment & indiscriminate mass slaughter of thousands & concurrently, pass judgement on "....the ability to rationally discuss subjects of morality."

Click to expand...

Because your opinions aren't facts, and in fact Israel does not engage in any of the above and is clearly a democratic nation defending itself from terrorism. Hence there is no contradiction between supporting Israel and being a moral person, unlike the clear contradiction that exists in excusing the actions of organizations based on political murder while discussing subjects of morality from a falsely presumed position of superiority.

I agree completely with your assertion: "There is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds."

Click to expand...

Then clearly you must realize that your previous argument is a very immoral one.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Just as an aside. If you are going to post "information" you might want to use either credible are accessible sources. Your first source links to a book that is nothing but an essay. It starts with "The following essay represents, in my opinion". That doesn't give it much credibility. The second is a dead link. The third is to a Russian "news" site, pretty well known for being a Russian propaganda site. And the last... well that premise of yours was already taken apart a few days ago.

As for the rest of what you wrote, it seems like you consistently miss the point. I'm sure it's nice to consider that things are so simple as to blame one side for everything. That's neither how things work, nor a refection of reality.

Click to expand...

I am reluctant to stray from the topic: "Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank" but will attempt to address the issues you raised:

1. I only cited the book by Oded Yinon because a Poster with whom you consistently agree claimed Oded Yinon didn't exist & I assumed others may share the same mistaken view.

2. The 2nd source: “The Yinon Plan, “Greater Israel”, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection” was live at that site 8 days ago. I apologize that it is now "dead".

It is, however readily available elsewhere; for example: The Yinon Plan, ?Greater Israel?, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection | Economy

If you are dissatisfied with that source, another is:

“From the "Yinon Plan" to the "Ya’alon Strategy"
From the "Yinon Plan" to the "Ya'alon Strategy", by Alfredo Jalife-Rahme

By: Alfredo Jalife-Rahme: Social and political sciences Professor at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM). His columns on international politics feature regularly in the Mexican daily La Jornada. (Mexico is not normally noted as a hotbed of anti Israeli sentiment)

EXCERPT “the 1982 Oded Yinon Plan and Moshe Ya’alon’s present-day strategy. While endorsing the vision of both plans, Israel continues to pursue its own balkanization agenda. Historically, Israel has always sought to dismember the countries surrounding her.
During the five-day trip he made to the United States, Israeli defense minister Moshe Ya’alon told Steve Inskeep, one of the hosts of Morning Edition on National Public Radio that "MidEast borders ‘absolutely’ will change"*[1].
Ya’alon follows to the letter the balkanization process of the "Yinon Plan", named after a former Israeli Foreign Ministry official*[Oded Yinon]" CONTINUED

- My reason for bring up the Oded Yinon Plan / "Greater Israel" issue at all was to illustrate the solid expansionist agenda of many Right Wing, Zionist Policymakers with which Hamas must contend.

3. Re: "RT", the same poster who denied Oded Yinon's existence had the same complaint: " a Russian propaganda site." My experience has been that individual judgements as to a source's credibility very frequently depend on their agreement with that individual's stance on an issue.

4. Re: Your assertion: "And the last... well that premise of yours was already taken apart a few days ago..."

Since I don't know, specifically, to what you are referring by: "...that premise of yours.." I don't know how to respond except to say that generally whether a premise is: "...taken apart ..." or not is usually a matter of opinion.

5. Your closing phrase: "As for the rest of what you wrote, it seems like you consistently miss the point......"etc

I'd be happy to respond if you could be more specific as to what points I missed.




Thanks

B'smith said:

I am reluctant to stray from the topic: "Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank" but will attempt to address the issues you raised:

1. I only cited the book by Oded Yinon because a Poster with whom you consistently agree claimed Oded Yinon didn't exist & I assumed others may share the same mistaken view.

Click to expand...

The point actually was that what Oded Yinon wrote is opinion, as I cited in an excerpt of what he wrote, HIS opinion. Opinion and fact are not the same.

2. The 2nd source: “The Yinon Plan, “Greater Israel”, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection” was live at that site 8 days ago. I apologize that it is now "dead".

It is, however readily available elsewhere; for example: The Yinon Plan, ?Greater Israel?, Syria, Iraq, and ISIS: the Connection | Economy

If you are dissatisfied with that source, another is:

“From the "Yinon Plan" to the "Ya’alon Strategy"
From the "Yinon Plan" to the "Ya'alon Strategy", by Alfredo Jalife-Rahme

By: Alfredo Jalife-Rahme: Social and political sciences Professor at the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM). His columns on international politics feature regularly in the Mexican daily La Jornada. (Mexico is not normally noted as a hotbed of anti Israeli sentiment)

EXCERPT “the 1982 Oded Yinon Plan and Moshe Ya’alon’s present-day strategy. While endorsing the vision of both plans, Israel continues to pursue its own balkanization agenda. Historically, Israel has always sought to dismember the countries surrounding her.
During the five-day trip he made to the United States, Israeli defense minister Moshe Ya’alon told Steve Inskeep, one of the hosts of Morning Edition on National Public Radio that "MidEast borders ‘absolutely’ will change"*[1].
Ya’alon follows to the letter the balkanization process of the "Yinon Plan", named after a former Israeli Foreign Ministry official*[Oded Yinon]" CONTINUED

- My reason for bring up the Oded Yinon Plan / "Greater Israel" issue at all was to illustrate the solid expansionist agenda of many Right Wing, Zionist Policymakers with which Hamas must contend.

Click to expand...

I've read the "Yinon Plan". It's still opinion and you are presenting it as a fact.

3. Re: "RT", the same poster who denied Oded Yinon's existence had the same complaint: " a Russian propaganda site." My experience has been that individual judgements as to a source's credibility very frequently depend on their agreement with that individual's stance on an issue.

Click to expand...

I take sourcing very seriously. I've been involved in research in the past, and without credible sourcing, what one says is pretty meaningless. Read what you just wrote above. You probably need to follow your own advice.

4. Re: Your assertion: "And the last... well that premise of yours was already taken apart a few days ago..."

Since I don't know, specifically, to what you are referring by: "...that premise of yours.." I don't know how to respond except to say that generally whether a premise is: "...taken apart ..." or not is usually a matter of opinion.

Click to expand...

Your position that Netanyahu will prevent a Palestinian state on his watch. That position has been shown to be false. I did it myself when you posted it last. He said what he did to pander to right wingers in the election... and then refuted his own statement after elected. It's what politicians do.

5. Your closing phrase: "As for the rest of what you wrote, it seems like you consistently miss the point......"etc

I'd be happy to respond if you could be more specific as to what points I missed.




Thanks

Click to expand...

Here's my challenge to you... it's a similar challenge that I made to anti-Israeli posters about 7 or 8 years ago on this very forum. Here is a statement you made: "the solid expansionist agenda of many Right Wing, Zionist Policymakers with which Hamas must contend". You post a lot in the ME Forum, hence seem to know a bit about issues in the ME. Here's your challenge: what things that Hamas does/directs do the Israeli people need to contend with? From what I see in your posting, you seem to miss the point that there are problems from both sides. Your answer to my challenge could clear that up.

Apocalypse said:

I've responded to this part of your post:



Which is why I repeat, there is no excuse for the political murder of innocents based on their nationality, ethnic or religious backgrounds.




Because your opinions aren't facts, and in fact Israel does not engage in any of the above and is clearly a democratic nation defending itself from terrorism. Hence there is no contradiction between supporting Israel and being a moral person, unlike the clear contradiction that exists in excusing the actions of organizations based on political murder while discussing subjects of morality from a falsely presumed position of superiority.



Then clearly you must realize that your previous argument is a very immoral one.

Click to expand...

1. I've never heard even the most strident of Zionists claim to be a more moral person because they support internationally condemned State Terrorism such as: illegal Collective Punishment, illegal & provocative Settlement Expansionism, mass slaughter of thousands of civilians (i.e. "Cast Lead", "Pillar of Cloud", "Protective Edge" etc) & the illegal use of banned Chemical Ordinance, D.I.M.E. bombs etc.
No, Israel’s murderous criminal excesses & Settlement Expansionism are not “Opinions”, they are internationally condemned Facts.


You can regurgitate the fraudulent, scripted cleche’ over & over:

“...democratic nation defending itself from terrorism...”

......as much as you want but 80% of the planet isn’t buying it:

“BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations” BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations - World - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News Source


2. When I said: "It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if....."

"to understand...." is not a synonym for "to excuse" Please use your Thesaurus



Yes, I support Israel's right to exist in peace but I do not support its Government's absolute rejection of Peace (1) & its historic unwillingness to deny Palestine's Native Population the right to their land, their very lives & any form of peaceful existence.
Remember, it was their land before the invasion of expansionist, foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs who came from afar.

Throughout history, brutal foreign Occupiers have laid claim to the moral high ground over Resistance groups from the native population they rule and not once has that Occupied population meekly submitted to the Occupiers murderous expansionism & survived.

Years from now, history will judge today’s brutal Zionist, Occupier no less harshly than it does other murderous Occupiers of the past







(1) “Israel's PM Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch”
Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com


(1) “Netanyahu Says No to Statehood for Palestinians”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/world/middleeast/benjamin-netanyahu-campaign-settlement.html?_r=0


(1) After Netanyahu’s politically expedient Peace flip-flop, he “pushed through” the more extensive use of live ammunition against civilians which is hardly the act of a genuine Peace Seeker:

“Israel relaxes live-fire rules against Palestinian stone-throwers”
Israel relaxes live-fire rules against Palestinian stone-throwers | World news | The Guardian
EXCERPT “ Israel’s security forces will have greater latitude to use live ammunition against Palestinians throwing stones and firebombs – including against minors – as part of a tough new series of measures pushed through by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu.”CONTUED

B'smith said:

1. I've never heard even the most strident of Zionists claim to be a more moral person because they support internationally condemned State Terrorism such as: illegal Collective Punishment, illegal & provocative Settlement Expansionism, mass slaughter of thousands of civilians (i.e. "Cast Lead", "Pillar of Cloud", "Protective Edge" etc) & the illegal use of banned Chemical Ordinance, D.I.M.E. bombs etc.
No, Israel’s murderous criminal excesses & Settlement Expansionism are not “Opinions”, they are internationally condemned Facts.

Click to expand...

The three operations you've listed were defensive operations clearly directed against terrorists who target Israeli civilians. While those opposing Israel clearly argue Israel has no right to self defense, that is far from being the truth and it was thus righteous for Israel to seek to defend itself and engage in these defensive operations against the terrorists of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, and other minor groups.
Regarding the "D.I.M.E chemical weapons etc." nonsense I've already debunked that multiple times and showed how you lack any real source to back these baseless conspiracy theories.

......as much as you want but 80% of the planet isn’t buying it:

“BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations” BBC Poll: Israel Among World's Least Popular Nations - World - Israel News - Haaretz Israeli News Source

Click to expand...

Thank you for proving that your argument relies on logical fallacies such as the one that the more people who hate Israel the wronger it is. Clearly in a world dominated by theocracies and dictatorships if anything this logical fallacy can only work to show that Israel is righteous, not the opposite.

2. When I said: "It is easier to understand why Hamas does what it does if....."

"to understand...." is not a synonym for "to excuse" Please use your Thesaurus

Click to expand...

Understanding their actions hints at the obvious belief that their actions of evil and monstrosity, labeled "resistance", have a form of legitimacy to them.
But if you believe that Hamas' actions are inexcusable then I absolutely agree.

Yes, I support Israel's right to exist in peace but I do not support its Government's absolute rejection of Peace (1) & its historic unwillingness to deny Palestine's Native Population the right to their land, their very lives & any form of peaceful existence.

Click to expand...

You can't support its right to exist in peace while believing that it has no right to engage in defensive operations against terrorists who target its citizens on a daily basis.

Remember, it was their land before the invasion of expansionist, foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs who came from afar.

Click to expand...

That is simply not true yet I'm not willing to derail this thread into the general (and awfully repeated) discussion of the historical context of the conflict. This is about individuals and organizations engaging in terrorism against Jewish civilians attempting to take away their lives.

Years from now, history will judge today’s brutal Zionist, Occupier no less harshly than it does other murderous Occupiers of the past

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that you believe so, just as I have no doubt that you're in the wrong.
Israel is the Western Democracy that cherishes the values of humanity and the glorifying of life over death, the other side is exactly the opposite.

(1) “Israel's PM Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch”
Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch - CNN.com

Click to expand...

Netanyahu to Abbas at the U.N.: I'm Ready to Resume Peace Talks - US News

Apocalypse said:

The three operations you've listed were defensive operations clearly directed against terrorists who target Israeli civilians. While those opposing Israel clearly argue Israel has no right to self defense, that is far from being the truth and it was thus righteous for Israel to seek to defend itself and engage in these defensive operations against the terrorists of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, and other minor groups.
Regarding the "D.I.M.E chemical weapons etc." nonsense I've already debunked that multiple times and showed how you lack any real source to back these baseless conspiracy theories.



Thank you for proving that your argument relies on logical fallacies such as the one that the more people who hate Israel the wronger it is. Clearly in a world dominated by theocracies and dictatorships if anything this logical fallacy can only work to show that Israel is righteous, not the opposite.



Understanding their actions hints at the obvious belief that their actions of evil and monstrosity, labeled "resistance", have a form of legitimacy to them.
But if you believe that Hamas' actions are inexcusable then I absolutely agree.



You can't support its right to exist in peace while believing that it has no right to engage in defensive operations against terrorists who target its citizens on a daily basis.



That is simply not true yet I'm not willing to derail this thread into the general (and awfully repeated) discussion of the historical context of the conflict. This is about individuals and organizations engaging in terrorism against Jewish civilians attempting to take away their lives.



I have no doubt that you believe so, just as I have no doubt that you're in the wrong.
Israel is the Western Democracy that cherishes the values of humanity and the glorifying of life over death, the other side is exactly the opposite.



Netanyahu to Abbas at the U.N.: I'm Ready to Resume Peace Talks - US News

Click to expand...

This topic is: "Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank" i.e. another example in which a Native Population has no option other than Resistance to survive against another of history's ruthless, & murderous, invading, & Expansionist Occupier who has proven through actions and words to make peace. Netanyahu is no more willing to MAKE peace with Hamas now than he has been through his entire political career.

Even though much of the world does not regard Hamas as a "Terrorist Group", Netanyahu does so he can avoid negotiating with "Terrorists" and continue to massacre & Expand until there is nothing left of Palestine or its Native Population.

Contrary to your denial of facts as real as gravity, Israeli government ruthlessness DOES extend to using Genotoxic, Chemical Weapons & illegal D.I.M.E. bombs:


"Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official "
Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official | Middle East | Worldbulletin News


“Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources”
Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources
EXCERPT “Eyewitnesses, meanwhile, have reported that Israeli airstrikes had incinerated the bodies of Palestinians who happened to be near targeted sites.
Israeli warplanes, they added, were using missiles that destroy their victims' bodies, often cutting them to pieces...."CONTINUED


“Banned Weapons Used In Israel-Palestine Conflict?”
Banned Weapons Used In Israel-Palestine Conflict?


No objective & rational person believes Israel's mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead" was "Defensive" as it was planned many months in advanced to occur during the Christmas Holidays and only days before the changing of US Presidential Inauguration. Additionally, "Defensive" Operations don't include the targeting of Civilian Infrastructure (Water treatment Plants, Power Plants etc)

So, we are back to the reality that Palestine's Native Population has only Resistance as a dismal & tragic option to aggressive slaughter, provocations & relentless, illegal Expansionism.

I abhor the loss of life on both sides but I'm afraid that that, too is an ugly reality away.until Israel adopts a genuine peace seeking government or Global initiatives pressure compels to do more than endlessly "Talk" Peace

The Palestinians have had so much taken that they have nothing left to give.

Apocalypse said:

The three operations you've listed were defensive operations clearly directed against terrorists who target Israeli civilians. While those opposing Israel clearly argue Israel has no right to self defense, that is far from being the truth and it was thus righteous for Israel to seek to defend itself and engage in these defensive operations against the terrorists of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, and other minor groups.
Regarding the "D.I.M.E chemical weapons etc." nonsense I've already debunked that multiple times and showed how you lack any real source to back these baseless conspiracy theories.



Thank you for proving that your argument relies on logical fallacies such as the one that the more people who hate Israel the wronger it is. Clearly in a world dominated by theocracies and dictatorships if anything this logical fallacy can only work to show that Israel is righteous, not the opposite.



Understanding their actions hints at the obvious belief that their actions of evil and monstrosity, labeled "resistance", have a form of legitimacy to them.
But if you believe that Hamas' actions are inexcusable then I absolutely agree.



You can't support its right to exist in peace while believing that it has no right to engage in defensive operations against terrorists who target its citizens on a daily basis.



That is simply not true yet I'm not willing to derail this thread into the general (and awfully repeated) discussion of the historical context of the conflict. This is about individuals and organizations engaging in terrorism against Jewish civilians attempting to take away their lives.



I have no doubt that you believe so, just as I have no doubt that you're in the wrong.
Israel is the Western Democracy that cherishes the values of humanity and the glorifying of life over death, the other side is exactly the opposite.



Netanyahu to Abbas at the U.N.: I'm Ready to Resume Peace Talks - US News

Click to expand...

This topic is: "Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank" i.e. another example in which a Native Population has no option other than Resistance to survive against another of history's ruthless, & murderous, invading, & Expansionist Occupiers who has proven through actions and words to shun peace. Netanyahu is no more willing to MAKE peace with Hamas now than he has been through his entire political career.

Abbas is not Hamas & one doesn't "push through" the use of live ammunition on civilians as a gesture of Peace.

Even though much of the world does not regard Hamas as a "Terrorist Group", Netanyahu does so he can avoid negotiating with "Terrorists" and continue to massacre & Expand until there is nothing left of Palestine or its Native Population.

Contrary to your denial of facts as real as gravity, Israeli government ruthlessness DOES extend to using Genotoxic, Chemical Weapons & illegal D.I.M.E. bombs:


"Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official "
Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official | Middle East | Worldbulletin News


“Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources”
Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources
EXCERPT “Eyewitnesses, meanwhile, have reported that Israeli airstrikes had incinerated the bodies of Palestinians who happened to be near targeted sites.
Israeli warplanes, they added, were using missiles that destroy their victims' bodies, often cutting them to pieces...."CONTINUED


“Banned Weapons Used In Israel-Palestine Conflict?”
Banned Weapons Used In Israel-Palestine Conflict?


No objective & rational person believes Israel's mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead" was "Defensive" as it was planned many months in advanced to occur during the Christmas Holidays and only days before the changing of US Presidential Inauguration. Additionally, "Defensive" Operations don't include the targeting of Civilian Infrastructure (Water treatment Plants, Power Plants etc)

So, we are back to the reality that Palestine's Native Population has only Resistance as a dismal & tragic option to aggressive slaughter, provocations & relentless, illegal Expansionism.

I abhor the loss of life on both sides but I'm afraid that that, too is an ugly reality until Israel adopts a genuine peace seeking government or Global initiatives pressure Israel to do more than endlessly "Talk" Peace

The Palestinians have had so much taken that they have nothing left to give.

B'smith said:

This topic is: "Hamas leader declares ‘intifada’ in the West Bank" i.e. another example in which a Native Population has no option other than Resistance

Click to expand...

Again, there is no excuse for the political murder of innocents. Nothing excuses the horrifying actions of Hamas, no matter what false narrative they believe in.

Even though much of the world does not regard Hamas as a "Terrorist Group", Netanyahu does so he can avoid negotiating with "Terrorists" and continue to massacre & Expand until there is nothing left of Palestine or its Native Population.

Click to expand...

The regarding of Hamas' as a terror group is really not up to Netanyahu. Its Hamas' actions of terrorism that label it a terror group.

Contrary to your denial of facts as real as gravity, Israeli government ruthlessness DOES extend to using Genotoxic, Chemical Weapons & illegal D.I.M.E. bombs:


"Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official "
Israel uses banned weapons in striking Gaza: Official | Middle East | Worldbulletin News


“Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources”
Israel using banned weapons in Gaza: Medical sources
EXCERPT “Eyewitnesses, meanwhile, have reported that Israeli airstrikes had incinerated the bodies of Palestinians who happened to be near targeted sites.
Israeli warplanes, they added, were using missiles that destroy their victims' bodies, often cutting them to pieces...."CONTINUED

Click to expand...

I have already debunked this ridiculous conspiracy theory several times.
The "source" makes reference to edited photos, made up "witnesses" and on top of it all the line; "Palestinian Health Ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qodra said that". It's simply ridiculous and pathetic.

No objective & rational person believes Israel's mass slaughters such as "Cast Lead" was "Defensive" as it was planned many months in advanced to occur during the Christmas Holidays and only days before the changing of US Presidential Inauguration. Additionally, "Defensive" Operations don't include the targeting of Civilian Infrastructure (Water treatment Plants, Power Plants etc)

Click to expand...

Clearly the opposite is true, no objective person can believe that actions of self-defense can be labeled "mass slaughters". That's simply an attempt to take away the right of Israeli Jews to live and to defend themselves from those who target them.

So, we are back to the reality that Palestine's Native Population has only Resistance as a dismal & tragic option to aggressive slaughter, provocations & relentless, illegal Expansionism.

Click to expand...

There is no excuse for the political murder of innocents.