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Why Are Liberals So Hostile Toward Israel? [W:206]

Hard Truth said:
He said nothing about Jews or even the people of Israel, it is a criticism of the Israeli government.

Which of these claims are not true? (I'll grant that occupied territories are not as bad as concentration camps.)
  • Nakba (The 1948 Palestinian exodus occurred when approximately 711,000 to 726,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1947–1948 Civil War... and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.-Wikipedia)
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  • Most Palestinian Refugees fled as opposed to being expelled... in a WAR their allies started. Many at the direction of Arab Armies to get out of the way.
    They hoped to prevent an Israel and possibly all the Jews in it.
    But they lost.
    War is a serious game. They were playing for keeps.
    Now, uniquely to THIS Conflict, all of a sudden it's 'Free Shots', everyone just go back to where they started.
    Nice work if everyone buys it.
    I don't.


    Hard Truth said:
    [*]Palestinian Arabs treated as 2nd class citizens
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    Where are you talking about?
    Israel?
    Jordan?
    'Occupied' territories?
    Lebanon?
    Syria?
    Rest of the Arab world?


    Hard Truth said:
    [*]Palestinian Arabs forcibly removed from their ancestral lands f
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    Basically False with some exceptions before 1948. (see my sig too)
    The 1948 War of course produce many such refugees.
    The 1967 war a much lesser amount.
    More recently, there is some 'Push' from Netanyahu & co, in places.


    Hard Truth said:
    [*]Palestinian Arabs placed in "occupied territories", aka concentration camps,
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    "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, Imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and Threw them into Prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The ARAB States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did Not Recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is Regrettable".

    - by Abu Mazen (aka Mahmoud Abbas), from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, March 1976

    From many More I cited at:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/63871-3-creation-1948-refugees.html
    Which answers who is MOST responsible for the Refugees with Many more Contemporary quotes from THEE most influential Arabs.



    Hard Truth said:
    [*]Palestinian killed at rates orders of magnitudes greater whenever they rise up in protest,
    ]
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    Postmodern Palestine
    The new amorality in the Middle East.
    Victor Davis Hanson on Middle East -- National Review Online
    March 29, 2002
    (Original Link expired, so Between War and Peace: Lessons from Afghanistan to Iraq - Victor Hanson - Google Books )

    There is a postmodern amorality afloat — the dividend of years of an American educational system in which historical ignorance, cultural relativism, and well-intentioned theory, in place of cold facts, has reigned. We see the sad results everywhere in the current discussions of the Middle East and our own war on terror.

    Palestinians appeal to the American public on grounds that three or four times as many of their own citizens have died as Israelis. The crazy logic is that in war the side that suffers the most casualties is either in the right or at least should be the winner.
    Some Americans nursed on the popular ideology of equivalence find this attractive. But if so, they should then sympathize with Hitler, Tojo, Kim Il Sung, and Ho Chi Minh who all lost more soldiers — and civilians — in their wars against us than we did.

    Perhaps a million Chinese were casualties in Korea, ten times the number of Americans killed, wounded, and missing. Are we then to forget that the Communists crossed the Yalu River to implement totalitarianism in the south — and instead agree that their catastrophic wartime sacrifices were proof of American culpability? Palestinians suffer more casualties than Israelis not because they wish to, or because they are somehow more moral — but because they are not as adept in fighting real soldiers in the full-fledged war that is growing out of their own intifada.

    We are told that Palestinian civilians who are killed by the Israeli Defense Forces are the moral equivalent of slaughtering Israeli civilians at schools, restaurants, and on buses.
    That should be a hard sell for Americans after September 11, who are currently bombing in Afghanistan to ensure that there are not more suicide murderers on our shores. This premise hinges upon the acceptance that the suicide bombers' deliberate butchering of civilians is the same as the collateral damage that occurs when soldiers retaliate against other armed combatants.
    [.........]​

    Palestinian/Arabs would be quite happy with equal or even proportional conflict: there being only 6 million Jews. Tho well armed.
    You will only stop a fight with disproportionate casualties inflicted on your enemy.
 
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washunut said:
As I said, Europeans have done their part of the job in the 20th century. I understand you are trying to force the remaining Jews (France as a good example) to leave and go to Israel. Then the Arabs can do your dirty work.

Hope you can understand that.
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Is that your opinion or do you make that statement based on facts? If you are stating the above as factual, please trot out your sources and document what you proffer as truth.
 
Why have so many Jewish Americans voted for liberal/moderate Democrats since the formation of Israel, between 70 and 80 percent on the average ??
 
Risky Thicket said:
Well, I'm an Independent, but I'd rephrase the question and ask why so many hard right conservatives are so pro-Israel.
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The OP needs to start over with Richard Nixon and John Sununu and rediscover which "side" they supported. Jewish Americans haven't forgotten and sure weren't fooled last election by the cards played by S. Adelson and Romney/Netanyahu .
 
NIMBY said:
The OP needs to start over with Richard Nixon and John Sununu and rediscover which "side" they supported. Jewish Americans haven't forgotten and sure weren't fooled last election by the cards played by S. Adelson and Romney/Netanyahu .
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Indeed.

Jews, I support. Israel, not so much.
 
I find that the distain for Israeli leadership, their military, and their policies crosses party lines, and is growing. Only in what can be considered the neo-con circles, and not within the ranks of true conservatives, is support for Israel so entrenched.

I love Israel. I love going there. I was long a supporter of that nation for most of my life, but I changed. I could no longer support a nation whose government operates so outlandishly without any regard for "all" the people within and outside its borders.

I think this latest episode will further segregate Israel from the world community. It has cast its lot as a pariah. As an American, we should withdraw all military and economic aid. It is not becoming of a nation's people that espouses liberty to stand by and soil ourselves in the support of a country that is now acting psychotically.
 
SayMyName said:
I find that the distain for Israeli leadership, their military, and their policies crosses party lines, and is growing. Only in what can be considered the neo-con circles, and not within the ranks of true conservatives, is support for Israel so entrenched.

I love Israel. I love going there. I was long a supporter of that nation for most of my life, but I changed. I could no longer support a nation whose government operates so outlandishly without any regard for "all" the people within and outside its borders.

I think this latest episode will further segregate Israel from the world community. It has cast its lot as a pariah. As an American, we should withdraw all military and economic aid. It is not becoming of a nation's people that espouses liberty to stand by and soil ourselves in the support of a country that is now acting psychotically.
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I understand your change--and from the Israeli end attribute current problems to 3rd and 4th parties that the Likud must make deals with to hold onto the Knesset. 3rd and 4th parties that demand settlements be built on occupied land, against the policy of every American President.

It takes more than one side to make war. But withdrawing military and economic aid to Israel would become a political nightmare, like everything else in our USA.

Once Congress goes home for all of August, they should be exiled from D.C. Let the SCOTUS and Legislative branch work everything out since all issues seemingly wind up there anyway--thus bypassing Congress, both the Senate and House, unclogging two arteries ..
 
I was a strong supporter of Isreal and Im definitely no liberal but my stance has completely changed. I used to think that Palestinians were all terrorists but now I can see their point of view- they were unjustly manipulated by other countries (both western and Arab, not just Isreal) and were stripped of their homeland and are a people with no country and no one to count on. As for the Isrealis many of them were persecuted decades ago in World War 2 and I find it ironic that they have become the persecutors to the Palestinians now, I would have thought that they would be last sort of people to do something like that.
 
Mithrae said:
Actually Daniel, Jesus and John all warned that Israel and the Jewish temple would become a centre of false prophets, false messiahs and idolatry to deceive even the elect. Blind devotion to the current State of Israel would be ill-advised from a biblical perspective ;)
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The only one claiming to be messiah right now is Obama (or at least his followers claim it and he doesn't deny it).
 
Hard Truth said:
That type of religion-based argument in favor of Israel is another reason why leftists are skeptical of the American right wing's agenda in the middle east and with Israel in particular. We can not let crucial decisions about Israel and Palestine that may lead to a world war be made based on ancient claims of ownership, "chosen people" and imaginary playmates.
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In the post you reference, I gave seven reasons why U.S. should support Israel essentially unconditionally - you reposted only three and of those three, only one is a religious argument. So, six of the seven are mostly secular reasons to support Israel.

Yes, it seems clear that whatever the bible says will be rejected by liberals. Liberals seem attracted to do the opposite of whatever guidance God offers.

Half the world believes this conflict over Israel will lead to Armageddon. Deny the bible if you will, but you can't deny that Muslim teaches it and Christianity teaches it. Act morally superior, as if you are above "ancient" prophecy? But, the rest of the world believes it and this conflict is imposing itself on your morally-superior selves. Iran is building nukes for the sole stated purpose to exterminate Israel. And whether you liberals run from Israel or not, Iran is coming after you too. Democrat Truman created Israel and Muslims won't forget it. Whether you were even born when Truman made the decision, won't protect you. Your body will burn in Iran's nuclear fire just the same as every other American. Iran hates America. Muslims around the world cheered on 9/11. Not saying all Muslims are enemies, but you better decide what path? Because after the nuclear fires is too late to choose sides.

Regarding "ancient claims of ownership," what deed and title is more valid than the older one? If someone forges a new title to your house, do the courts say, "get out, because this new title grants ownership to this other family?" Or does the older title retain force of law?
 
SayMyName said:
I find that the distain for Israeli leadership, their military, and their policies crosses party lines, and is growing. Only in what can be considered the neo-con circles, and not within the ranks of true conservatives, is support for Israel so entrenched.

I love Israel. I love going there. I was long a supporter of that nation for most of my life, but I changed. I could no longer support a nation whose government operates so outlandishly without any regard for "all" the people within and outside its borders.

I think this latest episode will further segregate Israel from the world community. It has cast its lot as a pariah. As an American, we should withdraw all military and economic aid. It is not becoming of a nation's people that espouses liberty to stand by and soil ourselves in the support of a country that is now acting psychotically.
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Take that Israeli-stamped passport and travel to any Muslim country and then tell us about oppression?

What would we do if Castro fired even one missile at America from Cuba?

Yes, the bible predicts almost everyone will be against Israel in the end. And in fact, Israel stands virtually alone in the world and has for decades. Only the U.S. stands with Israel. We don't stand with Israel because they have resources or because we want to be with the "cool" mob of countries. We stand with Israel, because we created modern Israel, because Israel stands with us, because Israel (the people) are the source of language and science, because Israel's been picked-on and suffered enough and yes, because the bible says to support Israel.

Not sure what "neocon" has to do with support for Israel? Neocon's are not known for reading bibles and anyone who believes the bible must support Israel. Supporting Israel doesn't require a spreading-democracy motivation or U.S. military intervention, both primary elements of neo-conservatism?
 
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JoeTrumps said:
You shouldn’t have to be a Republican in order to support Israel and to agree that the Left has an anti-Israel bias. I believe it's a continuation of the "anti-imperialism" or "anti-colonialism" that made protests against the British in India, apartheid in South Africa or the Vietnam War. It's a form of selective outrage. The actions of the Soviet Union and China never caused the left as much anger as Western colonialism did, and to them Israel's existence is a form of colonialism.
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I think for the same reason we tend to be peacenicks, we don't like bullies and modern Isreal is a bully. So are we, the USA, btw, imo.
 
CalGun said:
I'd be curious to know what those who don't "sympathize" with Israel want for an outcome? Since conservatives tend to realize that means a holocaust like event for the Israelis I think they believe in defending them. I can't speak for liberals, don't know what their mind set is, but I would guess they some how think Palestinians and Israelis are going to sit side by side and sing songs together and blow daisy's in the wind. They seem to have this utopian view of the world that all one has to do is turn everything over to the state and all will be fine - now if they can just get those Muslims to agree - NOT.
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I have often wondered about the same thing. If the Arabs win and wipe out the state of Israel, will all those who are now anti-Israel turn and be against the Arabs for slaughtering the Israelis, or will they just let it happen and wash their hands of the situation? Will it matter to them that Israelis are exterminated in another Holocaust? I suspect not.
 
Diving Mullah said:
To sum up....Here is a country fairly irrelevant if you ask me, no resource of any value, don't particularly like us (if you ever been to Israel most make Israelis think American stupid and lazy. They are siphoning huge amount of money from us
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While Israel does receive the most U.S. aid by a small margin, the next nine countries are Muslim. Those nine Muslim countries receive over $10B from U.S. taxpayers (three-times what Israel receives). I would question why we are giving more to Israel's enemies than to Israel? I would further question why we give a penny to Israel's enemies (who are also our enemies)? Maybe B.H. Obama knows what he's doing giving our enemies so much money, but I'd direct most of the Muslim aid to Israel, unless someone could make a pretty good case that those funds aren't being used counter to U.S. interests?

I believe we benefit more from Israel than they benefit from us. We do send aid, but we also attach strings. Israel is a center for intellectual development. While Israel gives much public credit for Iron Dome, they developed the technology. They develop medicines, science and scholarship. We benefit greatly from the relationship.
 
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Respecthelect said:
Regarding "ancient claims of ownership," what deed and title is more valid than the older one? If someone forges a new title to your house, do the courts say, "get out, because this new title grants ownership to this other family?" Or does the older title retain force of law?
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Political authority extinguishes by the complete destruction of the authority by another.

Presently, both Israel and Gaza have been created as political authorities by the U.N., so both have a right to exist, without prejudice to Israel's right of self-defense.

That said, neither country should have been created in the first place.
 
Respecthelect said:
Take that Israeli-stamped passport and travel to any Muslim country and then tell us about oppression?

What would we do if Castro fired even one missile at America from Cuba?

Yes, the bible predicts almost everyone will be against Israel in the end. And in fact, Israel stands virtually alone in the world and has for decades. Only the U.S. stands with Israel. We don't stand with Israel because they have resources or because we want to be with the "cool" mob of countries. We stand with Israel, because we created modern Israel, because Israel stands with us, because Israel (the people) are the source of language and science, because Israel's been picked-on and suffered enough and yes, because the bible says to support Israel.

Not sure what "neocon" has to do with support for Israel? Neocon's are not known for reading bibles and anyone who believes the bible must support Israel. Supporting Israel doesn't require a spreading-democracy motivation or U.S. military intervention, both primary elements of neo-conservatism?
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Firstly, Israel does not stamp your passport. They give you a little sticker to put in your passport that can then be easily removed once you leave and travel to other countries, thus not causing you problems abroad.

Secondly, when you start talking about the bible, when there are billions of other people on this planet with other beliefs, I really don't know whether to take you seriously or suspect you are not being real and are just spoofing us here on the forum.

Lastly, actually, I just have to leave it at that for now, except to say, I don't believe in the god that you speak of. But, unlike most Americans who say they do, and fervently...I have walked the very steps of Jesus on his ministry from Nazareth to Galilee last year. I slept for seven days on the Mount of Beatitudes and looked over the waters all the way to Jordan. I visited Korsai where he supposedly drove out the demons from the man and into the pigs. The pigs are still there, wild as they are. Neither Jews nor muslims go there for that reason I suspect. It is but a ruin. I swam to the marker that supposedly denotes the place offshore about 400 meters where Jesus supposedly walked on water. He never appeared to me, and the land and the people were no more special than the billions of others on this planet I have met. Besides that, there is trash everywhere, especially along the Jesus Trail and sites of his ministry, as if those you purportedly support take glee in soiling all areas connected to him. It has become a filthy country.

Havng said that, I love Israel. Maybe its the history. Who knows, but I love them no more or less than other people and lands of the world. We need to disengage our nation from this conflict and support neither side except with moral support for peaceful efforts. More peace should equal more aid. I think that would work a lot better.
 
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I think it may have to do with the implicit message that occurred in the recent Gaza millitary campaign. The message seems to be:

"Killing children is alright as long as they are not Hebrew."
 
JoeTrumps said:
You shouldn’t have to be a Republican in order to support Israel and to agree that the Left has an anti-Israel bias. I believe it's a continuation of the "anti-imperialism" or "anti-colonialism" that made protests against the British in India, apartheid in South Africa or the Vietnam War. It's a form of selective outrage. The actions of the Soviet Union and China never caused the left as much anger as Western colonialism did, and to them Israel's existence is a form of colonialism.
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You can support Israel and still be against their occupation of the West Bank and the total dominance over Gaza.

And yes, the "left" as I know it also disagreed with unacceptable behavior from the Soviet Union and China. But as a rule, it is not wrong to hold Western democracies to a higher standard as dictatorial nations. From them you still hate it but should have expected it but such behavior should not be done by much more morally upstanding democracies.
 
24107 said:
Israel is in the final throes of their very public suicide
Which was precipitated by her latest attack on Gaza.

Israel has been chewing on their victims in Gaza and all the nations that surround them for over 66 years: To the point where they have backed themselves into this final corner, from which there will be no escape.
“This is when it’s going to start getting bloody not only for Israel’s enemies, but for Israel itself. They will be despised by most of the world for what they have done to the Palestinians and Muslims will feel they have nothing to lose by using any means necessary to destroy Israel for fear they will be next.

It also appears that America soon will be locked into its own civil war after the next major orchestrated event along with the ensuing collapse of the dollar and will therefore lose their position as Israel’s attack dog against the Arab world. They will be too busy killing each other.

The Zionists continue to try and bring Russia into the conflict by destabilizing the countries around them. But once again, America is going to have its own problems soon and their failed occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan prove that they really have no chance against Russia.

The problem I see that Israel is going to have before long is that they are running out of “allies” to pit against their enemies which is literally everyone else on the planet. They are going to have to face a world that despises them. And they will have to face it alone.
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Tell us how you really feel about Israel and America. Don't hold back your bias, we want to see it in all its glory!
 
SayMyName said:
Firstly, Israel does not stamp your passport. They give you a little sticker to put in your passport that can then be easily removed once you leave and travel to other countries, thus not causing you problems abroad.
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Then leave the sticker in and go to a Muslim country? See how civilized they are? See how "equally" they treat you? How equally they love all "people and lands of the world?"


SayMyName said:
Secondly, when you start talking about the bible, when there are billions of other people on this planet with other beliefs, I really don't know whether to take you seriously or suspect you are not being real and are just spoofing us here on the forum.
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Even Muslims believe in the bible, even though they somehow disconnect the passages where God gives Israel a special place and special consideration. Therefore, the vast majority of the Western (and Middle Eastern) world does believe in the bible. Nevertheless, most of my arguments are non-religious.

You say you walked Jesus path. In this context, one assumes you make a non-religious argument and use the bible as merely historical text. Likewise, I submit that Jesus was an Israelite and lived in Israel long before those Palestinian's were kicked out of Jordan in 1970. Jesus life in the land of Israel is an historical fact, not necessarily a religious argument.

Abandoning Israel won't save you from Muslim wrath. If you seek to run scared from Muslims or in the interest of "fairness," I suggest you move to a devoutly Muslim place, because they intend to nuke us. You will burn in nuclear fire as fast as we will.

If on the other hand, you fear wrath from another source or believe we will ultimately win against the coming war with Muslims, you better choose sides. Hitler ultimately left us with no choice, but we let millions die on the road to choosing. Let's not wait till we're nuked to choose sides this time?
 
It's because a lot of the right wing Americans support Israel not merely out of political and ideological reasons but also because of their religious position, as such the left feels the need to oppose a political position that is identified with the right-wingers in such an absolute manner and oppose Israel.

That being said there needs to be a separation between liberals and the left in general, as liberals tend to take a more pro-Israeli position recognizing Israel is a liberal democracy that defends itself from terrorism and other severe security issues in a region of vile Islamic theocracies that are responsible for the majority of wrong-doings on this planet.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Your inability to prove your contention is astounding.
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I grow weary of teaching history....every time this happens.

In 1948 when the British gave up control of the region the plan was two states. Israel declared independence and the Arab world attacked them. At that point Israel had to fight a war of existence. They won. As for those Arabs (there was no such thing as a Palestinian at the time like what you would say today), who left, some were in fact forced to leave but many more fled as a result of those Arab countries insure them that they would be able to come back when Israel was wiped out. I know it pains you that that didn't happen.

Let's have a thought experiment:

What do you think happens if Israel stops fighting or defending herself today?
What do you think happens is the Palestinians stop fighting today?

Think about it.
 
Why are liberals so hostile? - Because we have to put up with ignorant conservatives all of the time.
 
Sababa said:
I grow weary of teaching history....every time this happens.

In 1948 when the British gave up control of the region the plan was two states. Israel declared independence and the Arab world attacked them. At that point Israel had to fight a war of existence. They won. As for those Arabs (there was no such thing as a Palestinian at the time like what you would say today), who left, some were in fact forced to leave but many more fled as a result of those Arab countries insure them that they would be able to come back when Israel was wiped out. I know it pains you that that didn't happen.

Let's have a thought experiment:

What do you think happens if Israel stops fighting or defending herself today?
What do you think happens is the Palestinians stop fighting today?

Think about it.
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No Palestinians? It was called Palestine before 1948.

We should not rehash ancient history from 1948, that is a passed station.

And no, Israel should not stop defending itself but they should stop occupying in the near future. They need to come to an agreement with the Palestinians in a manner that both are safe and both get the freedom they both deserve.
 
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