Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 47

Thread: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

  1. #11
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,723

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by truthatallcost View Post
    I think most people want what was described in the OP, however I think its naive to think that having one universal language is going to get us there. The reasons for conflict throughout the world are diverse and complex. History tells us that peace & brotherhood is a concept that has rarely if ever existed.

    Why is the United States so fractured and violent, despite our honorable attempts at creating a multicultural society, yet a country like Japan is not? Japan has made no attempt at welcoming outsiders unless its for purposes of business and tourism.

    The 5 safest places to live have one thing in common, they are not multicultural or diverse:
    1Finland - rating: 6.7
    2Qatar - 6.61
    3UAE - 6.6
    4Iceland - 6.5
    5Austria - 6.47
    Mapped: The world's safest (and least safe) countries

    The UK ranks 63rd on the list of safest countries, and the US ranks 73rd, while a country like Saudi Arabia, which still liberally employs capital punishment, has a better safety rating.


    Ok. I'm not saying if we have one universal common language that all the sudden peace will break out everywhere and we'll all join hands kumbaya etc.


    Nah.



    I'm saying that if you want to foster more peace and more brotherhood and so on that everyone being able to communicate in a common tongue is a good, perhaps even essential starting place.



    Frankly I have always been and continue to be highly skeptical that the whole world will ever join as brothers/sisters in peace and blahblahblah. Seems mighty unlikely. However, maybe LESS war and more seeing each other as human beings could be managed... and a common language would help that happen IMO.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  2. #12
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    01-24-17 @ 06:33 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,016

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I don't entirely disagree, but absent the ability to communicate clearly the degree of cooperation that can be achieved is going to be limited.


    I'm not talking so much about the diplomatic level, but the personal level, where people from different cultures try to connect and form fellow feeling... a common language would be a major aid.
    Sure, it would help. I just don't think it's a major requirement.
    If you feel a need to "reinterpret" the Constitution, you must know that what you want to do is unconstitutional.

  3. #13
    Sage
    chromium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    A2
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,488

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Ultimately if you're a GUEST in a foreign land you should not expect others to learn your ways. My college has a requirement to master a 2nd language just to graduate, as is the norm at highly ranked schools. It's kind of grueling, but you also learn to appreciate the culture and the intricacies behind the language

    Language changes, take a linguistic course, or just reference all the dispute over your favorite holy book's original meanings and you'll see...it's not just the original meanings but the translations over time. Someone who lives long enough can witness his own native language change greatly.

    Regional variation is great as well. I mean, do we force everyone to learn *southern* english, or british english or what? Do we force americans to learn "chinese" since it's actually the most spoken language with the fastest growing economy? I bet you would object to this. But again, there's traditional/formal chinese, there's mandarin, wu, yin - all with tens of millions of speakers and quite a lot of difference. So which becomes universal indeed

    Then there is the fact that ethnic groups evolve differently due to climate and such, and then there are speech impediments. It's pretty much impossible for certain people to 'roll the R' or make the click sounds of east africa, and i'd bet it's impossible for some to ever learn to physically make english sounds in a way that's intelligible. And finally, language acquisition is considered a measure of intelligence. If you can't acquire a 2nd language yourself and admit the difficulties, it's utterly unfair to expect everyone else to learn english on your behalf. In fact, english is regarded as one of the more difficult to learn
    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.

  4. #14
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,723

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Sure, it would help. I just don't think it's a major requirement.


    Ok. Hypothetical...


    You're an engineer. Shimoneroni Jebukiuki is also an engineer. You are given the project to build a Moshenator, which will require expertise in both your specialties.

    Shimoneroni Jebukiuki speaks only Northern Mesophilian, which you not only don't speak but have never heard of. Nor does anyone else in the company except one guy and he's on a trip to Bermferked Quijipt for the next six weeks.


    So... how you gonna build that thing?

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  5. #15
    Sage
    chromium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    A2
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,488

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ok. I'm not saying if we have one universal common language that all the sudden peace will break out everywhere and we'll all join hands kumbaya etc.


    Nah.



    I'm saying that if you want to foster more peace and more brotherhood and so on that everyone being able to communicate in a common tongue is a good, perhaps even essential starting place.



    Frankly I have always been and continue to be highly skeptical that the whole world will ever join as brothers/sisters in peace and blahblahblah. Seems mighty unlikely. However, maybe LESS war and more seeing each other as human beings could be managed... and a common language would help that happen IMO.
    There's been civil wars with very similar language, as you know. North and South Korea in particular loath each other. As well, there's been a crazy number of languages spoken within a single country or allied force that managed to band together. Look at world war 2 alliances (german and japanese and italian, english and russian). Geo-political barriers, ideology, and economic interests have more to do with such conflict i suspect.

    Yes, at times 'the other' gets dehumanized to the point of oppression, and language is a huge part of being different. Would we ever build a wall around canada? Mexico, being a foreign language is easier to vilify, but that's only part of it. They also just *look* more different than canadians. But i believe that's about the extent of the damage that can be done, in modern times. No one will risk war due to language barrier. The higher ups have plenty translators also
    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.

  6. #16
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,723

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Ultimately if you're a GUEST in a foreign land you should not expect others to learn your ways. My college has a requirement to master a 2nd language just to graduate, as is the norm at highly ranked schools. It's kind of grueling, but you also learn to appreciate the culture and the intricacies behind the language

    Language changes, take a linguistic course, or just reference all the dispute over your favorite holy book's original meanings and you'll see...it's not just the original meanings but the translations over time. Someone who lives long enough can witness his own native language change greatly.

    Regional variation is great as well. I mean, do we force everyone to learn *southern* english, or british english or what? Do we force americans to learn "chinese" since it's actually the most spoken language with the fastest growing economy? I bet you would object to this. But again, there's traditional/formal chinese, there's mandarin, wu, yin - all with tens of millions of speakers and quite a lot of difference. So which becomes universal indeed

    Then there is the fact that ethnic groups evolve differently due to climate and such, and then there are speech impediments. It's pretty much impossible for certain people to 'roll the R' or make the click sounds of east africa, and i'd bet it's impossible for some to ever learn to physically make english sounds in a way that's intelligible. And finally, language acquisition is considered a measure of intelligence. If you can't acquire a 2nd language yourself and admit the difficulties, it's utterly unfair to expect everyone else to learn english on your behalf. In fact, english is regarded as one of the more difficult to learn


    Ok. You're fine with not being able to communicate with well over half of humanity, then.


    If you speak English and the most common version of Chinese, you can communicate with almost two billion people. Lovely.

    That only leave another five billion who have no idea what you're saying and no good way to communicate vital information to you.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  7. #17
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    01-24-17 @ 06:33 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    25,016

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ok. Hypothetical...


    You're an engineer. Shimoneroni Jebukiuki is also an engineer. You are given the project to build a Moshenator, which will require expertise in both your specialties.

    Shimoneroni Jebukiuki speaks only Northern Mesophilian, which you not only don't speak but have never heard of. Nor does anyone else in the company except one guy and he's on a trip to Bermferked Quijipt for the next six weeks.


    So... how you gonna build that thing?
    That's a situation in which it would help. But engineers have a common language: math.
    If you feel a need to "reinterpret" the Constitution, you must know that what you want to do is unconstitutional.

  8. #18
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,723

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    That's a situation in which it would help. But engineers have a common language: math.


    True, but math as a mode of communication is a very narrow conduit for information.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  9. #19
    Sage
    chromium's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    A2
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:09 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,488

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ok. You're fine with not being able to communicate with well over half of humanity, then.


    If you speak English and the most common version of Chinese, you can communicate with almost two billion people. Lovely.

    That only leave another five billion who have no idea what you're saying and no good way to communicate vital information to you.
    learn C++ and you won't need to learn mandarin

    see, i accept that not everything has to be about what i want, and i'm willing to make some effort to understand others, if need be. That kind of effort is the real sign of brotherhood

    but even if i'm tempted to be selfish, i also accept that, even if he can learn to make english sounds, i will likely never stumble across an east african i need to communicate with. The vast majority of those 5 billion the same can be said. Most communication is nonverbal anyway

    just like i'm not fluent in bird language, nor will that likely be of consequence
    Last edited by chromium; 01-06-17 at 07:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.

  10. #20
    Sage
    truthatallcost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:23 PM
    Gender
    Posts
    8,423

    Re: Do you want Peace and Brotherhood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carjosse View Post
    What is your definition of diverse?
    Well a country like Qatar, where 9 out of 10 people are Sunni Muslim, is not really diverse. Furthermore, consider that Qatar doesn't allow their guest workers to become citizens.
    Even though Qatari law allows naturalization of foreigners, Qatar rarely grants them citizenship even if they have a Qatari mother.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_nationality_law
    I strayed from your question there, but I wanted to add that to our previous discussion.

    I'd consider California to be one example of a truly diverse place. If you ever visit Berkeley, you can find Ethiopian restaurants next to Chinese businesses, that are located in a shopping center that is owned by a middle eastern company.




    Do you consider all Muslims the same?
    No.


    The UK is ~85% British, that makes the Gulf states substantially more diverse.
    Crime isn't punished in the UK the same way it is in the gulf states, meaning that individuals with criminal intentions are free to offend several times, whereas a criminal in one of the gulf states isn't going to have that luxury.

    Diversity aside the UK also still has much lower crime rates than the US.
    Yes, that is why the UK ranks 63rd while the US ranks 73rd.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •