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Syria isn't about human rights: Foreign policies lies.

Fishking

Fishking

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I've said this many times. The actions we've taken in Syria has absolutely nothing to do with human rights, or with an oppressive governmental regime in Assad. We have allies that are also oppressive and we openly flaunt violations of human rights by selling arms to Saudi Arabia to conduct their war crimes and egregious human rights violations in Yemen. Syria is a proxi-war, period, and people are suffering over it. Will we see non-stop coverage of the situation in Yemen? No, the media hasn't been given that narrative to propagate from the government. I love my country but I hate our foreign policy.

 
May be Trump has the trump card.
 
Fishking said:
I've said this many times. The actions we've taken in Syria has absolutely nothing to do with human rights, or with an oppressive governmental regime in Assad. We have allies that are also oppressive and we openly flaunt violations of human rights by selling arms to Saudi Arabia to conduct their war crimes and egregious human rights violations in Yemen. Syria is a proxi-war, period, and people are suffering over it. Will we see non-stop coverage of the situation in Yemen? No, the media hasn't been given that narrative to propagate from the government. I love my country but I hate our foreign policy.

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I think that you are half right and half wrong. The human rights thing would be extremely important in trying to shore up UN legitimacy. That was what the 2005/r2p norm change was all about. It is just that foreign affairs are not usually one-dimensional and system stability has some weight in decision making is a factor. It would become less one, if international security of individuals were robustly guaranteed by the UN and international security were not effectively left to the individual nations with the US the only state order with the global reach to be at all interested in human rights.
 
joG said:
I think that you are half right and half wrong. The human rights thing would be extremely important in trying to shore up UN legitimacy. That was what the 2005/r2p norm change was all about. It is just that foreign affairs are not usually one-dimensional and system stability has some weight in decision making is a factor. It would become less one, if international security of individuals were robustly guaranteed by the UN and international security were not effectively left to the individual nations with the US the only state order with the global reach to be at all interested in human rights.
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Then why are we not trying to mediate in Yemen? Why do we keep selling Saudi Arabia arms? You're right that the human rights thing is important in shoring up UN legitimacy but that's all it is, an excuse for us to carry out a proxi-war against Russia. We are in the middle of another Cold War for absolutely no reason.
 
Fishking said:
Then why are we not trying to mediate in Yemen? Why do we keep selling Saudi Arabia arms? You're right that the human rights thing is important in shoring up UN legitimacy but that's all it is, an excuse for us to carry out a proxi-war against Russia. We are in the middle of another Cold War for absolutely no reason.
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The US is not able to mediate in every war. There are too many and we are not necessarily credible in that role. Here is an article that is maybe not quite the last word on this but okay: Yemen Needs Peace, But the U.S. Isn’t a Credible Mediator | The American Conservative

Also, we have been doing a poor job in general. Obama seems to lack perspective and vision in FP and this is telling badly in many areas.

As for the "proxi-war" against Russia, you have you chronology wrong.

And the "Cold War" is not something the US chose but was been develop in Moscow and is known as the Gerassimow Doctrin. It has since been implemented in the form of non linear-, special- and hybrid warfare. Without wanting to get into what foreign policy and military analysts think are the Russian motivation, it is quite clearly driven from Moscow.

Also it should be noted that this round of conflict might seen Cold War, but it is not at all the same in major determinants. To believe it resembles the Cold War is to miss the cause and basis on which the situation can be analysed.
 
Fishking said:
I've said this many times. The actions we've taken in Syria has absolutely nothing to do with human rights, or with an oppressive governmental regime in Assad. We have allies that are also oppressive and we openly flaunt violations of human rights by selling arms to Saudi Arabia to conduct their war crimes and egregious human rights violations in Yemen. Syria is a proxi-war, period, and people are suffering over it. Will we see non-stop coverage of the situation in Yemen? No, the media hasn't been given that narrative to propagate from the government. I love my country but I hate our foreign policy.
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You are wrong to think that the Syrian war has been started by the USA or can be simply ended by them, or that Assad can be a viable solution.

Syria is an ethnic conflict between Sunnis (80%) and the rest (Assad, Shias, Kurds, etc) and it has seen ethnic cleanses in the past years. Simply cutting the funds to the Sunni groups backed by Washington would not solve the problem because Assad cannot pacify the country and stabilize it. The political long-term solution, if any, is not obvious, and will require a compromise between most of the parties in this war (Al Nosra, Assad, ISIS, Turkey, PKK, Saudi Arabia, Iran, USA, Russia, ...). And maybe a territorial split.
 
Of course it isn't. It never is.


We ignored the mass extermination of Jews until the ally of the monster bombed us.

We ignored the mass extermination/starvation/subjugation of the Russians until Stalin showed is true colors after that war was over.

We ignored all sorts of things, more recently, the genocide in Darfur.



OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
 
The military industrial complex has the agenda of the complete domination of the middle east. It is not about anything except the imperialistic goal to rule the world. I hope you all are willing to die for that goal because they are sure as hell willing to sacrifice you for it.
 
Fishking said:
I've said this many times. The actions we've taken in Syria has absolutely nothing to do with human rights, or with an oppressive governmental regime in Assad. We have allies that are also oppressive and we openly flaunt violations of human rights by selling arms to Saudi Arabia to conduct their war crimes and egregious human rights violations in Yemen. Syria is a proxi-war, period, and people are suffering over it. Will we see non-stop coverage of the situation in Yemen? No, the media hasn't been given that narrative to propagate from the government. I love my country but I hate our foreign policy.

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1 major reason is pipelines- gas from Saudi Qatar etc- or from Iran to feed the EU markets.
 
Mr Person said:
Of course it isn't. It never is.


We ignored the mass extermination of Jews until the ally of the monster bombed us.

We ignored the mass extermination/starvation/subjugation of the Russians until Stalin showed is true colors after that war was over.

We ignored all sorts of things, more recently, the genocide in Darfur.



OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
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"Human rights" arose as a cause of war after the "Domino Theory" capped out
 
Fishking said:
Then why are we not trying to mediate in Yemen?
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Mediate? Why don't we just get Israel to mediate. The Houthis hate them less. (Line 2 of the Houthi flag: "Death to America." Line 3: "Death to Israel.")

Houthi flag.jpg
 
Ahlevah said:
Mediate? Why don't we just get Israel to mediate. The Houthis hate them less. (Line 2 of the Houthi flag: "Death to America." Line 3: "Death to Israel.")

View attachment 67208636
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To be fair, Jew (not Israel) takes the #4 line as well with a "Curse upon the Jews". So does a 3rd and 4 beat a 2nd place?
 
Mr Person said:
Of course it isn't. It never is.


We ignored the mass extermination of Jews until the ally of the monster bombed us.

We ignored the mass extermination/starvation/subjugation of the Russians until Stalin showed is true colors after that war was over.

We ignored all sorts of things, more recently, the genocide in Darfur.



OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
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And when we finally intervene you whine about that.
 
Mr Person said:
Of course it isn't. It never is.

We ignored the mass extermination of Jews until the ally of the monster bombed us.

We ignored the mass extermination/starvation/subjugation of the Russians until Stalin showed is true colors after that war was over.

We ignored all sorts of things, more recently, the genocide in Darfur

OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
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coldjoint said:
And when we finally intervene you whine about that.
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What?

That doesn't seem responsive at all.
 
Fishking said:
To be fair, Jew (not Israel) takes the #4 line as well with a "Curse upon the Jews". So does a 3rd and 4 beat a 2nd place?
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Why don't we just agree that, since they're in bed with the Iranians and view us as an enemy (like Israel and the Jews), having us act as a mediator is a nonstarter.
 
Mr Person said:
OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
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Get your facts straight. The U.S. has provided BILLIONS of dollars in humanitarian aid for Syria(ns):

This new funding brings the total U.S. contribution to assist those affected by the conflict in Syria since its start in 2011 to nearly $3.7 billion. The funding will support the activities of both international and non-governmental organizations, including United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), the UN World Food Program (WFP), and the UN Children's Fund (UNICEF). It will provide food, water, medical care, shelter, protection, and other necessities to millions of civilians suffering inside Syria and nearly 4 million refugees from Syria in the region. It will also provide assistance to host governments and communities throughout the region that are struggling to cope with the strain of supporting them. The announcement comes after the United States provided more than $1.5 billion to those affected by the conflict in fiscal year 2014, the largest amount of assistance the United States has ever provided to a single crisis in one year.

https://damascus.usembassy.gov/statedept040615en3.html
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That was more than a year ago. I'm sure the $3.7 billion figure is higher today.
 
Mr Person said:
Of course it isn't. It never is.

We ignored the mass extermination of Jews until the ally of the monster bombed us.

We ignored the mass extermination/starvation/subjugation of the Russians until Stalin showed is true colors after that war was over.

We ignored all sorts of things, more recently, the genocide in Darfur.

OF COURSE it's not about human rights. It never has been.
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Ahlevah said:
Get your facts straight. The U.S. has provided BILLIONS of dollars in humanitarian aid for Syria(ns)
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2015 budget: $3,900,000,000,000.

How much of that was used for "human rights" in Syria?

Did it work? I keep seeing these articles and photos about piles of dead civilians. So much for dollar bills.






Get my facts straight.....

:clap:
 
Ahlevah said:
Get your facts straight. The U.S. has provided BILLIONS of dollars in humanitarian aid for Syria(ns):

That was more than a year ago. I'm sure the $3.7 billion figure is higher today.
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Yes, that's the cover being used.
 
Fishking said:
I've said this many times. The actions we've taken in Syria has absolutely nothing to do with human rights, or with an oppressive governmental regime in Assad.
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Correct. So far all of our actions have been self defense against the aggression of Islamic State.

However if Hillary is elected we will probably start taking action to protect the Syrian people.


Fishking said:
We have allies that are also oppressive
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Also? We have some oppressive allies, but where does the "also" come from?

At any rate what do you want, the US to go around invading and toppling oppressive governments, or the US to respect international sovereignty?

If the preference is that we respect international sovereignty instead of invading and toppling governments, then no fair complaining when we have positive relations with unpleasant governments.

If the preference is that we topple oppressive governments, then no fair complaining when we go around invading other countries.


Fishking said:
and we openly flaunt violations of human rights by selling arms to Saudi Arabia to conduct their war crimes and egregious human rights violations in Yemen.
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What war crimes and human rights violations are these?


Fishking said:
Then why are we not trying to mediate in Yemen?
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Is there anything to mediate?


Fishking said:
Why do we keep selling Saudi Arabia arms?
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Because they are our ally.


Fishking said:
You're right that the human rights thing is important in shoring up UN legitimacy but that's all it is, an excuse for us to carry out a proxi-war against Russia.
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If Hillary is elected and acts to stop Russia's genocide against the Syrian people, America's opposition to that genocide will be genuine. It will not be an excuse.


Fishking said:
We are in the middle of another Cold War for absolutely no reason.
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The need to oppose Russian aggression is a very good reason.
 
Fishking said:
You're right that the human rights thing is important in shoring up UN legitimacy but that's all it is, an excuse for us to carry out a proxi-war against Russia. We are in the middle of another Cold War for absolutely no reason.
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Governments, including Western ones, don't give a toss about the human rights abuses of other countries unless declaring them unacceptable also ties in with their geopolitical interests. The fact that we keep selling arms to, and buying oil from, the gay hanging, child beheading, woman suppressing kingdom Saudi Arabia shows this to be the case.

Even Saddam's was allowed to buy the ingredients opfor biological weapons from us, and use them, when he was considered useful. As soon as his usefulness ended so did the ignoring of his human rights abuses.

"Protecting human rights," is a wonderful justification to hide behind when you're wanting to bomb this year's Hitler.
 
Baltim said:
Governments, including Western ones, don't give a toss about the human rights abuses of other countries unless declaring them unacceptable also ties in with their geopolitical interests. The fact that we keep selling arms to, and buying oil from, the gay hanging, child beheading, woman suppressing kingdom Saudi Arabia shows this to be the case.

Even Saddam's was allowed to buy the ingredients opfor biological weapons from us, and use them, when he was considered useful. As soon as his usefulness ended so did the ignoring of his human rights abuses.

"Protecting human rights," is a wonderful justification to hide behind when you're wanting to bomb this year's Hitler.
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Correct. And most people are unaware because they do not inform themselves from different sources than the MSMs, which basically only covers what the state wants them to.
 
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