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What are the reasons for poor relations with Russia?

That's 3 posts of no value. I stipulated that I would laugh off anyone who posted "cuz Russia" in my OP because it's intellectually worthless. Notice how my responses to other posters was on the topic and no issues. Consider this a quality control check.

You are the one that need "quality control". You have ZERO manners, nor do you have the intelligence to admit your mistakes.

YOU give no respect, yet you demand others give it to you.

That is "living in a cave" mentality.

Congratulations! You are my latest entry into the "perfect people" list. Those that feel they never make mistakes, and feel they do not need to apologize for them, because they are too perfect to ever make any. So therefore there is no need to apologize for what they never do.

The list grows longer the more I am on DP.

The good thing is, though, I also have a list of real humans who actually have admitted they made a mistake, and actually apologized. That list is shorter, but it gives me hope.

No need to send anymore posts to me, I will not reply to you anymore. I have learned long ago to not talk to people that laugh in my face and think it is appropriate to do so.....like you do.
 
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Did you hear that, Glen...he says Turkey is worse that Russia. That comment alone tells me, he has not been anywhere and knows nothing of the real world. Only what he reads in the New York Times, or sees on MSNBC.

So you're saying that Turkey is better than Russia? Turkey who has been buying ISIS oil? Turkey who has been radicalizing? Turkey who was supporting ISIS in other ways, and when they got caught doing they decide to join in the fight in Syria by bombing the Kurds?

Russia, at least, is against Islamic extremism. Turkey most definitely is not.

In what ways is Turkey better than Russia. Do you have an actual case or will it be a continuation of zero value added?

P.S. I don't watch MSNBC or read the NYT. I'm a conservative, a true conservative. See George Washington's farewell address for some words of wisdom. We supported the Taliban to fight against Russia only to have to fight the Taliban because they then used their training an support to take over Afghanistan and turn it into an friendly place for extremists. We supported Saddam only to have to fight him in the 90s and then again in 2003 (though we could have done without either). Now were are dealing with the ramifications of a failed state in Libya and Syria is hanging by a thread.
 
Putin is a dick; wants to recreate the Soviet Union, only with himself as godfather instead of premier

both countries want to bang their dicks together until sparks fly over who is the coolest superpower

pissing matches over oil

sanctions / other financial nonsense

Europe wants Ukraine, but doesn't want to do anything about it because Russian natural gas, which means that the US has to meddle in the region

fifty years of a useless, dangerous cold war

and last but not least........

View attachment 67205740

my opinion (cue drumroll) :

we should stay the **** out of it and repair / expand infrastructure here at home.

can I get an AHMEN from the congregation on this please.....
 
Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.

Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?

RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.

Well said, Glen.

Yeah, we butt heads from time-to-time, but you have not once "laughed in my face", then wondered why no respect was given to the laugher. Having NO CLUE as to how respect is earned and seeing nothing wrong with that action. It is more than Russia this guy has NO CLUE about. MANNERS is another one.

You also remind me of a buddy, Otis. A liberal from Massachusetts. We did not much agree on anything except math, blueberry fig newtons, and hunting Russian subs. We were a deadly combo when we were both on the Sonar stack. He handled the sonobouy patterns and talked to the birds while I operated the tail. Nothing got away from us.
 
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So you're saying that Turkey is better than Russia? Turkey who has been buying ISIS oil? Turkey who has been radicalizing? Turkey who was supporting ISIS in other ways, and when they got caught doing they decide to join in the fight in Syria by bombing the Kurds?

Russia, at least, is against Islamic extremism. Turkey most definitely is not.

In what ways is Turkey better than Russia. Do you have an actual case or will it be a continuation of zero value added?

P.S. I don't watch MSNBC or read the NYT. I'm a conservative, a true conservative. See George Washington's farewell address for some words of wisdom. We supported the Taliban to fight against Russia only to have to fight the Taliban because they then used their training an support to take over Afghanistan and turn it into an friendly place for extremists. We supported Saddam only to have to fight him in the 90s and then again in 2003 (though we could have done without either). Now were are dealing with the ramifications of a failed state in Libya and Syria is hanging by a thread.

I do not believe for one minute you are conservative. Every conservative I know is NOT ASHAMED to admit it. You are.

UNDISCLOSED tells me you are sitting on the fence, or are just plain ashamed to say what your leanings are.

DP has quite a lot of options to choose from for your leaning, yet you choose to hide your true feelings.

That is why I cannot believe you.
 
I do not believe for one minute you are conservative. Every conservative I know is NOT ASHAMED to admit it. You are.

UNDISCLOSED tells me you are sitting on the fence, or are just plain ashamed to say what your leanings are.

DP has quite a lot of options to choose from for your leaning, yet you choose to hide your true feelings.

That is why I cannot believe you.

Whatever floats your boat...I mean, ship. Why did you use the quote function when you weren't intending, for 7 or 8 posts or so posts now, to post anything to contribute. You can check my posting history and about the only thing that wouldn't come up as "conservative" (quotes are used because the actual conservative policy isn't this) are my foreign policy positions regarding interventionism.

It hasn't worked for us and it's come back to bite us in the ass many times. Again, I stipulated that I was going to laugh at anyone who posted "cuz Russia" because it's dumb. You were the only winner of that chicken dinner. Everyone else contributed something, even if it was small.
 
Whatever floats your boat...I mean, ship. Why did you use the quote function when you weren't intending, for 7 or 8 posts or so posts now, to post anything to contribute. You can check my posting history and about the only thing that wouldn't come up as "conservative" (quotes are used because the actual conservative policy isn't this) are my foreign policy positions regarding interventionism.

It hasn't worked for us and it's come back to bite us in the ass many times. Again, I stipulated that I was going to laugh at anyone who posted "cuz Russia" because it's dumb. You were the only winner of that chicken dinner. Everyone else contributed something, even if it was small.

:coffeepap
 
Should, should, should, but don't and the alliances an friendships remain. And, despite where you started out, you still have more in common with Russia than you do with Saudi Arabia or Turkey. Are women property in Russia that have to wear Niqabs and aren't allowed to drive? No? I didn't think so.


You make assumptions about me yet you don't know anything about me.

I have more in common with Turkish women than I do with Russian women.

Liberated Turkish women in the cities have more in common with me than the gold-digging peroxide blonde Russian bimbettes. Rural Turkish women can suffer badly, as can rural Russian women. Many Russian women are trafficked, bought and sold as sex slaves, seen as property. Turkish feminists are FAR ahead of Russian women.

I will not defend the atrocious position of Saudi women. I have already said we should cut ties with Saudi Arabia, so your point is a non starter.
 
 
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I don't believe for one second that you're a conservative, if you're foolish enough to get sucked into a new Cold War just to keep NATO alive.
 
I compare him to the ones that have attacked Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. He's head and shoulders on high ground by comparison. Sane, reasonable and pragmatic and I didn't stutter..

Would you say that russia 'hates' america because they see them as the rulers, and, against their policies? i think that is what it comes down to, as, the russians have a more conservative bend, and, are having people snooping on them. naturally conservative secretive people will recede into the shadows, and arm themselves to combat this snooping, having it understood as a aggressive maneuver and then getting more snooped on, then recede more, and so forth.

I think hte way forwards is for either russia to get more open - they have nothing to fear - or for america to 'be nice' to them. typically, with conservative types, they do not ant to change to be more like america, while others are changing, fearing change you could say.
 
Would you say that russia 'hates' america because they see them as the rulers, and, against their policies? i think that is what it comes down to, as, the russians have a more conservative bend, and, are having people snooping on them. naturally conservative secretive people will recede into the shadows, and arm themselves to combat this snooping, having it understood as a aggressive maneuver and then getting more snooped on, then recede more, and so forth.

I think hte way forwards is for either russia to get more open - they have nothing to fear - or for america to 'be nice' to them. typically, with conservative types, they do not ant to change to be more like america, while others are changing, fearing change you could say.

No. It would be the attempt by the USA/NATO block to bankrupt Russia that has created the animosity. Sanctions. Pipeline interference. Trade issues. The IMF. etc. The economic sanctions the USA used against Russia are usually an act of war. Fortunately, Putin is pragmatic and sees a long term vision.
 
It's not propaganda, it's fact.
Obviously it is not. Russia and all UN nations recognize the Poroshenko government as the legitimate government of Ukraine.

Russian-embassy-Kiev-staff-detained.jpg

Embassy of the Russian Federation in Kyiv, Ukraine


d6015242d96b7c23f8dadec053939ecd1402855489.jpg

Embassy of Ukraine in Moscow, Russia
 
Simpleχity;1066203211 said:
Obviously it is not. Russia and all UN nations recognize the Poroshenko government as the legitimate government of Ukraine.

That means nothing but geopolitical gamesmanship. Did Ukraine take any legal step to get rid of their President and then, having had success in deposing of him legally, did he refuse to step down? Yes or No?
 


Yet people still believe in the narrative that Russia is the aggressor, despite all the facts. It's like the U.S. can do whatever they want, and it's justified, and as soon as someone pushes back, they are warmonger-dictatorial instigators.
 
That means nothing but geopolitical gamesmanship. Did Ukraine take any legal step to get rid of their President and then, having had success in deposing of him legally, did he refuse to step down? Yes or No?

What happened in ukraine was a secession from ukraine and merger with russia. this was because the people of ukraine all spoke russian and had russian ancestry in that city or state or whatever. this is like the most northern city in mexico city breaking away from mexico and joining with america, maybe texas or california or so.

This is cultural and political. if the people in the region share a lot in common with the other country, due to people on the border going into that country and people from that country coming to them, be it for market related things or even holidays or schooling, then they share a lot with them. obviously if the cities are near together, there will be mixing, and a new culture will emerge, a mix of the two, in each city.

What happened was the region wanted to be a part of russia. the reason for them to join was familiarity and economic, with their taxes now being collected by russia instead of ukraine - this is why ukraine fought back! it has nothing to do with who is the good or bad guys, it has nothing to do with being wrong and righting them, this was merely a change of borders and rulers, and, as i said, taxation beneficiaries.
 
No, it's not as if every former Soviet satellite state and all the Baltic states have real reasons to fear Russian domination. It's all just an imperialist AmeriKKKan conspiracy to sell weapons platforms.


capitalist fascist pigs attemtping to undermine motherland

nevar forget 22 june 1941

may 2 1945 best day of my life
 
That means nothing but geopolitical gamesmanship. Did Ukraine take any legal step to get rid of their President and then, having had success in deposing of him legally, did he refuse to step down? Yes or No?
Was Yanukovych’s Removal Constitutional?

The Rada (parliament) did not follow, or claim to follow, the impeachment route. They passed a resolution that established that Yanukovych had removed himself from fulfilling his constitutional duties. The resolution stated that due to the fact that Yanukovych had unconstitutionally stopped fulfilling his presidential duties, the Rada was calling early presidential elections as is their right under Article 85/7. It seems that nothing in the constitution prohibits parliament from passing such a resolution, which has the full legal force of a law, according to Article 91. The speaker of the Rada signed the resolution, again in accordance with the constitution (Article 88/3).


Results of the early Presidential election of 25 May 2014...

Kandydaty-prez-lidery-2014.jpg



Viktor Yanukovych has never attempted to return to Ukraine from Russia where he fled in February of 2014 to avoid prosecution.

Every nation in the world recognizes the current Ukrainian government as the legal and legitimate government of Ukraine.
 
Getting back to the thread topic, the reasons for poor relations with Russia are legion. Putin's government is growing ever more authoritarian, Moscow's aggressive foreign policies, Moscow's aggressive military policies regarding neighboring nations, Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea, Russia's careless disregard for air safety (turning transponders off), the downing of MH17, the murder of Russian activists and journalists, Russian nuclear saber-rattling, Russian state hacking...

The list goes on and on.
 
The overthrow of the Ukrainian government was illegitimate and was interfered with by western powers.
How does that legitimize forcible annexation of Ukrainian territory? At no point did Russia intervene in Ukraine to thwart a coup.

And Saudi Arabia is one of the biggest exporters of terrorism and pretty much set the standard for illiberalism yet somehow we are buddies with them.
Hence the "significant challenge" part. I dislike Saudi Arabia's regime and believe that we may have to reckon with it at some point, but as of now it is not a great power or a potential superpower. Russia is.


Well, look at what we do after we ramp up the Russia is scary rhetoric. We do weapons contracts. If it's not that, then I don't know of really many other reasons to be so angsty with them.
How would us ramping up the rhetoric cause other countries to buy weapons from us? Do you think it's possible that those countries are rationally concerned about Russian expansionism?


Since the democratically elected President of Ukraine was illegally overthrown by western backed neo-nazis I fail to see where voluntary comes into play.
Since the events in Ukraine didn't directly concern NATO membership I fail to see where Ukraine comes into play.

capitalist fascist pigs attemtping to undermine motherland

nevar forget 22 june 1941

may 2 1945 best day of my life

apology for poor english

when were you when ussr dies

i was at home drinking vodka when boris rang

"ussr is kill"

"no"
 
Simpleχity;1066212566 said:
Russian nuclear saber-rattling

To be fair, Russian nuclear saber-rattling is a direct response to NATO's military capabilities. Russia learned in the Zapad 2009 exercise they were incapable of repelling conventional NATO forces in a straight up fight. In a protracted conventional war Russia is doomed to lose against NATO due to it's significantly smaller economy and manpower base. Nuclear deterrent is realistically the only thing keeping the balance of power between the two factions even.
 
How does that legitimize forcible annexation of Ukrainian territory? At no point did Russia intervene in Ukraine to thwart a coup.

Crimea isn't historically Ukrainian, it's Russian. Nextly, that coup was clearly aimed at Russia - not at the Ukrainian people or improving their lives. The guys who seized power immediately outlawed the Russian language - effectively disenfranchising the Eastern half of the country.

If the US were to wake up one morning and find Mexico or Canada had suffered a coup, and was suddenly actively seeking membership in the Warsaw Pact, I can guarantee that the coup govt there wouldn't last a week. Those guys would be out on their ear very quickly, whether by covert action or by over US military invasion.


Hence the "significant challenge" part. I dislike Saudi Arabia's regime and believe that we may have to reckon with it at some point, but as of now it is not a great power or a potential superpower. Russia is.

Nonsense - Russia is NOT the USSR - it is no longer cultivating or exporting Communist totalitarianism around the world. Russia, like any other state, does have some basic legitimate national interests, though - and it would be foolishly myopic not to recognize that. Bringing NATO right upto Russia's borders would be a ridiculous provocation.

Communism is dead - the only totalitarian belief system actively spreading itself around the world is Islamism.That's why ISIS is still spreading strongly, and its violent terror attacks escalating, even while the AlQaeda hydra head has been eclipsed. Taliban are strongly on the comeback in Afghanistan, and once they fully take over, AlQaeda will be back in business as its international partner.

Chinese mercantilist expansionism is also a growing threat. Huntington famously predicted that China and Islam would eventually pair up to bring down the West, because he saw the greater demographic and economic trends lay inexorably in their favor. We can now see the Chinese are working hard to break through the flimsy local barriers that have previously contained them in East Asia.


How would us ramping up the rhetoric cause other countries to buy weapons from us? Do you think it's possible that those countries are rationally concerned about Russian expansionism?

NATO has become a gravy train. There's a need for NATO partners to pick up more of the burden. America is becoming a hollowed-out empire, sending too many resources to the NATO frontier while the American homeland core rots out from the inside out.


Since the events in Ukraine didn't directly concern NATO membership I fail to see where Ukraine comes into play.

Sure the new Ukrainian govt wants to join NATO - that's glaringly obvious. And their Amen corner in the US keeps claiming that NATO gravy train would help to rehabilitate Ukraine. Well, America itself has a greater need for rehabilitation than any interest in Ukraine. Let them rehabilitate themselves, along with Georgia - instead of thinking they can ass-kiss their way to prosperity. That govt have no economic plan, other than hoping the Cold War lobby will pay their bills for them.

Little did Woodrow Wilson know of the great gravy train political web of intrigue that would result from his creation of the Federal Reserve -- the great "Plastic Economy". It only fostered 2 great lobbies: the military-industrial lobby and the welfare state lobby. Now, across the many decades, these 2 great lobbies are inevitably consolidating into one -- thanks to Bill&Hillary "I Sell Out to Everybody" Clinton.

The Clintons have consolidated the mantra of "The Russians Are Coming!" with the mantra of "Tax and Welfare-Spend"

2 great tastes in one!

 
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Crimea isn't historically Ukrainian, it's Russian.
Wrong.

If Crimea belongs to any ethnic group, that group would be the Turkic Crimean Tatar people. Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of Crimea's population from the time of its ethnogenesis until mid-19th century, and the relative largest ethnic population until the end of 19th century. In May of 1944, the Tatar people were deported from Crimea by Stalin in a massive ethnic cleansing operation (called the Sürgün in the Crimean Tatar language). Stalin replaced the deported Tatars with ethnic Russians. The Tatars were not allowed to return to Crimea from exile until the beginning of the Perestroika period in the mid-1980s. The Tatars began to return en-masse after Ukraine gained independence in 1991. The Tatar people oppose Putin's illegal annexation of Crimea and are once again suffering persecution under Russian occupation.



Moscow transferred the Crimean Region from the RSFSR to the Ukrainian SSR (USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium - February/April 1954) and it has remained a sovereign part of Ukraine for 62 years. At the dissolution of the USSR in 1991, Crimea remained Ukrainian territory under dissolution agreements...

- Declaration № 142-Н of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union (1991)
- Belavezha Accords (Creation Agreement) (1991)
- Alma-Ata Protocol (1991)
- Joint Russo-Ukrainian Black Sea Fleet Agreement (1992)



Russia agreed to pay Ukraine an annual fee ($10 million USD until 2047) for leasing the Crimea Black Sea Fleet facilities from Ukraine under mutual agreements...

- The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet (1997)
- Russian-Ukrainian Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership (1997) (Article 2 - Reaffirmed “the inviolability of the existing borders”)
- Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine (Kharkiv Pact - 2010)

Ergo, from 1997 to 2014, Russia's Black Sea Fleet was paying rent to Ukraine, the legal and sovereign owner of Crimea.

One does not pay rent to someone else for property if they already own the property.
 
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