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What are the reasons for poor relations with Russia?

Urethra Franklin said:
Amen. Add grossly homophobic, and increasingly suppressing independent media.
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So do we kick Erdogan's Turkey out of our NATO alliance? Do we end our special relationship with Saudi Arabia? Please, the condemnation falls flat. We have more in common with Russia than many of the nations we have relations with.
 
MadLib said:
"Reasonable" or "unreasonable" don't really apply here. They have made it their policy in recent years to smother the self-determination and independence of former Soviet states and to support the anti-American and authoritarian Assad regime. I consider those good enough reasons for us to oppose them.
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Could you give an example of this happening?

Neither of these are actually relevant to whether or not Russia should be opposed.
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So why should they be opposed and what is the justification for doing so?

"We" don't need to do that. Russia's already a sufficient boogieman on its own. There's a reason why all the former Warsaw Pact satellite states joined NATO when Moscow no longer had the ability to send tanks to stop them. Russia essentially claims the right to intervene in any state with a Russian minority - a terrifying prospect if you're Estonia, and a current reality if you're Ukraine, Moldova, or Georgia. We already have a sizable potential market of countries to whom Russian domination poses an existential threat.
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Better be keeping up on your reaction to nuclear weapons attack drills and have your bunker ready. Also make sure your tin-foil hat is secured and you have spares.

Causality-wise, I would agree, since the Russians certainly don't like the fact that we've been pushing NATO closer to their border. I don't think, however, our actions with respect to Russia have been unjustifiably aggressive or hostile.
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Of course you don't. And I bet that you think the Cuban Missile Crisis was the fault of Russia as well.

This was a gentleman's agreement made with Gorbachev, so it certainly had no legal obligation upon NATO after the Soviet Union collapsed. Moreover, the only reason it was agreed to in the first place was because Gorbachev had the ability to roll tanks into East Berlin and prevent German reunification if he chose to do so. Therefore, it has no legal or moral force and should play no role in our foreign policy decisions except as evidence for the already obvious fact that Russia opposes NATO's expansion.
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Of course it has moral force because starting up the Cold War again is stupid. That infantile, "mine is bigger than yours", mentality is what gave us the Korean and Vietnam Wars. It's what funded and trained the Taliban and Bin Laden, which then set Afghanistan back to bronze aged mentality.


Putin is pretty clearly a realist; I doubt he cares one way or another about American hypocrisy or "anti-Slavism."
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Yeah, because Putin is just going to sit around do nothing while others actively work to the detriment of his country. That totally makes sense.
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
You say..." poor relations with Russia" like it is a bad thing.
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Well, I'll file this under the "because Russia" and now I will laugh in your face.
 
MadLib said:
Causality-wise, I would agree, since the Russians certainly don't like the fact that we've been pushing NATO closer to their border. I don't think, however, our actions with respect to Russia have been unjustifiably aggressive or hostile.

This was a gentleman's agreement made with Gorbachev, so it certainly had no legal obligation upon NATO after the Soviet Union collapsed. Moreover, the only reason it was agreed to in the first place was because Gorbachev had the ability to roll tanks into East Berlin and prevent German reunification if he chose to do so. Therefore, it has no legal or moral force and should play no role in our foreign policy decisions except as evidence for the already obvious fact that Russia opposes NATO's expansion.


Putin is pretty clearly a realist; I doubt he cares one way or another about American hypocrisy or "anti-Slavism."
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Oh, you and I are in agreement, I was merely stating things from the Russian perspective.

The fact is that it should be no surprise to anyone, especially Russia, that the smaller, weaker states of central and eastern Europe, many of which have been historically oppressed or bullied by larger nations, have sought the safety of NATO. The Baltic, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Polish admissions to NATO are wholly expected given the circumstances. As typical however, Russia had preferred to merely remind everyone of the suffering inflicted on them by invading foreign powers while convienantly forgetting all the misery and oppression the Russian state itself had exported across all of Eastern Europe.
 
Fishking said:
Well, I'll file this under the "because Russia" and now I will laugh in your face.
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sensitive aren't we?

hmmm....someone thinks differently than you do, so therefore they deserve to have their face laughed in.

I wish I had all the answers to everything, like you THINK you do.

and feel all superior enough to laugh in all of their faces.

unfortunately for me, I am not that way and have learned to RESPECT the opinions of others who do not take my view. Even though I THINK they are wrong, or even if I KNOW they are wrong, I still keep my civility about me in the course of the discussion.

You see, unlike your type, I have the ability to acknowledge the fact I can actually be wrong from time-to-time.

Your type are frequently wrong, but they just never acknowledge it, and laugh superiorly in everyone's face who has a different point of view.

I would not trade places with you for all the money in the world. I like being human and having manners.
 
Fishking said:
It's like you're looking at a singular chess move while ignoring the 20 moves that were taken up to that point.
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I beg to differ.

There are extensive threads right here in this Europe sub-forum that demonstrate/explain why US/European relations with Russia are far less than optimal.

The future of Ukraine (162 pages)

Ukraine (41 pages)

Crimea (24 pages)

Russia - Putin (100 pages)
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
sensitive aren't we?

hmmm....someone thinks differently than you do, so therefore they deserve to have their face laughed in.

I wish I had all the answers to everything, like you THINK you do.

and feel all superior enough to laugh in all of their faces.

unfortunately for me, I am not that way and have learned to RESPECT the opinions of others who do not take my view. Even though I THINK they are wrong, or even if I KNOW they are wrong, I still keep my civility about me in the course of the discussion.

You see, unlike your type, I have the ability to acknowledge the fact I can actually be wrong from time-to-time.

Your type are frequently wrong, but they just never acknowledge it, and laugh superiorly in everyone's face who has a different point of view.

I would not trade places with you for all the money in the world. I like being human and having manners.
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That makes two posts now, of no value. Respect is earned, not freely given, and your post didn't deserve any.
 
Simpleχity;1066196847 said:
I beg to differ.

There are extensive threads right here in this Europe sub-forum that demonstrate/explain why US/European relations with Russia are far less than optimal.

The future of Ukraine (162 pages)

Ukraine (41 pages)

Crimea (24 pages)

Russia - Putin (100 pages)
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Again, Ukraine is just one move that has come about because of the numerous other situations that have happened over decades. To look at Ukraine as it's own issue, devoid of the greater context, is not going to work.

Furthermore, the overthrow in Ukraine was illegal and their Kiev government is illegitimate. The Kiev government has western backing and eastern Ukraine has Russian backing.
 
Fishking said:
Could you give an example of this happening?
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Chechnya is the most blatant example of this, although I think Russia's actions there were somewhat legitimate. Ukraine, of course, faced invasion and destabilization once it tried to leave the Russian sphere of influence (and yes, sending special forces to occupy the regional parliament building of another country is unquestionably an invasion).


So why should they be opposed and what is the justification for doing so?
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They're an illiberal autocracy that is attempting to challenge American global hegemony. That second part is key: while there are many illiberal governments, friend and foe, in the world, most are not a significant challenge to the unipolar, liberal world order that I want to maintain.


Also make sure your tin-foil hat is secured and you have spares.
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Mate, you're the one who thinks any negative perception of Russian foreign policy is manufactured by the US government in order to sell weapons.

Of course it has moral force because starting up the Cold War again is stupid.
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How is allowing democratic countries to voluntarily join a defensive alliance restarting the Cold War? The reason Russia opposes NATO's expansion is because every NATO country is off-limits to Russian expansionism, not because NATO poses a threat to Russians themselves.


Jredbaron96 said:
The fact is that it should be no surprise to anyone, especially Russia, that the smaller, weaker states of central and eastern Europe, many of which have been historically oppressed or bullied by larger nations, have sought the safety of NATO. The Baltic, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Polish admissions to NATO are wholly expected given the circumstances. As typical however, Russia had preferred to merely remind everyone of the suffering inflicted on them by invading foreign powers while convienantly forgetting all the misery and oppression the Russian state itself had exported across all of Eastern Europe.
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No, it's not as if every former Soviet satellite state and all the Baltic states have real reasons to fear Russian domination. It's all just an imperialist AmeriKKKan conspiracy to sell weapons platforms.
 
MadLib said:
Chechnya is the most blatant example of this, although I think Russia's actions there were somewhat legitimate. Ukraine, of course, faced invasion and destabilization once it tried to leave the Russian sphere of influence (and yes, sending special forces to occupy the regional parliament building of another country is unquestionably an invasion).
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The overthrow of the Ukrainian government was illegitimate and was interfered with by western powers.

They're an illiberal autocracy that is attempting to challenge American global hegemony. That second part is key: while there are many illiberal governments, friend and foe, in the world, most are not a significant challenge to the unipolar, liberal world order that I want to maintain.
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And Saudi Arabia is one of the biggest exporters of terrorism and pretty much set the standard for illiberalism yet somehow we are buddies with them.

Mate, you're the one who thinks any negative perception of Russian foreign policy is manufactured by the US government in order to sell weapons.
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Well, look at what we do after we ramp up the Russia is scary rhetoric. We do weapons contracts. If it's not that, then I don't know of really many other reasons to be so angsty with them.

How is allowing democratic countries to voluntarily join a defensive alliance restarting the Cold War? The reason Russia opposes NATO's expansion is because every NATO country is off-limits to Russian expansionism, not because NATO poses a threat to Russians themselves.
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Since the democratically elected President of Ukraine was illegally overthrown by western backed neo-nazis I fail to see where voluntary comes into play.
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
You say..." poor relations with Russia" like it is a bad thing.
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Fishking said:
Well, I'll file this under the "because Russia" and now I will laugh in your face.
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Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.

Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?

RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.

Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?

RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.
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We don't have to be friends to have normalized relations.
 
Fishking said:
We don't have to be friends to have normalized relations.
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We already have normalized relations. That doesn't mean we have to trust them in the least - especially when the GOP nominee for president invited them to "find" a former Secretary of State's emails and publish them - and NO, don't try to tell me that he was being sarcastic.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
We already have normalized relations. That doesn't mean we have to trust them in the least - especially when the GOP nominee for president invited them to "find" a former Secretary of State's emails and publish them - and NO, don't try to tell me that he was being sarcastic.
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No, we don't have normalized relations with them. Right now, we are supporting sanctions against Russia, which any honest person would consider an act of war. I'm also not sure what we need to trust them for to have normal relations. Again, we have Turkey as a NATO ally, I don't trust them and they are worse than Russia, in almost every measure.

It would be way better then starting up proxy wars, like we had in Korea and Vietnam. That's what Obama, Hillary, and the rest of the globalists want, though. Stupid wars and conflicts at the expense of the normal people.
 
Fishking said:
No, we don't have normalized relations with them. Right now, we are supporting sanctions against Russia, which any honest person would consider an act of war. I'm also not sure what we need to trust them for to have normal relations. Again, we have Turkey as a NATO ally, I don't trust them and they are worse than Russia, in almost every measure.

It would be way better then starting up proxy wars, like we had in Korea and Vietnam. That's what Obama, Hillary, and the rest of the globalists want, though. Stupid wars and conflicts at the expense of the normal people.
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Um, yeah, we DO have normalized relations with Russia right now. The only nations we don't have normalized relations with are Syria, North Korea, Bhutan, and Iran. If sanctions were an "act of war", then we'd be in TWENTY-EIGHT wars right now.

And I find it quite disingenuous that in the light of what Reagan and Bush 43 did, that you're claiming that it's actually the Democrats who want proxy wars.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Hm, let me see here. RNS - like myself - remembers the Cold War firsthand, and likely has more than a few stories about just how serious a matter it was.

Then we look at Putin - who was a Lieutenant Colonel in the KGB during the Cold War. Gee, nothing to worry about there, huh?

RNS and I tend to butt heads on a lot of things - he's conservative and I'm liberal - but when it comes to Russia, we're both retired Navy and we both have a clue when it comes to whether Russia wants to be our friend. You, sir, don't have that clue. Russia ain't our friend, never has been, and - if you'll learn a bit about Russian history - will not be our friend for the remainder of our lifetimes. It would do well for you to remember Kissinger's maxim that nations don't have friends, nations have interests.
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Well, if we're going into technicalities the Tzars were pretty friendly with the US in the 1800s.....
 
Fishking said:
Furthermore, the overthrow in Ukraine was illegal and their Kiev government is illegitimate.
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I suggest you rethink your propaganda.

Even Moscow recognizes the Presidential/Legislative elections of 2014 and the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with respective ambassadors, embassy, and consulates.

The UN also recognizes the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with Ukraine's seat in the General Assembly. Ukraine is also currently a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council.

No nation in the world (including Russia) recognizes the DNR 'People's Soviet' / LNR 'People's Soviet' as legitimate states.
 
Fishking said:
So do we kick Erdogan's Turkey out of our NATO alliance? .
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We should be putting more pressure on him to be more democratic and to stop attempting to bring increasing religious influence into what is an officially secular state.

Fishking said:
Do we end our special relationship with Saudi Arabia? .
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Morally, we should.

Fishking said:
We have more in common with Russia than many of the nations we have relations with.
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Speak for yourself. Ethically and ideologically I don't, and I started my life in Eastern Europe.
 
Simpleχity;1066200043 said:
I suggest you rethink your propaganda.

Even Moscow recognizes the Presidential/Legislative elections of 2014 and the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with respective ambassadors, embassy, and consulates.

The UN also recognizes the legitimacy of the Kyiv government with Ukraine's seat in the General Assembly. Ukraine is also currently a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council.

No nation in the world (including Russia) recognizes the DNR 'People's Soviet' / LNR 'People's Soviet' as legitimate states.
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It's not propaganda, it's fact.

Did the legitimate President of Ukraine lose an election and refuse to step down?

Was the legitimate President of Ukraine brought up on charges, via the whatever procedures the Ukrainian constitution stipulates, and found guilty and impeached and he refused to step down?

Was any single legally recognized method used to depose the legal sitting President of Ukraine?


No, no legal measure was used. His heinous crime was to not sign an extremely binding trade deal with the EU. Is that a legitimate reason to overthrow the government? If Obama were to pass the TPP would that give us a legitimate excuse to kick him out of office, and skip impeachment proceedings? Was the illegitimate Kiev government operating on their own or were they backed by the West?

Sorry, no. The Kiev government is not legitimate by any reasonable criteria.
 
Urethra Franklin said:
We should be putting more pressure on him to be more democratic and to stop attempting to bring increasing religious influence into what is an officially secular state.

Morally, we should.

Speak for yourself. Ethically and ideologically I don't, and I started my life in Eastern Europe.
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Should, should, should, but don't and the alliances an friendships remain. And, despite where you started out, you still have more in common with Russia than you do with Saudi Arabia or Turkey. Are women property in Russia that have to wear Niqabs and aren't allowed to drive? No? I didn't think so.
 
What are the reasons for poor relations with Russia?
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Putin is a dick; wants to recreate the Soviet Union, only with himself as godfather instead of premier

both countries want to bang their dicks together until sparks fly over who is the coolest superpower

pissing matches over oil

sanctions / other financial nonsense

Europe wants Ukraine, but doesn't want to do anything about it because Russian natural gas, which means that the US has to meddle in the region

fifty years of a useless, dangerous cold war

and last but not least........

Troyb2.jpg

my opinion (cue drumroll) :

we should stay the **** out of it and repair / expand infrastructure here at home.
 
Fishking said:
That makes two posts now, of no value. Respect is earned, not freely given, and your post didn't deserve any.
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It is YOU how demonstrated lack of respect in your very first post when you laughed in my face. Not real good in the people skills department, I can tell.

You lost any and all respect when you laughed in my face. You were the first to say and do that very DISRESPECTFUL thing.

That is NOT how you earn respect from anyone.

I can see from your very first post, you have no idea how to carry on a respectful conversation.

If you think laughing in a stranger's face is how to get respect, you have been living in a cave all your life.

...and the fact you think you did nothing wrong by doing it, only proves to me, you HAVE been living in a cave all your life, and have ZERO personal interactive skills.
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
It is YOU how demonstrated lack of respect in your very first post when you laughed in my face. Not real good in the people skills department, I can tell.

You lost any and all respect when you laughed in my face. You were the first to say and do that very DISRESPECTFUL thing.

That is NOT how you earn respect from anyone.

I can see from your very first post, you have no idea how to carry on a respectful conversation.

If you think laughing in a stranger's face is how to get respect, you have been living in a cave all your life.

...and the fact you think you did nothing wrong by doing it, only proves to me, you HAVE been living in a cave all your life, and have ZERO personal interactive skills.
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That's 3 posts of no value. I stipulated that I would laugh off anyone who posted "cuz Russia" in my OP because it's intellectually worthless. Notice how my responses to other posters was on the topic and no issues. Consider this a quality control check.
 
Fishking said:
No, we don't have normalized relations with them. Right now, we are supporting sanctions against Russia, which any honest person would consider an act of war. I'm also not sure what we need to trust them for to have normal relations. Again, we have Turkey as a NATO ally, I don't trust them and they are worse than Russia, in almost every measure.

It would be way better then starting up proxy wars, like we had in Korea and Vietnam. That's what Obama, Hillary, and the rest of the globalists want, though. Stupid wars and conflicts at the expense of the normal people.
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Did you hear that, Glen...he says Turkey is worse that Russia. That comment alone tells me, he has not been anywhere and knows nothing of the real world. Only what he reads in the New York Times, or sees on MSNBC.
 
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