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How should the U.S. have handled Vietnam and Iraq?

Greetings, JC. :2wave:

I have a collection of old Reader's Digests from the 1930s and 1940s that were left to me when my beloved grandfather passed away. One in particular had a story about how furious General Eisenhower was when he saw a concentration camp with skeletal survivors barely alive. He ordered the people from a town nearby, who said they didn't know how bad things were in the camps, to immediately begin taking care of them, and he left money with the town leader to help buy food and whatever else they needed until further help from us was sent. We didn't start that war, but thankfully we did help end it!

So yes, to answer your question, it became our responsibility to aid those poor souls, not because it was our problem, but because it was the right thing to do for fellow human beings who were victims of one of the most evil men in history. Would most of us not do the same? I believe we would - and have over the years - to help people all around the world when disaster strikes their country, and those who try to profit from their people suffering will have their own karma to pay, IMO....

Hey Pg *hug* :2wave:, I've always liked the fact that the U.S. does so much to help countries around the world! We're obviously not perfect, but it's so sad that some folks like to blame us for everything and suggest we stay out of everyone else's business. Well, we've decided to do that in the past and things have gotten way out of control, and the Final Solution is a profoundly sad example, imo.

Btw, hope you're doing well!
 
Hey Pg *hug* :2wave:, I've always liked the fact that the U.S. does so much to help countries around the world! We're obviously not perfect, but it's so sad that some folks like to blame us for everything and suggest we stay out of everyone else's business. Well, we've decided to do that in the past and things have gotten way out of control, and the Final Solution is a profoundly sad example, imo.

Btw, hope you're doing well!

Doing as well as I can considering there's been a cold rain falling all day! :thumbdown: The dogs thought they wanted to go outside to romp around - until I opened the door! They did go pee and were back indoors in 45 seconds! :lol:
 
Doing as well as I can considering there's been a cold rain falling all day! :thumbdown: The dogs thought they wanted to go outside to romp around - until I opened the door! They did go pee and were back indoors in 45 seconds! :lol:

At least you have self cleaning dogs. :lol: I remember having labs growing up and having to clean them off pretty good when they would stay out in the rain/mud for a while.
 
Either way he is wrong. Going in was not a bad decision. If we were indeed going after terrorist Saddam was the #1 terrorist at that time. It was the failure of Bush to get UN backing for the long process of rebuilding a war torn country. While our military had no trouble removing Saddam from power and crushing his military it was the rebuilding that would need the worlds cooperation. Obama pulling out the troops was also wrong. Once the US has made a commitment it should be honored by the next president. Instead he pulled the troops out of Iraq and put them in Afghanistan. He should have finished Iraq before undertaking another military operation or committed enough troops to do both. It was not the removal of leader that was terrorizing millions of people that was the wrong. It was the party bickering that did not allow us to follow through with what we started. Both parties clearly were for removing or Saddam from power. Clearly the loss of commitment by the democrats after the fact was the ultimate failing.

Just...no.

1. A meglomaniacal dictator like Saddam simply is not a threat to U.S. National Security. They are a threat to their people, but that is not why we went in. We went in because the Bush admin said he had WMDs and drew on our fear/anger following 9/11 to insinuate that Saddam was a "terrorist" and therefore a threat to our National Security.

2. "Party bickering" had precisely nothing to do with the follow-through. Bush was CiC. He had as much control as he wanted over the invasion and post-invasion efforts.

3. You also seem to be forgetting that Obama was elected on a platform of getting out of Iraq, and even the Iraqis wanted us to go.

4. We simply cannot afford to be world police nor are we good at it. If you think we should have been in Iraq to get Saddam simply because he was a bad man, what about Sudan? Somalia? Libya? Egypt? Saudi Arabi? Iran? The world is full of bad murderous governments and we quite plainly cannot deal with even a fraction of them. Your position, if you mean it, seems to compel you to say we should be in all of those countries right now.



But then I get to last sentence and see that yours is an argument purely from bias. (I mean really. Bush says there are WMDs in Iraq and that Saddam is going to sell one to terrorists to use on us, so congress backs him up. And now, 15 years later, this is supposed to be ultimately the Democrats fault?)



I think you need to recheck those numbers. If you want to compare apples to apples Stalin ordered the deaths of 3 to 4 million out of a population or close to 200 million. Saddam killed close to 1 million out of 30 million. Either way Stalin did not kill half the people of Russia.

I think you need to recheck those numbers. The very first google result turns up:

Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million. Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.

In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin. In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties.


How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?



I definitely recall seeing someone arguing as high as I stated, but I'm not going to bother tracking it down because this is close enough. These also don't seem to include the 10-20 million killed in WWII, which deaths were often the result of horrible strategic planning by Stalin, and scant proper equipment, again because of Stalin's economic policies.
 
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That is none of our business. I do not want the United States to invade every country that has a government that displeases us.

And they've been doing that?

"No", but the fact that the answer is "no" isn't an argument against SmartCat. It's an argument against the claim that Iraq was an intervention justified by the fact that Saddam was an evil dictator: we're hypocrites if that was the reason.

We turned and coughed when Sudan turned into a genocidal ****storm, we haven't invaded Iran or other brutal dictatorships, etc etc etc.




Going into Iraq was not and could not have been about punishing a bad man. And if it was, it was arbitrary and capricious given all the other places we failed to intervene in.
 
"No", but the fact that the answer is "no" isn't an argument against SmartCat. It's an argument against the claim that Iraq was an intervention justified by the fact that Saddam was an evil dictator: we're hypocrites if that was the reason.
So Saddam wasn't 'evil'?
We turned and coughed when Sudan turned into a genocidal ****storm, we haven't invaded Iran or other brutal dictatorships, etc etc etc.
So the idea is to invade all evil dictatorships or none of them? Perhaps some are more winnable than others, or make more strategic sense over the long term. Ever thought of that?
 
"No", but the fact that the answer is "no" isn't an argument against SmartCat. It's an argument against the claim that Iraq was an intervention justified by the fact that Saddam was an evil dictator: we're hypocrites if that was the reason.

We turned and coughed when Sudan turned into a genocidal ****storm, we haven't invaded Iran or other brutal dictatorships, etc etc etc.

Going into Iraq was not and could not have been about punishing a bad man. And if it was, it was arbitrary and capricious given all the other places we failed to intervene in.

The Bush administration thought that American forces would be greeted as liberators by the Iraqis, that the Iraqis would quickly set about creating a pro American, pro capitalist democracy, and that Iraqi oil would play for the war effort, and reduce the price of gasoline. The Bush administration was of course badly mistaken.
 
The Bush administration thought that American forces would be greeted as liberators by the Iraqis, that the Iraqis would quickly set about creating a pro American, pro capitalist democracy, and that Iraqi oil would play for the war effort, and reduce the price of gasoline. The Bush administration was of course badly mistaken.
Do you have links to support any of this or are you just sharing your fantasies?
 
Do you have links to support any of this or are you just sharing your fantasies?

I was an adult and paying attention to politics when this all went down, and I directly recall all of the statements he just made other than the reference to the price of gasoline.

Not only did they tell the American people that the war would pay for itself and the Iraqis were yearning for Democratic freedom (rather than itching to slaughter each other, stopped only till then by Saddam), but this actually underlay their policy. This thinking is why the war costs were massively underestimated. This thinking is why they disbanded the Iraqi army without thinking of what might happen of 400,000 armed and suddenly jobless relatively young men in a war torn country. This thinking is why infrastructure and historical treasures weren't guarded.

This thinking is why Iraq quickly descended into Sunni v. Shiite violence. This thinking is what created the lawless zones that Al Queda and other terrorists quickly filled in, often taking recruits from the disbanded Iraqi army.

It was the most profoundly naive thinking. I argued it to my parents in law at the time (they wanted us to go in). I'd have posted it here if I was into internet debating then.


What SmartCat said is true.
 
"No", but the fact that the answer is "no" isn't an argument against SmartCat. It's an argument against the claim that Iraq was an intervention justified by the fact that Saddam was an evil dictator: we're hypocrites if that was the reason.

So Saddam wasn't 'evil'?



If you're going to respond to a post that says Saddam is an evil dictator with "So Saddam wasn't 'evil'", I might be wasting my time....



1. Yes, he was evil. I said so.

2. No, the fact that he was evil was not a particularly good reason to go in because we hypocritically ignore tons of other evil dictators, genocidal civil wars, etc., around the world. You can't very well claim that going after evil people is our Modus Operandi when deciding whether to go into war.

Hell, we didn't even raise a finger to stop the Holocaust until a different axis power bombed Pearl Harbor. Then, finally, we figured we were forced to fight Germany as well.

If we were great big evil-stoppers, we'd be involved in hot wars over at least 50% of the globe at any given time. So that's not a good enough reason to get Saddam. It's just not.
 
If you're going to respond to a post that says Saddam is an evil dictator with "So Saddam wasn't 'evil'", I might be wasting my time....1. Yes, he was evil. I said so.
Yes, Obama was evil. He was evil with his own people and evil with his neighbors. He was evil enough that even the corrupt UN recognized him as evil and passed resolution 1441.
2. No, the fact that he was evil was not a particularly good reason to go in because we hypocritically ignore tons of other evil dictators, genocidal civil wars, etc., around the world. You can't very well claim that going after evil people is our Modus Operandi when deciding whether to go into war.
Despite an earlier explanation you don;t seem to understand priorities and long term goals. This, and the chances of winning, all have to be taken into consideration. Your 'all or nothing' simplicity is not realistic.
Hell, we didn't even raise a finger to stop the Holocaust until a different axis power bombed Pearl Harbor. Then, finally, we figured we were forced to fight Germany as well.
Twenty years earlier the American people lost many thousands of lives in 'The war to end all wars' and then were asked to go over again and sacrifice more lives. Blame the Germans for the Holocaust, not the Americans. The term "Holocaust" didn't even exist at that time in regards to the evils of Nazism, and you expect Americans to intuit it?.
If we were great big evil-stoppers, we'd be involved in hot wars over at least 50% of the globe at any given time. So that's not a good enough reason to get Saddam. It's just not.
Do you really believe getting involved in 50% of the world is the only alternative to not getting involved at all? And who do you mean by "we"? Do you really not know that there was a Coalition of countries involved in Iraq and that in 2011 it was actually stable, sovereign and a democracy?
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?
In Vietnam either we helped the People against their dictator when we were asked or fought an all out war and won.
Iraq, we should not have invaded in the first place things would be far different today had we simply stayed out.
 
If you're going to respond to a post that says Saddam is an evil dictator with "So Saddam wasn't 'evil'", I might be wasting my time....

Yes, Obama was evil. He was evil with his own people and evil with his neighbors. He was evil enough that even the corrupt UN recognized him as evil and passed resolution 1441.

That's one whopping Freudian slip there, fella....



Twenty years earlier the American people lost many thousands of lives in 'The war to end all wars' and then were asked to go over again and sacrifice more lives. Blame the Germans for the Holocaust, not the Americans. The term "Holocaust" didn't even exist at that time in regards to the evils of Nazism, and you expect Americans to intuit it?.

Please. They didn't need to know that the long-existing noun "holocaust" would be turned into the pronoun "The Holocaust" in order to know Hitler had begun targeting Jews for extermination.

That's just intellectually dishonest.




The bottom line is that we do not have any general police of getting evil people because they are evil, and you know it.
 
That's one whopping Freudian slip there, fella....
It can be argued both ways I suppose but perhaps ignorant works best.
Please. They didn't need to know that the long-existing noun "holocaust" would be turned into the pronoun "The Holocaust" in order to know Hitler had begun targeting Jews for extermination.
Is it your understanding that the American people knew of the Holocaust taking place in Germany but still decided to nothing about it? That would seem to compare with the treatment of Christians in the Middle East, and elsewhere, today. Yet Muslims, like the Nazis before them, seem to be getting a pass.
The bottom line is that we do not have any general police of getting evil people because they are evil, and you know it.
Of course I know it and have already explained twice why this is so. Again, it depends on priorities, the determination of success, and many other factors.
 
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