• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How should the U.S. have handled Vietnam and Iraq?

The big problem with the cold war was that western countries cared very little about freedom and democracy for third world countries. That they prefered brutal dictatorship that was loyal to the west and profitable for western countries. On the other hand the popular uprising against those brutal dictatorship was often supported and taken over by the Soviet and China. So you ended up with brutal dictatorship either loyal to the West, China or the Soviet Union.
 
The big problem with the cold war was that western countries cared very little about freedom and democracy for third world countries. That they prefered brutal dictatorship that was loyal to the west and profitable for western countries. On the other hand the popular uprising against those brutal dictatorship was often supported and taken over by the Soviet and China. So you ended up with brutal dictatorship either loyal to the West, China or the Soviet Union.

Agreed. And that has clearly changed. The West's policy now is global democracy through development. Said development is encouraged through various means, usually diplomatic and economic ties.
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

Well, Johnson escalated the war in VN after Kennedy's assassination of Diem, which made the escalation a necessity, and by 1968 the Viet Cong was toast as an organization, so obviously Johnson's escalation worked. But, we had a lot of Burb Brats by then, who insisted on swallowing all the Soviet propaganda being fed to them by left wing cranks, so they got Johnson ousted, thereby shooting themselves in the foot re many of the liberal policies he pushed through along with encouraging the Soviets to keep propping up North Vietnam , and left the door wide open for Nixon to get elected. Nixon managed to neutralize the Left both domestically and internationally, by essentially continuing Johnson's policy of containment, and by 1973 the Soviet Union was bankrupt and pulling out of not just Viet Nam but the rest of Asia, the ME after the Israeli victories, and Africa as well, so to call Viet Nam a 'failure' is to not understand the overall geo-political victory over the Soviets our involvement there created. The Soviets spent the rest of the decade as a failed state trying to come to a soft landing, dependent on Western food and petroleum aids. Claiming Viet Nam was some sort of Major Defeat for the U.S. is just silly, even if it is fashionable to run around babbling it was so.

As for Iraq, the main failure was the stupid idea that 'nation building' will work on medieval Islmao-vermin 'cultures'. Letting Saddam sit there until he died of old age was not an option, no matter what some half-wits with high self-esteem routinely proclaim in editorials.
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

To answer this right, it depends on perspective.
As a hegemonic empire or as a jane or tom nobody.
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

Vietnam was a mistake right from the outset, as up to 80% of the population supported Ho Chi Minh at any given point. Attempting to impose an anticommunist client regime against the popular will was doomed to fail. The better course of action would have been to support Minh's claims against the French after WWII and attempt to pry Vietnam away from the Soviet sphere - communist Yugoslavia was not an ally of the Soviet Union, for example - while strengthening the governments of Laos and Cambodia.

Iraq is a bit more complicated. Any invasion should have occurred in the immediate aftermath of the Gulf War in support of the 1991 popular uprisings against Saddam, so that more Iraqis would see us as liberators rather than occupiers. Invading in 2003, when our main priority should have been to destroy al-Qaeda, was ill-advised. On the other hand, I think it would have been better if we could have stayed longer to prevent jihadist groups from spreading into Iraq out of Syria, and I fully support our bombing campaign in assistance of Iraq's war of national liberation against ISIS.
 
Both were cherry picked wars.

Both were wrong.

People died.

The end.

The VietNam war ended well for the Vietnamese. They got their own country, for the first time in generations, and they're doing pretty well with it, too. My son toured SE Asia a couple years ago- he liked what he saw and he has a disappointing conservative slant. He said there's small-scale capitalism everywhere and the people are prosperous and optimistic.
 
The big problem with the cold war was that western countries cared very little about freedom and democracy for third world countries. That they prefered brutal dictatorship that was loyal to the west and profitable for western countries. On the other hand the popular uprising against those brutal dictatorship was often supported and taken over by the Soviet and China. So you ended up with brutal dictatorship either loyal to the West, China or the Soviet Union.

Well, maybe dictatorship is the natural form of government in much of the world. Imposed democracy seems to be doomed to failure, more often than not.
 
Well, maybe dictatorship is the natural form of government in much of the world. Imposed democracy seems to be doomed to failure, more often than not.



I have known many mainland Chinese in my life, and most of not all of them prefer the order of a totalitarian government. A Chinese exchange student here described our system as "chaos" and that she lived in fear because there were no soldiers and so few police. "No one ever checks my I.D." she complained.

Another I knew told of his first experience traveling outside of China, and was only relieved when he was back under Soviet control in eastern Europe.

I would, however, caution anyone who thinks Sikhs, or any Indian for that matter would think similarly. They value their freedom more than any people I know. Maybe because how they had to fight for it, through massacres etc.
 
I have known many mainland Chinese in my life, and most of not all of them prefer the order of a totalitarian government. A Chinese exchange student here described our system as "chaos" and that she lived in fear because there were no soldiers and so few police. "No one ever checks my I.D." she complained.

Another I knew told of his first experience traveling outside of China, and was only relieved when he was back under Soviet control in eastern Europe.

I would, however, caution anyone who thinks Sikhs, or any Indian for that matter would think similarly. They value their freedom more than any people I know. Maybe because how they had to fight for it, through massacres etc.

Many westerners are evangelists of democracy, as if they've found a priceless secret and want to be generous with it. Actually, it seems unworkable and unwelcome in much of the world. I say, keep our noses out of the lives of others. We've still got a ways to go before we make of democracy something we can be proud of.
As for Sikhs, they're a warrior culture. They've never been taught, through generations of feudalism, that people have stations and everyone is locked into his place in the hierarchy. An example is how an English lord would have been embarrassed had a plowman or baker stepped up to defend his honour while a Highland clan chief expected that every man in his clan trained in the use of weapons and would defend his clan and clan chief.
 
Americans would have done themselves and the world a big favor by not allowing George Bush II to drag them wars. Shameful how they waste the lives of their youth but giving power to war merchants.
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

There was no way to win in Vietnam- we went in there without understanding the people and totally focused on opposing communism that it blinded us. Ho Chi Minh sent letters to 4 US presidents and was ignored. He was a nationalist first and communist second and at one point even proposed that Vietnam would copy the US Constitution if America would help it gain independence. So what did we do? We doubled down and aided the French, then set up a dictatorship in the South. Then we lost 50K of our own troops for it.

As for Iraq, well, our invasion gave rise to ISIS. I dont think anything more needs to be said about that.
 
Vietnam? Either avoid becoming involved entirely, try to turn Ho Chi Minh into an ally, rather than an enemy, or force a more direct confrontation with the North. The last option would have likely drawn China into the war. However, it also would have likely resulted in both sides eventually backing down (fearing nuclear escalation), and signing an armistice akin to what developed in Korea.

In Iraq, we should have left more of the national army and government in place. Scrapping the existing army was, simply speaking, idiotic. It put tens of thousands of trained and organized Iraqis, most of whom were ready and willing to fight for us, out of a job, and pushed them into the arms of the insurgency. It also obligated us to devote the time and resources necessary to construct a new national army from scratch, while leaving a power vacuum that extremist domestic and international militant organizations were more than happy to fill in the interim.
 
Many westerners are evangelists of democracy, as if they've found a priceless secret and want to be generous with it. Actually, it seems unworkable and unwelcome in much of the world. I say, keep our noses out of the lives of others. We've still got a ways to go before we make of democracy something we can be proud of.
As for Sikhs, they're a warrior culture. They've never been taught, through generations of feudalism, that people have stations and everyone is locked into his place in the hierarchy. An example is how an English lord would have been embarrassed had a plowman or baker stepped up to defend his honour while a Highland clan chief expected that every man in his clan trained in the use of weapons and would defend his clan and clan chief.



I agree. Our attempts to "spread freedom" has cost a lot of lives in places where democracy is not wanted. Also, we have been very selective about where democracy is spread, Saudi Arabia comes to mind as one...
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

Read These.
 
There was no way to win in Vietnam- we went in there without understanding the people and totally focused on opposing communism that it blinded us. Ho Chi Minh sent letters to 4 US presidents and was ignored. He was a nationalist first and communist second and at one point even proposed that Vietnam would copy the US Constitution if America would help it gain independence. So what did we do? We doubled down and aided the French, then set up a dictatorship in the South. Then we lost 50K of our own troops for it.

As for Iraq, well, our invasion gave rise to ISIS. I dont think anything more needs to be said about that.

I'm assuming Ike was one of the presidents Ho Chi Minh sent a letter to, why do you suppose a seemingly reasonable and war weary Ike blow him off?
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures
They are/were

that should've been avoided,
Absolutely should of been.

but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support.
Cool. Doesnt make them not less of failures/mistakes.

Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading.
So, what?

And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's?
Yes. Saddam got rid of/dismantled them years before.
Here was the US position on Saddam and WMDs in Feb 2001:



And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?
Nah. He didnt have any. Cant use something you dont have.

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?
Yea. Not our business to be there in the first place.
Look here, after the French withdrew from Vietnam there was supposed to be an election nationwide in Vietnam. It was clear that Ho Chi Minh was going to win, because he was overwhelmingly popular, thus creating a unified Vietnamese state under his rule. US said no, no to this and then through the UN cancelled the election, thus opening up the way for the continuation of armed struggle in hopes of unifying the country. Point being, Vietnam was gonna be united one way or another and it sure as **** aint through US imperialism.
 
They are/were


Absolutely should of been.


Cool. Doesnt make them not less of failures/mistakes.


So, what?


Yes. Saddam got rid of/dismantled them years before.
Here was the US position on Saddam and WMDs in Feb 2001:




Nah. He didnt have any. Cant use something you dont have.


Yea. Not our business to be there in the first place.
Look here, after the French withdrew from Vietnam there was supposed to be an election nationwide in Vietnam. It was clear that Ho Chi Minh was going to win, because he was overwhelmingly popular, thus creating a unified Vietnamese state under his rule. US said no, no to this and then through the UN cancelled the election, thus opening up the way for the continuation of armed struggle in hopes of unifying the country. Point being, Vietnam was gonna be united one way or another and it sure as **** aint through US imperialism.


Elections in the North were pretty clearly rigged, which is precisely why the US objected to them.

Ho Chi Minh and his government were hardly "liberators." The government was, and remains today, a brutal dictatorship. They primarily relied upon mass insurgent terror campaigns aimed almost exclusively against civilians in order to try and force the South into capitulation. After the South ultimately fell (due to the US withdrawing support), they went on a killing spree which forced tens of thousands of people to flee the country.

Our failure in Vietnam was a tragedy. Nothing less. It's absurd how the Left continues to gloat over it even today.
 
Elections in the North were pretty clearly rigged, which is precisely why the US objected to them.

Ho Chi Minh and his government were hardly "liberators." The government was, and remains today, a brutal dictatorship. They primarily relied upon mass insurgent terror campaigns aimed almost exclusively against civilians in order to try and force the South into capitulation. After the South ultimately fell (due to the US withdrawing support), they went on a killing spree which forced tens of thousands of people to flee the country.

Our failure in Vietnam was a tragedy. Nothing less. It's absurd how the Left continues to gloat over it even today.

Ho Chi ..................... killed of thousands before the elections to make his point. It was a no win for the north.
 
Fair enough. I think some folks feel a moral obligation to keep the world as safe as possible. You don't seem to share that sentiment as long as our safety isn't jeopardized.

One could argue neither Vietnam nor Iraq kept the world as safe as possible.
 
Elections in the North were pretty clearly rigged, which is precisely why the US objected to them. Ho Chi Minh and his government were hardly "liberators." The government was, and remains today, a brutal dictatorship. They primarily relied upon mass insurgent terror campaigns aimed almost exclusively against civilians in order to try and force the South into capitulation. After the South ultimately fell (due to the US withdrawing support), they went on a killing spree which forced tens of thousands of people to flee the country. Our failure in Vietnam was a tragedy. Nothing less. It's absurd how the Left continues to gloat over it even today.

The elections of the South were rigged, the regime killed and imprisoned opposition to their incestuous government. We never supported democracy, we supported a puppet who claimed to be anti-commie and that is all we cared about.

BushII and the PUBs in congress didn't seem to think United Vietnam is still a brutal dictatorship- there are a series of treaties and agreements now in effect. From textiles to a permanent normal trade relations treaty.

South Vietnam fell because the regime could never get the people behind it. There was more than enough time, certainly enough spent to stand-up the ARVN forces. Corruption and putting a premium on political allegiance over competence (Like we did in both Iraq and Afghanistan) is what doomed the South, not us finally saying enough is enough.

We Americans seem to ignore the facts for our own propaganda. I sincerely doubt our Revolution would have ended as 'nicely' as it did if England had used the same tactics we did in Vietnam. While many decry the ROE, fact is for most a Vietnam a dead gook was VC. Imagine if England had declared huge free fire zones and burned down our cities. The Tories in the South received some pretty rough treatment but imagine what a decade of war that killed entire villages would have done. Imagine if entire villages were uprooted and moved into barbed wire enclosures to separate them from the Rebels.

BTW who is gloating over Vietnam??? :doh
 
Many people seem to believe that our wars in Vietnam and Iraq were utter failures that should've been avoided, but there were reasons we went that had bipartisan support. Communism was a pretty big deal back then and it was spreading. And Iraq...would you really be surprised if we did find WMD's? And do you think a guy who gassed his own citizens would possible consider using them on us or our allies?

Bonus question: Would you still say Vietnam was a mistake if we ended up winning in the early 70's?

Vietnam was a failure because the objective was lost nearly two years after we withdrew, when north vietnam overran south vietnam. Iraq.....we will have to wait until all the dust settles. If ISIS is vanquished as it eventually must be, Iraq could turn out well.
 
The elections of the South were rigged, the regime killed and imprisoned opposition to their incestuous government. We never supported democracy, we supported a puppet who claimed to be anti-commie and that is all we cared about.

Which basically makes the situation almost identical to what existed in Korea. There, the South was essentially a Fascist Dictatorship (and an often turbulent one at that) well up until the late 1980s. That doesn't, however, mean that the Kims would have been a preferable alternative. To the contrary, history has seen the South become a thriving First World economy and liberal democratic regime, where the North has become a tyrannical international joke.

Ultimately, much the same was the case in Vietnam. The South was a mess, sure. However, that ultimately had just as much to do with our counter-productive meddling, and insistence on fighting a half-felt, defensive, and reactionary war, as it did anything else. Frankly, even with those failings, if we had maintained our air support, and simply beat the NVA back every time they made a move, there was really no reason why the government of South Vietnam could not have survived, potentially even prospered, as Korea did.

In any case, none of the above makes the North under Ho Chi Minh the "good guys" of this story, as the popular Left so often wants to claim. The entire "take that, you deserved it!" attitude the popular Left so often wants to take towards the eventual outcome of the conflict is nothing less than outright disgusting.

Simply speaking, everything the South was guilty of, the North was and is guilty of as well, only worse. Absolutely nothing excuses our allowing the Vietnamese people to fall and languish under a tyrannical Communist government in Third World poverty for the last fifty years.

We failed the people of Vietnam. That's really all there is to it.
 
Which basically makes the situation almost identical to what existed in Korea. There, the South was essentially a Fascist Dictatorship (and an often turbulent one at that) well up until the late 1980s. That doesn't, however, mean that the Kims would have been a preferable alternative. To the contrary, history has seen the South become a thriving First World economy and liberal democratic regime, where the North has become a tyrannical international joke. Ultimately, much the same was the case in Vietnam. The South was a mess, sure. However, that ultimately had just as much to do with our counter-productive meddling, and insistence on fighting a half-felt, defensive, and reactionary war, as it did anything else. Frankly, even with those failings, if we had maintained our air support, and simply beat the NVA back every time they made a move, there was really no reason why the government of South Vietnam could not have survived, potentially even prospered, as Korea did. In any case, none of the above makes the North under Ho Chi Minh the "good guys" of this story, as the popular Left so often wants to claim. The entire "take that, you deserved it!" attitude the popular Left so often wants to take towards the eventual outcome of the conflict is nothing less than outright disgusting. Simply speaking, everything the South was guilty of, the North was and is guilty of as well, only worse. Absolutely nothing excuses our allowing the Vietnamese people to fall and languish under a tyrannical Communist government in Third World poverty for the last fifty years. We failed the people of Vietnam. That's really all there is to it.

Politically Korea was like Vietnam- geographically world's different. An isolated peninsula, old grunt saying, you must choose 'good ground' to stand and fight. Korea was winnable in a conventional war, it had far better terrain to fight a modern war, and the enemy chose to fight a 'stand-up' war. Vietnam was a far different battle field, the jungle made a far more difficult battle ground. Our enemy didn't push massive conventional forces across the DMZ so we could fight a stand-up war, they learned.

No young man, if we 'beat back' every attack in Vietnam we would still be beating back every attack. Our ignorance and arrogance had us believing the enemy would stick to OUR script. WE don't fight for other's freedom- that is the biggest crock ever. We fight so others can stand-up and fight for THEIR freedom. Did France pours thousands of troops into the Colonies back in 1774? Did they fight for us, do the biggest part of the fighting? Did our commanders line their pockets? Did our Congress order thousands of city kids rounded up to fill out half trained units? Did the French have to put their Officers and NCOs in our units to 'advise' them?

Would we have stopped if England 'beat back every attack'???

If you read a bit on the partition after the French were beaten you'll see the South with Western support stopped the elections that should be held. I know the popular myth is the North 'cheated' but the dictator we set-up in the South never held the elections that the treaty called for.

I dunno what Vietnam you think existed in the South, it was for the most part a third world cesspool only propped up by MASSIVE amounts of greenbacks which ruined the local economies. The peasants didn't care who abused them- their's was a **** end of the stick no matter who ran the far away government.

For all you may disagree, but now that Vietnam is one, they are becoming a second world nation we have many treaties with. (and the liberals didn't do that- BushII did)

I don't see 'the liberals' gloating, I did see Vietnam vets trying to warn BushII about invading Iraq. I do see many of all political leans wishing the Neo-Cons had learned the lessons of Vietnam.

But the gloating... don't see that... :peace
 
Minded her own business.

And you should almost never do these 'police actions' without a declaration of war.

No half measures. Either declare war and hit them with everything you have. Or leave them alone.

George Bush senior did it right. He got consensus from TONS of countries to liberate Kuwait. He had international support. He built up his forces and - with lots of help - struck and did the job brilliantly. The cause was clear cut and just. The consensus huge.

Why his son would ignore all that and do such an utterly silly job of it is beyond me. Sure, he conquered Iraq fine (though he still should not have invaded). But that incredible idiot Bremer made a complete pig's breakfast of everything. And since it was Bush who appointed him, it is Bush's responsibility.

And I am not interested in debating this with anyone. Iraqi Freedom was a GIANT mistake...period. Nothing anyone can say will change my mind.


Vietnam was better intentioned, but horribly executed. They should have just Linebackered (aerial bombed) the North until they agreed to leave the South alone. No U.S. troops on the ground (except guarding the air bases). No 'Rolling Blunder'...just B-52 the North (along with support/the Navy) until their ears bleed or they play nice.
 
Last edited:
I'm assuming Ike was one of the presidents Ho Chi Minh sent a letter to, why do you suppose a seemingly reasonable and war weary Ike blow him off?

Ike never really wrote much about it after he left the presidency to discuss it but I would say he bears a lot of responsibility for it because it was under his watch that American involvement began. It seems that our attitude back then was it would be just another Korea but in reality it was totally different.

Here is one little thing that he did write though:

Eisenhower said:
I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs, who did not agree that had an election been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 percent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than [the French- appointed ex-emperor] Chief of State Bao Dai.
 
Back
Top Bottom