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Ex-NSA Director, US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel

DA60

DA60

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'Ex-NSA Director, US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War'


'MEMORANDUM FOR: Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany
FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
SUBJECT: Ukraine and NATO

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq. We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then; we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now. Twelve years ago, former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, mindful of the flimsiness of the evidence on Iraqi WMD, refused to join in the attack on Iraq. In our view, you should be appropriately suspicions of charges made by the US State Department and NATO officials alleging a Russian invasion of Ukraine.'

...

'For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)
Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)'


Germany’s Merkel Needs To Ask Tough Questions at NATO Summit « Antiwar.com Blog



This is very interesting.
 
DA60 said:
'Ex-NSA Director, US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War'


'MEMORANDUM FOR: Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany
FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
SUBJECT: Ukraine and NATO

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq. We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then; we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now. Twelve years ago, former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, mindful of the flimsiness of the evidence on Iraqi WMD, refused to join in the attack on Iraq. In our view, you should be appropriately suspicions of charges made by the US State Department and NATO officials alleging a Russian invasion of Ukraine.'

...

'For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)
Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)'


Germany’s Merkel Needs To Ask Tough Questions at NATO Summit « Antiwar.com Blog



This is very interesting.
Click to expand...

Not all that interesting to me. There have always been those that question the truth and refuse to see the obvious. And even sometimes, band together to make public statements that are not supported by the overwhelming facts.

In fact, we have a whole subforum for these types of folks to post such claims... Conspiracy Theories

These particular folks just used a more public avenue to make the same types of claims.
 
At least they're being forthright about their belief.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Not all that interesting to me. There have always been those that question the truth and refuse to see the obvious. And even sometimes, band together to make public statements that are not supported by the overwhelming facts.

In fact, we have a whole subforum for these types of folks to post such claims... Conspiracy Theories

These particular folks just used a more public avenue to make the same types of claims.
Click to expand...

Personally, I do think the Russians are involved.
But to compare a bunch of faceless nobodies on a 'chat' forum to a former technical director of the NSA...well, all I can say is 'whatever'.


Good day.
 
Last edited:
DA60 said:
'Ex-NSA Director, US Intelligence Veterans Write Open Letter To Merkel To Avoid All-Out Ukraine War'


'MEMORANDUM FOR: Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany
FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)
SUBJECT: Ukraine and NATO

We the undersigned are longtime veterans of U.S. intelligence. We take the unusual step of writing this open letter to you to ensure that you have an opportunity to be briefed on our views prior to the NATO summit on September 4-5.

You need to know, for example, that accusations of a major Russian "invasion" of Ukraine appear not to be supported by reliable intelligence. Rather, the "intelligence" seems to be of the same dubious, politically "fixed" kind used 12 years ago to "justify" the U.S.-led attack on Iraq. We saw no credible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq then; we see no credible evidence of a Russian invasion now. Twelve years ago, former Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, mindful of the flimsiness of the evidence on Iraqi WMD, refused to join in the attack on Iraq. In our view, you should be appropriately suspicions of charges made by the US State Department and NATO officials alleging a Russian invasion of Ukraine.'

...

'For the Steering Group, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

William Binney, former Technical Director, World Geopolitical & Military Analysis, NSA; co-founder, SIGINT Automation Research Center (ret.)
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council (ret.)
Ray McGovern, former US Army infantry/intelligence officer & CIA analyst (ret.)
Elizabeth Murray, Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Middle East (ret.)
Todd E. Pierce, MAJ, US Army Judge Advocate (Ret.)
Coleen Rowley, Division Counsel & Special Agent, FBI (ret.)
Ann Wright, Col., US Army (ret.); Foreign Service Officer (resigned)'


Germany’s Merkel Needs To Ask Tough Questions at NATO Summit « Antiwar.com Blog



This is very interesting.
Click to expand...

Two points:

1. I'm not sure the retired Intelligence personnel are in a position to fully judge the degree of the Russian intervention. It does appear far short of "major" or "massive" from independent reports. However, it should be noted that the retired personnel are not privy to classified information, so one should not assume that they possess more information than the German Chancellor does.

2. Their point about avoiding an all-out war in Ukraine is a good one. There is no evidence that the German Chancellor has ever supported such a war. Indeed, NATO has ruled out military intervention in Ukraine and the German Chancellor has rejected arms supplies to Ukraine to avoid any perceptions that there is a military solution. She recognizes that the balance of power decidedly favors Russia and is focused on a diplomatic solution.
 
DA60 said:
Personally, I do think the Russians are involved.
But to compare a bunch of faceless nobodies on a 'chat' forum to a former technical director of the NSA...well, all I can say is 'whatever'.


Good day.
Click to expand...

I in no way meant to insult you. If I did, I apologize. The people on that list should be researched, regarding their full history and their current views on any military intervention, before being believed, however. There is overwhelming evidence in the public arena (and even more that is not public, but classified) that totally dismiss the claims by this group.

Again, sorry for any insult I made. I respect you as a member here and respect your opinion - even on this.
 
Beaudreaux said:
I in no way meant to insult you. If I did, I apologize. The people on that list should be researched, regarding their full history and their current views on any military intervention, before being believed, however. There is overwhelming evidence in the public arena (and even more that is not public, but classified) that totally dismiss the claims by this group.

Again, sorry for any insult I made. I respect you as a member here and respect your opinion - even on this.
Click to expand...

The public arena, the public perception is constantly manipulated. The public arena was told in very certain terms that Russia was responsible for MH17. Once again, the public was lied to, and the facts and evidence do not support that certain "conclusion" from "unnamed Pentagon sources" that were shoved down our collective throats on July 18.
 
Henry David said:
The public arena, the public perception is constantly manipulated. The public arena was told in very certain terms that Russia was responsible for MH17. Once again, the public was lied to, and the facts and evidence do not support that certain "conclusion" from "unnamed Pentagon sources" that were shoved down our collective throats on July 18.
Click to expand...

I don't remember Russia being blamed for MH17. Maybe for giving the separatist rebels the AA missiles that brought it down, but not for actually shooting it down. It was a Russian made missile that brought it down by the way.

Do you have any evidence to support your claims? From reputable sources? If so, I'd love to read them.
 
Beaudreaux said:
I don't remember Russia being blamed for MH17. Maybe for giving the separatist rebels the AA missiles that brought it down, but not for actually shooting it down. It was a Russian made missile that brought it down by the way.

Do you have any evidence to support your claims? From reputable sources? If so, I'd love to read them.
Click to expand...

I would love to see the evidence for your claim, the official claim, that Russian-backed separatists shot it down with a BUK missile, but there is none. Plenty of allegations and innuendo, but no proof.

As we wander off topic....
 
Henry David said:
I would love to see the evidence for your claim, the official claim, that Russian-backed separatists shot it down with a BUK missile, but there is none. Plenty of allegations and innuendo, but no proof.

As we wander off topic....
Click to expand...

There are the radar tracks that the US logged, that I will try to find for you. Other than that, you're right, it's all just conjecture and claims of "They did it. No, they did it." And, the Russians put out some radar tracks that claimed a Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down, which they eventually backed away from.

Edit: in a quick search, here's the two competing claims"

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
 
Beaudreaux said:
Wreckage From Flight MH17 Shows Telltale Signs of Missile Strike - Bloomberg

MH17: US satellites tracked missile's path to airliner
Click to expand...


We will have to wait to see what the final conclusions are.

Personally, I am MOST suspicious of claims as to cause regarding aviation accident WHEN those claims are made while the wreckage is still smoldering. I am a big believer in NTSB type procedures. Only close analysis can help discover what actually happened.

The Pentagon CLAIMS that thus and so show up on satellite imagery, but so far, according to some sources, the only actual imagery they provided had suspicious time/date stamps.

That the Kiev government instantly confiscated and have not yet released the ATC tapes which would explain the altitude and course anomalies, is MOST telling. Already, things are being hidden from examination, as the public perception is manipulated.
 
Henry David said:
We will have to wait to see what the final conclusions are.

Personally, I am MOST suspicious of claims as to cause regarding aviation accident WHEN those claims are made while the wreckage is still smoldering. I am a big believer in NTSB type procedures. Only close analysis can help discover what actually happened.

The Pentagon CLAIMS that thus and so show up on satellite imagery, but so far, according to some sources, the only actual imagery they provided had suspicious time/date stamps.

That the Kiev government instantly confiscated and have not yet released the ATC tapes which would explain the altitude and course anomalies, is MOST telling. Already, things are being hidden from examination, as the public perception is manipulated.
Click to expand...

Being in the middle of a war zone doesn't help to lend any legitimacy to any claims at this point. I agree, it will be a while before we know the truth, and that truth is what I am waiting on as well.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Thread moved to proper location since it's not a "news" story but simply a repost of their open letter
 
Beaudreaux said:
Not all that interesting to me. There have always been those that question the truth and refuse to see the obvious. And even sometimes, band together to make public statements that are not supported by the overwhelming facts.

In fact, we have a whole subforum for these types of folks to post such claims... Conspiracy Theories

These particular folks just used a more public avenue to make the same types of claims.
Click to expand...

I have read numerous reports by Western journalists. So far, not a single one of them has seen proof of this "Russian invasion" and the reasons being given by Kiev for why that is the case are just idiotic. The fact Kiev has lied so frequently about the state of the war and about "proof" of Russian involvement is a good sign that you should not believe what they say. A bunch of governments who support Kiev in the war saying they have "intelligence" proving an invasion is not meaningful either. What we have seen are some grainy satellite photos of vehicles on a road in Ukraine. Literally, all that is going on is people saying over and over that the Russians are invading and people believing them just because people keep saying it.
 
Demon of Light said:
I have read numerous reports by Western journalists. So far, not a single one of them has seen proof of this "Russian invasion" and the reasons being given by Kiev for why that is the case are just idiotic. The fact Kiev has lied so frequently about the state of the war and about "proof" of Russian involvement is a good sign that you should not believe what they say. A bunch of governments who support Kiev in the war saying they have "intelligence" proving an invasion is not meaningful either. What we have seen are some grainy satellite photos of vehicles on a road in Ukraine. Literally, all that is going on is people saying over and over that the Russians are invading and people believing them just because people keep saying it.
Click to expand...

Fine. I see no reason to argue over something that is obvious one way to some, and obvious the other way to others. Russia denies it, the west says it's true. Same story, different decade.
 
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