Amercan's lose 80,000 jobs, Mexico Gains 65,000 - Page 2

Jambo · 04-08-08, 12:04 AM

... at my company we currently host people from India for 3 months, as they learn the jobs that they will take with them back to Bangalore... its the new industrial revolution in action...

... we are a victim of our own success... and artificial barriers to trade or a big wall won't really help... as long as there are people willing to hire based on cost, the jobs will move... and as long as there are customers who purchase based upon price, there will be people willing to hire cheaper labour...

... don't be a luddite...

obvious Child · 04-08-08, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scucca

It would not be rational to construct immigration policy (by definition a long term issue) around short term business cycle movements (even if any downturn is more severe than normal)

Unless you were deliberately trying to destroy your economy. Rogue and I feel most anti-immigration people fail to understand that for many firms they need the cheaper labor costs to stay in business. If we deny them such work, we destroy even more jobs. Furthermore, by applying the multiplier factors from economics, allowing these workers in directly and indirectly create more jobs. Plus it's an obvious fact that illegal labor is a deflationary effect on the prices of goods.

And given the list of what jobs H-1B visa are for, most of the jobs are for people with college degrees, often masters or phds. Not exactly something the US has a surplus of.

Rogue · 04-08-08, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvious Child

Unless you were deliberately trying to destroy your economy. Rogue and I feel most anti-immigration people fail to understand that for many firms they need the cheaper labor costs to stay in business. If we deny them such work, we destroy even more jobs. Furthermore, by applying the multiplier factors from economics, allowing these workers in directly and indirectly create more jobs. Plus it's an obvious fact that illegal labor is a deflationary effect on the prices of goods.

And given the list of what jobs H-1B visa are for, most of the jobs are for people with college degrees, often masters or phds. Not exactly something the US has a surplus of.

I sure have seen a lot of pro illegal open border lobby people come on board in March and April since Calderon announced his 100 million dollar campaign to soften Americans up toward to illegal Mexican invasion.

The problem is that this cheap labor isn't cheap. Just so some unscrupulous employer can exploit cheap illegal alien labor, the American taxpayer has to subsidize this cheap labor by providing social services for their families obtained with false documents, ER medical for the family, the illegals new health care plan, education for their non English speaking children, incarceration for the criminal illegals, etc., etc. No, this cheap labor isn't cheap.

It's much better to force these illegal uninvited border jumper to self deport themselves by passing tough on illegals laws like Arizona and Oklahoma did. All at little cost to the American taxpayer.

obvious Child · 04-09-08, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue

I sure have seen a lot of pro illegal open border lobby people come on board in March and April since Calderon announced his 100 million dollar campaign to soften Americans up toward to illegal Mexican invasion.

Actually I'm just poking holes in your ideology. Illegal immigrants are a mixed basket. They bring good things and they bring bad things. But to say conclusively that they are either is something rational people should not do. What we can do is look at it from an economics point of view to examine the arguments and see if they are valid.

Quote:

The problem is that this cheap labor isn't cheap. Just so some unscrupulous employer can exploit cheap illegal alien labor, the American taxpayer has to subsidize this cheap labor by providing social services for their families obtained with false documents, ER medical for the family, the illegals new health care plan, education for their non English speaking children, incarceration for the criminal illegals, etc., etc. No, this cheap labor isn't cheap.

Way to take out it out of context. Cheap labor is discussed as costs to businesses. And given that many of these illegals pay into social security and medicare/aid through withholdings, it's hard to say if they are net loss or a net benefit. And when you throw in the cost savings to the average consumer through the deflationary effect of cheap labor, it gets even harder to argue either way. Taking the savings they have and then multiplying by the spending/savings factors, the picture becomes extremely complicated. Even figuring out the total net indirect jobs supported by the cost savings is going to be difficult.

Quote:

It's much better to force these illegal uninvited border jumper to self deport themselves by passing tough on illegals laws like Arizona and Oklahoma did. All at little cost to the American taxpayer.

And you ignore the other costs and benefits.

Rational people who understand this situation and have a good economics background don't go around saying what you do. It is not a black and white picture. The math itself is highly complicated.

Rogue · 04-09-08, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obvious Child

Actually I'm just poking holes in your ideology. Illegal immigrants are a mixed basket. They bring good things and they bring bad things. But to say conclusively that they are either is something rational people should not do. What we can do is look at it from an economics point of view to examine the arguments and see if they are valid.

Way to take out it out of context. Cheap labor is discussed as costs to businesses. And given that many of these illegals pay into social security and medicare/aid through withholdings, it's hard to say if they are net loss or a net benefit. And when you throw in the cost savings to the average consumer through the deflationary effect of cheap labor, it gets even harder to argue either way. Taking the savings they have and then multiplying by the spending/savings factors, the picture becomes extremely complicated. Even figuring out the total net indirect jobs supported by the cost savings is going to be difficult.

And you ignore the other costs and benefits.

Rational people who understand this situation and have a good economics background don't go around saying what you do. It is not a black and white picture. The math itself is highly complicated.

Note: You've been thanked. Be sure to return the favor. That's the way it works so people can amass a ridiculous number of thanks, isn't it? That way people will be fooled to think the person actually said something that made sense.

I think Calderon is alarmed at the thought of all of his poverty rejects, that he dumped on the US, returning back to Mexico. So he has commissioned his PR campaign to attack the tough on illegals laws passed in Arizona and Oklahoma. Using fear mongering tactics they are to point out the supposedly dire consequences of actually enforcing the law.

I think Calderon needs to start planning on what he's going to do with these Mexican rejects as they return back to Mexico. He could have better spent his 100 million dollars towards programs to help these rejects once they get back into Mexico, couldn't he?

obvious Child · 04-09-08, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue

Note: You've been thanked. Be sure to return the favor. That's the way it works so people can amass a ridiculous number of thanks, isn't it? That way people will be fooled to think the person actually said something that made sense.

I don't really understand why this board even has that. Past experience tells me such ratings are generally a bad thing.

Quote:

I think Calderon is alarmed at the thought of all of his poverty rejects, that he dumped on the US, returning back to Mexico. So he has commissioned his PR campaign to attack the tough on illegals laws passed in Arizona and Oklahoma. Using fear mongering tactics they are to point out the supposedly dire consequences of actually enforcing the law.

Which amusingly, isn't all that different from Americans who argue that illegals are overall bad...

Quote:

I think Calderon needs to start planning on what he's going to do with these Mexican rejects as they return back to Mexico. He could have better spent his 100 million dollars towards programs to help these rejects once they get back into Mexico, couldn't he?

And we could have spent our border money on improving opportunities in Mexico.

The problem will not be solved with walls and barriers. It will be solved when Mexicans have good opportunities in Mexico, essentially when Mexico starts bitching about large amounts of illegals from South America. Why this is so damn hard for people to understand is beyond my understanding.

donsutherland1 · 04-17-08, 09:49 AM

To put the H-1B issue into even clearer focus, today CNN reported:

There are plenty of experienced system designers in Europe, but Axiom can't hire them without an H-1B visa, which allows highly skilled foreign nationals to work in the U.S. The U.S. Customs and Immigration Service (USCIS) recently concluded a five-day, H-1B application period for fiscal year 2009 (which begins October 1)...

Demand for H-1B visas is rising thanks to a shortage of American citizens with training in the hard sciences, mathematics and computer science. The number of U.S. college students graduating with computer science degrees this year has declined by 43% since 2004, according to a new study by the Computing Research Association, an advocacy group based in Washington, D.C.

The referenced study can be found at: CRA Bulletin » CRA Taulbee Survey

Shortages of adequately skilled workers are popping up in areas of the U.S. where economic growth has been stronger in recent years, even as some softening has commenced, e.g., the Dallas-Fort Worth area. For example, the most recent release of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank's Beige Book noted:

The Eleventh District economic expansion softened further in March and early April. Numerous contacts who do business nationally say growth in Texas is outperforming the rest of the country. Factory production declined, and there were a few reports of temporary and permanent plant closings. Service sector growth was mixed and generally weaker than reported in the last Beige Book. Retail sales were below expectations. Construction and real estate markets continued to soften. Financial-service firms are cautious about lending, but competition remained stiff for deposits and quality loans. Energy activity was still strong. Agricultural conditions improved...

There is still a shortage of skilled workers, particularly higher skilled positions, such as mid-level executives and experienced engineers. Some contacts say tighter enforcement of immigration laws has led to scattered farm labor shortages, notably for harvesting vegetables and fruit.