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On illegals, taxes, and Social Security

Dittohead not!

Dittohead not!

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Are the illegals really costing us billions?


[FONT=&quot]It works like this: Many immigrants who aren’t authorized to work in the United States buy fake Social Security cards and present them to their employers, who either don’t know they are fake or don’t look too closely. When the employer submits a W-2 form and a tax payment on those workers’ behalf to the Social Security Administration, the federal government holds onto those payroll taxes, even if the Social Security number isn’t linked to anyone on file. And then, a large chunk of that money ends up in the Social Security trust funds, from which retirement benefits are doled out to aging Americans.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Social Security system has grown increasingly reliant on this stream of revenue, particularly as aging Baby Boomers start to retire. [/FONT]
Click to expand...

and, if you're interested in reading more, there's some thought provoking information about property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and so on, and the incentive for illegals to pay taxes in the US:

[h=1]The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes[/h]
 
Dittohead not! said:
Are the illegals really costing us billions?
Click to expand...

No.

“We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,”
 
SO they are breaking our immigration laws and committing identity theft

what it means is that someone else is getting screwed over and might not know it.

Sorry, But Illegal Aliens Cost The U.S. Plenty | Stock News & Stock Market Analysis - IBD
however yea no whoever wrote that didn't really do their homework.

Illegal immigrants in fact absorb far more in benefits than they contribute. The Heritage Foundation in 2013 found that illegals contribute an average of $10,000 in total taxes (federal and payroll as well as local taxes) but use almost $24,000 in welfare and services, creating a net $14,000 per capita gain per illegal worker.

In a more recent study where I looked at welfare use only (not taxes or other expense) using the much more accurate Survey of Income and Program Participation, I found that 62% of households headed by illegal immigrants used at least one major welfare program
 
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Dittohead not! said:
Are the illegals really costing us billions?




and, if you're interested in reading more, there's some thought provoking information about property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and so on, and the incentive for illegals to pay taxes in the US:

[h=1]The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes[/h]
Click to expand...


So where in this extremely poorly researched article does it reveal how illegal set up the withholding on their fake identities?

From decades of experience, I can report one of the first flashing yellow lights that an employee may be illegal is the number of dependents a worker claims on their W-4.

This means they drastically reduce the withholding for state and federal taxes.

This article is so far from the truth it should be used as an example of what fraud and deceit looks like.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Are the illegals really costing us billions?




and, if you're interested in reading more, there's some thought provoking information about property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and so on, and the incentive for illegals to pay taxes in the US:

[h=1]The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes[/h]
Click to expand...

The question of illegals is less one of whether they cost us anything. It is more about how to remove a massively illegal situation that must destroy the attitudes of so many of the next generation to our country. We are living in a land, where a largish segment of the population is living in what must be considered a failed legal system.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Are the illegals really costing us billions?




and, if you're interested in reading more, there's some thought provoking information about property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and so on, and the incentive for illegals to pay taxes in the US:

[h=1]The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes[/h]
Click to expand...

TheDemSocialist said:
No.

“We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,”
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So you guys figure it's fine to **** over someone who is here to work as long as it means more taxes in the kitty? Yeah, I guess that is a pretty progressive point of view.

How about this? How about the illegal alien goes back home and an American takes that job? How about the American not only pays in the same taxes but eventually gets a benefit from it too and nobody gets ****ed over?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
No.

“We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,”
Click to expand...

Well you have probably heard the quip from Mark Twain: There are lies,damned lies and then statistics.

This area seems like a clear case. My sense is there is no clear cut answer. That being said many non-political people who have looked into this usually say that it depends on what type of immigrants (both legal and illegal)we are talking about. A person who already is highly educated and migrates into the U.S. will probably be a net plus by adding to GDP,no education costs etc. The opposite is true of uneducated, unskilled workers.
 
Lutherf said:
So you guys figure it's fine to **** over someone who is here to work as long as it means more taxes in the kitty? Yeah, I guess that is a pretty progressive point of view.

How about this? How about the illegal alien goes back home and an American takes that job? How about the American not only pays in the same taxes but eventually gets a benefit from it too and nobody gets ****ed over?
Click to expand...

they also fail to mention the billions of dollars which leave the U.S. because of illegals
 
Lutherf said:
So you guys figure it's fine to **** over someone who is here to work as long as it means more taxes in the kitty? Yeah, I guess that is a pretty progressive point of view.

How about this? How about the illegal alien goes back home and an American takes that job? How about the American not only pays in the same taxes but eventually gets a benefit from it too and nobody gets ****ed over?
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Simply stating what is found in the article.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Are the illegals really costing us billions?




and, if you're interested in reading more, there's some thought provoking information about property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, and so on, and the incentive for illegals to pay taxes in the US:

[h=1]The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes[/h]
Click to expand...

!. Illegals work for substandard wages.How are they paying federal income taxes when almost 50% of American households do not?

2.Many illegals work under the table meaning no taxes are collected.

3.Many illegals work as contract labor,meaning the employer does not take out taxes.

4.If illegals are allegedly are using fraudulent social security cards then how does anyone actually know how much of and if any taxes are collected from illegals basically committing identity fraud?

5.Seeing how illegals work for substandard wages then that means they are taking in more than what they pay in taxes.

6.Seeing how illegals help keep down wages and take jobs from Americans by working for substandard wages then that means not only are those illegals taking in more in tax payer funded services than what they pay for in taxes. That means all those Americans whose wages got depressed or out work as a result of illegals working for substandard wages are also using tax payer funded services.
 
Even if they are, they are breaking the law and throwing off the numbers.

It's like encouraging auto theft to help the auto industry.
 
ocean515 said:
So where in this extremely poorly researched article does it reveal how illegal set up the withholding on their fake identities?

From decades of experience, I can report one of the first flashing yellow lights that an employee may be illegal is the number of dependents a worker claims on their W-4.

This means they drastically reduce the withholding for state and federal taxes.

This article is so far from the truth it should be used as an example of what fraud and deceit looks like.
Click to expand...

The number of dependents claimed doesn't affect payroll taxes. Most of the illegals are in jobs that don't pay enough to require income taxes anyway.
 
Lutherf said:
So you guys figure it's fine to **** over someone who is here to work as long as it means more taxes in the kitty? Yeah, I guess that is a pretty progressive point of view.

How about this? How about the illegal alien goes back home and an American takes that job? How about the American not only pays in the same taxes but eventually gets a benefit from it too and nobody gets ****ed over?
Click to expand...

So, now the illegals are getting screwed, since they can't benefit from the SS and Medicare taxes they pay. I think that's a good point.

But we can't argue, at the same time, that they're a drain on our taxes can we?
 
Master PO said:
they also fail to mention the billions of dollars which leave the U.S. because of illegals
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Yes, they do tend to send money back home to family.

Is that different from sending money to China by buying goods made there?
 
jamesrage said:
!. Illegals work for substandard wages.How are they paying federal income taxes when almost 50% of American households do not?

2.Many illegals work under the table meaning no taxes are collected.

3.Many illegals work as contract labor,meaning the employer does not take out taxes.

4.If illegals are allegedly are using fraudulent social security cards then how does anyone actually know how much of and if any taxes are collected from illegals basically committing identity fraud?

5.Seeing how illegals work for substandard wages then that means they are taking in more than what they pay in taxes.

6.Seeing how illegals help keep down wages and take jobs from Americans by working for substandard wages then that means not only are those illegals taking in more in tax payer funded services than what they pay for in taxes. That means all those Americans whose wages got depressed or out work as a result of illegals working for substandard wages are also using tax payer funded services.
Click to expand...

1. Yes, that's the norm. They do, however, pay payroll and other taxes.
2. Which means the employer is the one cheating once again.
3. Which means the person doing the contract is the one screwing the taxpayers.
4. That's discussed at some length in the article.
5. Aren't we all taking in more than we pay in taxes? How can we pay more than 100%?
6. Now you have a point. All those illegals working for substandard wages are depressing the wages of Americans.
If we had a functioning Congress, perhaps we could address that issue.
 
Dittohead not! said:
The number of dependents claimed doesn't affect payroll taxes. Most of the illegals are in jobs that don't pay enough to require income taxes anyway.
Click to expand...

I understand that. However your link title is "The Truth about Illegals and Taxes". That title doesn't distinguish between type of taxes.

I'm speaking of taxes in general, and your assumption is incorrect about not being paid enough to avoid income taxes. Show me a paycheck from a full time job that doesn't have any income taxes withheld without ramping up the number of dependents to limit withholding.

Also, the poorly researched article does not address the 6.2% fraudulent contribution the employer has to make. That is no cost to a business?

Illegal aliens suck well into the 100 billions out of the economy with very little in return for the cost. They decimate economic opportunity in the poorest legal communities, which adds 10's of billions to public assistance costs.

The Atlantic article is a dismal failure of excuse and false narratives.
 
Dittohead not! said:
So, now the illegals are getting screwed, since they can't benefit from the SS and Medicare taxes they pay. I think that's a good point.

But we can't argue, at the same time, that they're a drain on our taxes can we?
Click to expand...

Really? Lots and lots of illegals don't bother to get a fake green card. They just work under the table and pay no tax on that money. On top of that their employers don't have them on payroll so no payroll taxes are being withheld either.
 
ocean515 said:
1 I understand that. However your link title is "The Truth about Illegals and Taxes". That title doesn't distinguish between type of taxes.

2. I'm speaking of taxes in general, and your assumption is incorrect about not being paid enough to avoid income taxes. Show me a paycheck from a full time job that doesn't have any income taxes withheld without ramping up the number of dependents to limit withholding.
3.
Also, the poorly researched article does not address the 6.2% fraudulent contribution the employer has to make. That is no cost to a business?

4. Illegal aliens suck well into the 100 billions out of the economy with very little in return for the cost. They decimate economic opportunity in the poorest legal communities, which adds 10's of billions to public assistance costs.

5. The Atlantic article is a dismal failure of excuse and false narratives.
Click to expand...

1. It mentions several types of taxes.
2. There's a difference between having taxes withheld and owing income taxes. The likelihood is the illegals have income taxes withheld, but never file and so never get their returns.
3. The fraud is in hiring illegals in the first place. If the employer hired Americans or legal immigrants, he'd still have to pay that 6.2%
4. That's your opinion, but you offer no substance to support it.
5. See #4.
 
Lutherf said:
Really? Lots and lots of illegals don't bother to get a fake green card. They just work under the table and pay no tax on that money. On top of that their employers don't have them on payroll so no payroll taxes are being withheld either.
Click to expand...

When that's the case, it is the employer who is defrauding the taxpayers. It's time to fine the employers and not blame the illegals for the problem.
 
Dittohead not! said:
and there is no transfer of wealth to purchase those products?
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one is the buying of products to sell conducting commerce, whether you like china or not

the other is the transfer of money straight out of america.

so for anyone to say that illegals pay taxes, well of course they do when they engage in commerce, but to say their actions are only positive and there is no negative is ridiculous.
 
Dittohead not! said:
1. It mentions several types of taxes.
2. There's a difference between having taxes withheld and owing income taxes. The likelihood is the illegals have income taxes withheld, but never file and so never get their returns.
3. The fraud is in hiring illegals in the first place. If the employer hired Americans or legal immigrants, he'd still have to pay that 6.2%
4. That's your opinion, but you offer no substance to support it.
5. See #4.
Click to expand...

Illegals have no intention of filing tax returns, that is the reason for the high levels of dependents claimed on their W-4's. They have learned that excessive numbers draws scrutiny, and the IRS will require documentation to support the claim.

I fully support draconian penalties against any employer who knowingly hires illegal aliens. Mandatory jail terms served consecutively for each conviction.

That being said, business owners are not ICE. They are should not be required to investigate documents provided by employees that appear legal.

Usually the first hint one of my employees is not who they have said they are comes in a notice from SS questioning the information they provided. Told they need to clear up the problem, they always disappear. That results in a major cost to business, again not calculated in any of these pathetic articles and reports.

As to #4, my opinion?

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers (2013)

This information is commonly known. I apologize for assuming you were up to par on it. Of course the information is way out of date, and doesn't take into account the $10's of billions added to these costs in recent years as liberal/socialist progressives further open the flood gates to illegal aliens.
 
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