Someone explain this to me...

jesushlincoln · 11-19-07, 09:39 PM

We have a big thing about "illegal immigration" these days, obviously. People sure do hate those damned Mexicans!

I want someone to tell me why white people coming to America, killing Indians with smallpox blankets and so forth, as well as almost going to war with Great Britain over the Oregon Country as well as stealing about half Mexico's land in the 1840's is all A-OK, but Jose Gonzales can't come up here to find a better job?

Magnvs I · 11-19-07, 09:46 PM

Don't you know? Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that America could rule the world! It's not oppression when we're doing it! I thought you understood this.

1069 · 11-19-07, 10:12 PM

I'm gonna guess that none of the nationalists are willing to touch this.
On the surface of it, I guess, the answer is simply, "White people did it because they could."
In the final analysis, it's not so much about what's "right" (morality's subjective) as what's possible.

There were exponentially fewer people on the planet, back when Europeans first colonized America. The competition for land and natural resources was less fierce than it is today.
Many of our ancestors were given land, for free. The mexican government, for instance, gave my family massive tracts of land back in the 1800s when Texas was still part of Mexico, simply because they wanted Texas colonized and cultivated- civilized- and most Mexicans didn't care to live here (indians were a problem) even if their government paid them to do so, so instead the mexican government offered free land grants to anglo settlers.
Ironic, in light of the situation today, not even 200 years later.
Something similar happened when the Western part of the US was still wild; the US government gave settlers free land grants out west. They could just move out there and build a homestead and start farming or ranching or whatever.

But all the land in the US is owned now; there's no more free land.
There's probably not much un-owned land left in the entire world, actually. And there are not, according to many Americans, enough resources here for us to allow immigrants to come in and work. Which seems preposterous to me; it's obvious the US is richer than Croesus.
But I guess we just don't like to share.
We didn't get where we are today by being generous.

jesushlincoln · 11-19-07, 10:19 PM

That would make sense, except today more or less nobody other than the government and large corporations owns extremely large tracts of land. I doubt some random Mexican guy wants to come here to become the greatest agricultural giant America has ever seen.

We experienced exponential growth due to influx of immigrants in the 1800's. Of course, back then, the locals didn't care much for it either. All the dirty "micks" and "wops" movin' in, takin' our jobs... right? Nowadays you don't see much in the way of prejudice against Irish-Americans, or German-Americans, or Italian-Americans. Even old people don't hate them.

Lerxst · 11-20-07, 12:57 AM

This is the moral dilemma that I think about because much of my family is Quapaw Inidan. I have also been studying the atrocities this young nation committed against the native Americans in the name of Manifest Destiny and such.

Simply look at the hypocrisy involved from less than a hundred years ago. We used to revel in our cultural difference and this land was a melting pot. Now it's all about "this land is OURS...get the **** out unless you are invited you FOREIGNER! I don't give a **** what we did to those who were here before us, it's ours now and we make the rules!"

Brutal, but the reality of the situation. I don't agree with it.

DudleySmith · 11-20-07, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesushlincoln

We have a big thing about "illegal immigration" these days, obviously. People sure do hate those damned Mexicans!

I want someone to tell me why white people coming to America, killing Indians with smallpox blankets and so forth,

How many did Whitey kill with smallpox blankets, exactly? ... Of course, the answer is ... zero. But don't let actual history stop you from raving about it as if it were true.

Quote:

as well as almost going to war with Great Britain over the Oregon Country as well as stealing about half Mexico's land in the 1840's

Nobody 'stole about half of Mexico's land'. Anybody with even the slightest clue would know this. What they claimed was sovereignity over former Spanish land claims, which would have made them equally 'entitled' to Cuba and the Phillipines, i.e. they were full of sh-t. There were more French in those areas purported to be 'stolen' than anybody who even remotely considered themselves 'Mexicans'.

Quote:

is all A-OK, but Jose Gonzales can't come up here to find a better job?

All 'Jose' has to do is to apply for citizenship legally, rather than willingly participate in organized criminal activity with labor racketeers and crooked 'businessmen'.

hackster · 11-20-07, 09:00 AM

the killing of the indians was no more "right" than slave trading, hitler's genocide, the spanish inquisition, etc., etc...

we can go back as far as you want to go in history- man's inhumanity to man.

but, if we want to start being a "lawful" world, we have to start... somewhere.

the key word, i think i saw it in an earlier post- is "illegal". i think most of us, what some would call "racists" or xenophobes", have no problem with LEGAL immigration.

anyone, not just from mexico, but from ANY country, has no more right to come here and set up a life free from the the responsibilities of citizenship, than i do to go to any other country and do the same.

a few years ago, i spent a few weeks in england and scotland. i would have considered moving to scotland, i loved it there so much... however, one does not just "move"... there are laws about temporary and permanent stays there, as much, if not MORE stringent than our laws to come and live in this country.

past history cannot be erased or justified. but if you want to use THAT for the basis of your open borders argument... then, what- anarchy... no borders at all, then?

DudleySmith · 11-20-07, 09:15 AM

A lot of the smaller tribes wouldn't be here today if not for those nasty Euros protecting them from larger tribes. The whole bogus claim of 'genocide' is wildly popular, though, especially among the racists who really hate whites.

Rogue · 11-20-07, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffMerriman

This is the moral dilemma that I think about because much of my family is Quapaw Inidan. I have also been studying the atrocities this young nation committed against the native Americans in the name of Manifest Destiny and such.

Simply look at the hypocrisy involved from less than a hundred years ago. We used to revel in our cultural difference and this land was a melting pot. Now it's all about "this land is OURS...get the **** out unless you are invited you FOREIGNER! I don't give a **** what we did to those who were here before us, it's ours now and we make the rules!"

Brutal, but the reality of the situation. I don't agree with it.

let us not forget that we let in TWO MILLION LEGAL IMMIGRANTS a year into this country. MORE THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. That's about all that we can reasonably assimilate in a year. Doesn't that still make us a melting pot? These immigrants WERE qualified and WERE invited into this country though.

I'm curious. What countries of the world don't have a policy of "this land is ours, get the **** out unless you were invited"? Can you name even one?

Cephus · 11-20-07, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesushlincoln

We have a big thing about "illegal immigration" these days, obviously. People sure do hate those damned Mexicans!

No, but people sure do hate lawbreakers. Unfortunately, we have people like you who are out jousting at strawmen and purposely lying, but that's the best your pathetic kind can do.

Quote:

I want someone to tell me why white people coming to America, killing Indians with smallpox blankets and so forth, as well as almost going to war with Great Britain over the Oregon Country as well as stealing about half Mexico's land in the 1840's is all A-OK, but Jose Gonzales can't come up here to find a better job?

Like it or not, what happened in the past was not against the law. Jose (or anyone else, even not those holding to the racist strawman you're trying to spread) who comes to the U.S. illegally does not deserve a better job. It's not our job to employ the planet. Maybe they should try staying home and fixing their own ****ed up countries so they wouldn't have to come here for a better job.