How can anyone be against a Border Fence.

US Conservative said:

Yes it does-I was talking about illegals. :2wave:

Click to expand...

With or without driver's licenses.....LOL.....

Half of our illegals came here legally. Ain't no fence stopping a United Flight from China.

disneydude said:

Your own words:



Silly statement....displaced feigned outrage....nothing more.

Click to expand...

disneydude said:

Absolutely but it has nothing to do with "Drunk illegal aliens without driver licenses". As if "Drunk illegal aliens WITH drivers licenses" never drive drunk or "Drunk American citizens WITH or WITHOUT drivers licenses" never drive drunk and kill people. It was just a stupid throw away line without any real bearing to the argument other than just to throw it out there.

Click to expand...

Again...I said nothing about all drunk driving accidents...only people getting killed by drunk illegal aliens who don't have driver's licenses. An effective fence could stop some of this:

On June 10, 2012, Aileen Smith and her husband Zach were on the way from Colorado Springs to San Diego for their baby shower — even though it was three months before her due date of September 5, they had already named their unborn son Demetri.

But when Ramon Hernandez sped onto Interstate 25 and crashed into their car, he shattered the Smith family forever. Aileen was taken to Christus St. Vincent Regional Medical Center in Santa Fe, where doctors performed a C-section in an attempt to save the baby. The injuries to the unborn child were too severe, however; he died from massive head injuries just minutes after being delivered. The Smiths never saw him alive. Aileen recalled, “There was nothing they could do. I woke up from surgery and was reaching out asking for my son, and the nurse leaned over and told me that he had passed.” Aileen held him briefly, as did her husband Zach, saying a prayer for Demetri before handing his little body over to the Office of the Medical Investigator. “We buried Demetri two days before my 26th birthday,” she said. “It’s just an incredibly lonely feeling,” Aileen explained, “You know, you can feel so supported by all your friends and family, and yet just feel so alone inside because that thing you were hoping for is gone.”

A state police dashcam video recorded the tragic scene of the accident. It was a car crash that officials said could have been prevented. Court records show Ramon Hernandez had four prior DWI convictions. Hernandez admitted he had had “a few beers” when he plowed into pregnant Aileen Smith’s car. Investigators said Hernandez had not had a driver’s license for more than a decade.

Ramon Hernandez is also an illegal alien.
The Social Contract - Illegal Aliens: Taking America on a Deadly and Expensive Ride

Click to expand...

Police say Nicolas Guaman, an undocumented immigrant from Ecuador, was driving drunk with his son in the car when, near the corner of Fayette and Congress, he hit and killed 23-year-old Matthew Denice, a recent college graduate who was riding his motorcycle home.

It was the kind of summer evening when folks were out barbecuing on the lawn, and there were plenty of witnesses.

It’s unclear how many times Denice was struck, but it’s clear Guaman never bothered to stop and check. He drove off from the scene.

Now, nearly three years after the accident, Guaman goes on trial Wednesday morning in Worcester Superior Court. He faces seven charges: murder, manslaughter by motor vehicle, motor vehicle homicide while under the influence of alcohol and negligent operation, reckless endangerment of a child, leaving the scene of an accident causing death, failure to stop for a police officer and unlicensed operation of a motor vehicle.

Fatal Milford Crash Remains A Lightning Rod For Immigration Policy | WBUR

Click to expand...

And in my own neck of the woods...

An undocumented immigrant with no license and three convictions for drunk driving is accused in a crash that killed a teenager early Monday.

Aurora police said Ever Olivos-Gutierrez, 40, of Aurora, remains in a local hospital for injuries he received in the T-bone crash on March 24.

A Ford Expedition collided with the Chevy Camaro Juan Carlos Dominguez-Palomino was driving at Dayton Street at East Colfax Avenue at about 12:15 a.m.

Police suspect the driver of the SUV -- identified as Olivos-Gutierrez -- may have been going more than double the speed limit on Colfax when he ran red light and slammed into the Camaro, killing 17-year-old Dominguez-Palomino.

Driver suspected in fatal Aurora crash has history of DUI and is an undocumented immigrant - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com

Click to expand...

And that's just a few of the thousands who are killed by drunk illegal aliens who don't have driver's licenses.

Declan said:

Half of our illegals came here legally. Ain't no fence stopping a United Flight from China.

Click to expand...

Let's start with the fence. We can beef up visa violations after that.

Mycroft said:

Let's start with the fence. We can beef up visa violations after that.

Click to expand...

We should build a dome--solves illegal immigration and global warming all at once.

Declan said:

We should build a dome--solves illegal immigration and global warming all at once.

Click to expand...

Sure. Good idea. You should get started on that.

In the meantime, the rest of us can build that fence.

Mycroft said:

Sure. Good idea. You should get started on that.

In the meantime, the rest of us can build that fence.

Click to expand...

Sorry, it will get in the way of the edges of my dome.

Mycroft said:

Again...I said nothing about all drunk driving accidents...only people getting killed by drunk illegal aliens who don't have driver's licenses. An effective fence could stop some of this:

Click to expand...

Again....just silly rhetoric. You could stop everyone from driving and that would solve all drunk driving deaths. You could ban people from driving on Saturdays and that would solve some of the drunk driving deaths.

You could prohibit green haired Irish guys without licenses from driving every other Friday of the month...and that would solve some drunk driving deaths. The point is....your argument is just rhetoric thrown into the mix that really has nothing to do with anything. It was a throw away argument thrown in because you had nothing more to say.

disneydude said:

Again....just silly rhetoric. You could stop everyone from driving and that would solve all drunk driving deaths. You could ban people from driving on Saturdays and that would solve some of the drunk driving deaths.

You could prohibit green haired Irish guys without licenses from driving every other Friday of the month...and that would solve some drunk driving deaths. The point is....your argument is just rhetoric thrown into the mix that really has nothing to do with anything. It was a throw away argument thrown in because you had nothing more to say.

Click to expand...

Or...you could actively follow current law...create the border security the law calls for...and have the added benefit of reducing drunk driving deaths by illegal aliens.

Okay.

Let it be understood that you don't think a border fence is a good idea. That you do not consider our border security worth it...that you don't even consider the added benefit of saving thousands of lives of innocent American citizens worth it.

And that you consider any mention of benefits to a border fence to be nothing more than "silly rhetoric"..."a throw away argument".

Mycroft said:

Or...you could actively follow current law...create the border security the law calls for...and have the added benefit of reducing drunk driving deaths by illegal aliens.

Okay.

Let it be understood that you don't think a border fence is a good idea. That you do not consider our border security worth it...that you don't even consider the added benefit of saving thousands of lives of innocent American citizens worth it.

And that you consider any mention of benefits to a border fence to be nothing more than "silly rhetoric"..."a throw away argument".

Click to expand...

The benefits are outweighed by the costs. Those who willingly give up their liberty for a false sense of security deserve neither. Some of us prefer not to be fenced in our country like China. You might, but I think most people in this country would not.

disneydude said:

The benefits are outweighed by the costs. Those who willingly give up their liberty for a false sense of security deserve neither. Some of us prefer not to be fenced in our country like China. You might, but I think most people in this country would not.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that.

How is any American giving up their liberty by constructing a fence to keep people from entering illegally? Is that fence going to prevent YOU from leaving the country?

And, it's already been shown that the cost benefits are on the side of the fence. From the OP:

It would be as cheap as a one time cost of $60,000,000,000 While the cost of illegal immigration cost this nation at least $110,000,000,000 a year not to mention the human cost in the way of suppressed wages, destroyed neighborhoods, ruined schools and people who were victims of crimes committed by illegal immigrates..

Click to expand...

Mycroft said:

Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that.

How is any American giving up their liberty by constructing a fence to keep people from entering illegally? Is that fence going to prevent YOU from leaving the country?

And, it's already been shown that the cost benefits are on the side of the fence. From the OP:

Click to expand...

A fence that "keeps others out" also keeps people in. Sorry...but my freedoms and liberty mean more to me that constructing a false sense of security

disneydude said:

A fence that "keeps others out" also keeps people in. Sorry...but my freedoms and liberty mean more to me that constructing a false sense of security

Click to expand...

You haven't explained "how" such a fence would keep people in...how it will interfere with your liberty. Why haven't you? That is what I asked you.

Mycroft said:

Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that.

How is any American giving up their liberty by constructing a fence to keep people from entering illegally? Is that fence going to prevent YOU from leaving the country?

And, it's already been shown that the cost benefits are on the side of the fence. From the OP:

Click to expand...

"...cost of illegal immigration cost this nation at least $110,000,000,000 a year"
110 Billion a year? Where do those numbers come from?

Grand Mal said:

"...cost of illegal immigration cost this nation at least $110,000,000,000 a year"
110 Billion a year? Where do those numbers come from?

Click to expand...

Well...that number was given in the OP with no references, so I did a quick search and found this report from 2010 (revised in 2011):

This report estimates the annual costs of illegal immigration at the federal, state and local level to be about $113 billion; nearly $29 billion at the federal level and $84 billion at the state and local level.

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on U.S. Taxpayers (2010)

Click to expand...

I think it's reasonable to expect that number to be higher now, in 2015, but I don't know for sure.

Mycroft said:

Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that.

How is any American giving up their liberty by constructing a fence to keep people from entering illegally? Is that fence going to prevent YOU from leaving the country?

And, it's already been shown that the cost benefits are on the side of the fence. From the OP:

Click to expand...

The OP figures had a fence costing about 1.3 million per mile. An actual section of fence built in the city of San Diego, California cost 1 million dollars per mile for 15 miles. That was years ago in a well supplied city.

Have you ever been to the border in Az or Texas? Have seen the land out there? Not to mention that most all that land down along the border is private property. It does not belong to the US government. You're talking about taking good chunks of people's farm and ranches.

Here in Texas, property owners complained because the US Government built the fence up to a 1\4 mile from the border. Making sections of their property inaccessible.

There are a lot of problems in building a 2200 mile fence that have not yet been solved.

Just note this...just building a fence does not address the 12 million illegal aliens here now. Spending 1 trillion dollars on a fence does not change the money the OP claims is spent on illegal aliens.

1750Texan said:

The OP figures had a fence costing about 1.3 million per mile. An actual section of fence built in the city of San Diego, California cost 1 million dollars per mile for 15 miles. That was years ago in a well supplied city.

Have you ever been to the border in Az or Texas? Have seen the land out there? Not to mention that most all that land down along the border is private property. It does not belong to the US government. You're talking about taking good chunks of people's farm and ranches.

Here in Texas, property owners complained because the US Government built the fence up to a 1\4 mile from the border. Making sections of their property inaccessible.

There are a lot of problems in building a 2200 mile fence that have not yet been solved.

Just note this...just building a fence does not address the 12 million illegal aliens here now. Spending 1 trillion dollars on a fence does not change the money the OP claims is spent on illegal aliens.

Click to expand...

Oh...I'm not dogmatic over the construction of the fence. In fact, I don't think there really has to be an elaborate fence...with barbed wire, etc...in a lot of places. I think using technology can address some of the issues you raise. In any case, the details can be sorted out and the problems can be dealt with...if the will to deal with the problem exists. In other words, the expectation of problems is not a very good reason to just do nothing.

And yes...the illegal aliens who are here already need to be dealt with, but that's a separate issue to me. If you have a leaky boat that's taking on water, the best thing to do is to make fixing the leak your priority. That trillion will be money well-spent in dealing with the over-all problem of illegal immigration.

Mycroft said:

Oh...I'm not dogmatic over the construction of the fence. In fact, I don't think there really has to be an elaborate fence...with barbed wire, etc...in a lot of places. I think using technology can address some of the issues you raise. In any case, the details can be sorted out and the problems can be dealt with...if the will to deal with the problem exists. In other words, the expectation of problems is not a very good reason to just do nothing.

And yes...the illegal aliens who are here already need to be dealt with, but that's a separate issue to me. If you have a leaky boat that's taking on water, the best thing to do is to make fixing the leak your priority. That trillion will be money well-spent in dealing with the over-all problem of illegal immigration.

Click to expand...

My point is that you may be able to plug some of the holes in your leaky boat...but you're still 300 miles from shore.

1750Texan said:

My point is that you may be able to plug some of the holes in your leaky boat...but you're still 300 miles from shore.

Click to expand...

So...does that make you want to do nothing?

disneydude said:

Some of us don't want to live like China.....fenced in our country.

Click to expand...

Coming for the people who support the Government regulating everything, everyone does?

Coming form people who support the Government tell everyone where to live, who may live where?

Coming from people who support the Government spying on everyone?

Coming from people who support the Government controlling education?

Coming from people who support the Government rewarding law breakers and reward hard workers and innovators?

Coming from people who support the Government stealing from one group and giving to another in the name of "fairness" or "justice" but is really just a vote buying scam?

Coming from people who support the Government using threats and intimation and force against that the state and its officials do not like or are a "threat" it it?

Coming from people who support the Government disarm the people in order to abuse them at will with absolutely immunity from retaliation?

Funny, you support everything China is and does.

They also do not have a fence, why? They just shoot them as they cross.

disneydude said:

Same could be said for China. Sorry....I don't need to be fenced in my own country. If your post wasn't ridiculous enough already I love how you proved it by your final comment....as if "Drunk illegal aliens without driver's licenses" are the cause of all of our drunk driving fatalities....LOL.....too funny.

Click to expand...

Victims of Illegal Aliens Memorial

Home

National Day of Remembrance for Those Killed by Illegal Aliens | Center for Immigration Studies

Index

Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily

When Illegals Kill Cops | FrontPage Magazine

AmericanSpartan said:

Coming for the people who support the Government regulating everything, everyone does?

Coming form people who support the Government tell everyone where to live, who may live where?

Coming from people who support the Government spying on everyone?

Coming from people who support the Government controlling education?

Coming from people who support the Government rewarding law breakers and reward hard workers and innovators?

Coming from people who support the Government stealing from one group and giving to another in the name of "fairness" or "justice" but is really just a vote buying scam?

Coming from people who support the Government using threats and intimation and force against that the state and its officials do not like or are a "threat" it it?

Coming from people who support the Government disarm the people in order to abuse them at will with absolutely immunity from retaliation?

Funny, you support everything China is and does.

They also do not have a fence, why? They just shoot them as they cross.

Click to expand...

LOL....you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. I don't support any of those things. Sorry Charlie.

disneydude said:

Again....just silly rhetoric. You could stop everyone from driving and that would solve all drunk driving deaths. You could ban people from driving on Saturdays and that would solve some of the drunk driving deaths.

You could prohibit green haired Irish guys without licenses from driving every other Friday of the month...and that would solve some drunk driving deaths. The point is....your argument is just rhetoric thrown into the mix that really has nothing to do with anything. It was a throw away argument thrown in because you had nothing more to say.

Click to expand...

Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver, 47


And

Deputy Michael Davis, 42

Son, Friend & Placer County Investigator, CA

Allegedly killed by

Luis Enrique Monroy-Bracamonte, 34

Luis Enrique Monroy-Bracamonte, 34, a previously twice deported illegal alien from Mexico has been arrested for the October 24, 2014 shooting murder of Sacramento County Deputy Daniel Oliver in California.

Monroy-Bracamonte and his wife, Janelle Marquez Monroy, 38, who had been living in Salt Lake City, Utah, allegedly went on a crime spree that included car jacking, attempted murder, and murder.

Deputy Oliver was allegedly shot by Monroy-Bracamonte after Oliver stopped to investigate Monroy-Bracamonte's suspicious vehicle at a Motel 6 parking lot. As Oliver approached the vehicle, Monroy-Bracamonte pulled a weapon and fired at Oliver, killing him and wounding his partner.

The 14-count criminal complaint charging Monroy-Bracamonte includes charges related to Deputy Oliver's murder, shooting of motorist and carjacking victim Anthony Davis, the murder of a Placer County deputy, wounding of another deputy, among other weapons charges.

Mexican national Monroy-Bracamonte was previously convicted in Arizona for selling illegal narcotics in 1997and subsequently deported. He then reentered the U.S. at some point and was deported a second time in 2001. At some point he illegally returned to the U.S. for a third time and was arrested in West Valley City Utah for hit and run but was apparently not deported back to Mexico.

Deputy Oliver was married and has two children. He was with the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department for 15 years.

Zane Thurber, 3



Son, brother, and child

Allegedly killed by

Manuel de Jesus Guinea, 45

Manuel de Jesus Guinea, 45, an alleged illegal alien from El Salvador, was arrested and charged with vehicular homicide and DUI in the death of 3-year-old Zane Thurber.

Lauren Bump, 24


Daughter, student, friend

Allegedly murdered by

Christian Bautista, 29

Christian Bautista, an illegal alien has been arrested for the brutal stabbing murder of 24-year-old Lauren Bump. Bump's body was found in a pool of blood on a trail in the O.P. Schnabel Park in San Antonio, Texas.

Authorities believe that Bautista stabbed Ms. Bump to death.

Bautista reportedly had several prior arrests dating back to 2005. He was recently released from a Huntsville prison after serving 6 years for aggravated robbery.

Ms. Bump was a graduate student at the Harding University's Physicians' Assistant program. Friends described her as a happy and loving person.

OJJPAC note: Due to the Obama administration's failure to deport criminal illegal aliens, another American has been murdered. The Obama administration's outrageous response is to expend scarce federal resources to sue Arizona and other states attempting to protect their citizens like Lauren Bump. Our sympathies to the Bump family.

They are not "just silly rhetoric". they were people, who could still be alive had the border been secured...

If it sickeningly funny that you claim you care about and love America, its culture, its Liberty and the people who have created it, yet you do everything to weaken, harm, and destroy them.

Mycroft said:

Or...you could actively follow current law...create the border security the law calls for...and have the added benefit of reducing drunk driving deaths by illegal aliens.

Okay.

Let it be understood that you don't think a border fence is a good idea. That you do not consider our border security worth it...that you don't even consider the added benefit of saving thousands of lives of innocent American citizens worth it.

And that you consider any mention of benefits to a border fence to be nothing more than "silly rhetoric"..."a throw away argument".

Click to expand...

It really is breath taking, They claim they are "compassionate" yet they allow in murders, rapist, gang members, and addicts who victimize the people of this nation, and who want to disarm us in the face of this invasion...And in their eyes we are the evil ones..

AmericanSpartan said:

It really is breath taking, They claim they are "compassionate" yet they allow in murders, rapist, gang members, and addicts who victimize the people of this nation, and who want to disarm us in the face of this invasion...And in their eyes we are the evil ones..

Click to expand...

Well yes... they just want to work and be productive members of society, if you even imply that any of them could possibly harm anyone is simply racist. (Sarcasm)

Really, kindness to the guilty (and illegal immigration is still a crime) is cruelty to the innocent (ex : legal migrants).