Thread: California Dream Act's opponents gather signatures

Originally Posted by jamesrage

The only thing you are doing is legitimizing their attempts to make it seem as though there is something wrong with the term illegal,illegal alien or illegal immigrant. Pro-illegals all across the country are attempting to ban the use of the words illegals,illegal aliens and illegal immigrant to further their pro-illegal cause.If you are actually opposed to illegal immigration then you should not aid pro-illegals in their attempt to mask illegal immigration.The only reason pro-illegals use "Undocumented" anything is to hide the illegality of the people they are trying to defend. Should we refer to drug dealers as unlicensed pharmacist or undocumented street side pharmacies because pro-drug users might want to feign being offended or try to derail the topic? Should we refer to burglars as property acquisition specialists because people defending burglars might derail the thread topic? Should we refer to prison inmates as facility confined Americans because prison inmate might hurt prison inmate's feelings?

While i agree with the point you are making, my choice of words were used to draw attention to the very fact that there is no difference between "undocumented" and "illegal alien", that is why i used both terms in the same sentence. As i stated before, my comment was not written to address that point, so i didnt want the reply to be drawn off subject by providing an easy way for someone to derail the conversation (which you are doing right now).

Originally Posted by Dpetty

While i agree with the point you are making, my choice of words were used to draw attention to the very fact that there is no difference between "undocumented" and "illegal alien", that is why i used both terms in the same sentence. As i stated before, my comment was not written to address that point,

But there is a difference between illegal and undocumented. That is why every pro-illegal is trying to push for the terms undocumented, undocumented worker,undocumented alien,undocumented immigrant or undocumented America. They only thing you are doing is aiding pro-illegals by helping them push the idea that there is something wrong with the term illegal,illegal alien or illegal immigrant. The one thing you as someone who opposes illegal immigration should not do is help pro-illegals win with their propaganda and PC attempts.Its basically like a translation with an agenda where they purposely mis-translate in order to deceive or change public opinion. That is why they use the term undocumented.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...onWithAnAgenda

so i didnt want the reply to be drawn off subject by providing an easy way for someone to derail the conversation (which you are doing right now).

If you claim to be against illegal immigrant and start using terms that pro-illegals use then those who are against illegal immigration will say something.

Originally Posted by Dpetty

While i agree with the point you are making, my choice of words were used to draw attention to the very fact that there is no difference between "undocumented" and "illegal alien", that is why i used both terms in the same sentence. As i stated before, my comment was not written to address that point, so i didnt want the reply to be drawn off subject by providing an easy way for someone to derail the conversation (which you are doing right now).

I agree with Jamesrage here. Let me ask you Dpetty, if the words were the same then why is it the pro-illegals worked so hard to try to assert the words undocumented immigrant, undocumented worker, etc etc in order to replace illegal alien? By using those words you just promote thier attempts to make it seem like it is ok for these people to be here because they're not really breaking the law, they're just trying to make thier lives better.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

I agree with Jamesrage here. Let me ask you Dpetty, if the words were the same then why is it the pro-illegals worked so hard to try to assert the words undocumented immigrant, undocumented worker, etc etc in order to replace illegal alien? By using those words you just promote thier attempts to make it seem like it is ok for these people to be here because they're not really breaking the law, they're just trying to make thier lives better.

This is completely ridiculous. The problem is that people on BOTH sides of the argument get to caught and distracted with words and labels. I dont give a flying monkey what words people choose to refer to illegal’s, it doesnt change my opinions or views. They could call them "American Wannabe's" for all i care, they are still here illegally. I would much rather debate the important things that lead to solutions, rather than argue over semantics. The very thing i was trying to prevent (getting off topic), happened anyway! Notice how far off topic we are now??
One of the reasons pro-illegals worked so hard to assert their own labels, is because they are overwhelmingly liberals, and liberals in general feel an overpowering need to be politically correct in everything they say, for fear of possibly offending someone (heaven forbid). To me, its no different than talking to a child. You have to use words they are familiar with if you expect them to understand you. If im talking to my 3 year old son about the dangers of touching the oven when its on, and i use the word Pizza while giving an example, he is going to focus on pizza and not hear anything else i have to say. The same thing can be said about this. If im trying to discuss a deep topic with someone who disagrees with me, and i use a misnomer in the discussion, they are much more likely to go with the easy argument, such as arguing over phraseology, than they are to stick with the discussion at hand. Thanks for making my point.

Originally Posted by jamesrage

But there is a difference between illegal and undocumented. That is why every pro-illegal is trying to push for the terms undocumented, undocumented worker,undocumented alien,undocumented immigrant or undocumented America. They only thing you are doing is aiding pro-illegals by helping them push the idea that there is something wrong with the term illegal,illegal alien or illegal immigrant. The one thing you as someone who opposes illegal immigration should not do is help pro-illegals win with their propaganda and PC attempts.Its basically like a translation with an agenda where they purposely mis-translate in order to deceive or change public opinion. That is why they use the term undocumented.

Is it not illegal to be in the country undocumented?? If you think the solution to illegal immigration (for either side) is word choice, your wrong. You took one word out of everything i have written, and you have doggedly hung on to it and refused to acknowledge anything else i have said on the subject.

If you claim to be against illegal immigrant and start using terms that pro-illegals use then those who are against illegal immigration will say something.

I could say purple monkey dishwasher, and still claim to be against illegal immigration. There is no union telling me what words i can and cannot use. We cant win arguments by throwing terms back and forth so there is no point in even giving credence to them. You are giving them more power than i am by saying that only pro-illegals can use that reference. Its not the label we use that seperate the sides, its our opinions on the issues.

Originally Posted by Dpetty

One of the reasons pro-illegals worked so hard to assert their own labels, is because they are overwhelmingly liberals, and liberals in general feel an overpowering need to be politically correct in everything they say, for fear of possibly offending someone (heaven forbid). To me, its no different than talking to a child. You have to use words they are familiar with if you expect them to understand you. If im talking to my 3 year old son about the dangers of touching the oven when its on, and i use the word Pizza while giving an example, he is going to focus on pizza and not hear anything else i have to say. The same thing can be said about this.

Pro-illegals know what the word illegal means.The fact they just comment on the word is merely a purposeful distraction on their part.

If im trying to discuss a deep topic with someone who disagrees with me, and i use a misnomer in the discussion, they are much more likely to go with the easy argument, such as arguing over phraseology, than they are to stick with the discussion at hand. Thanks for making my point.

A misnomer is a misapplied or inappropriate name or designation. Are you saying the words illegal,illegal alien or illegal immigrant is misapplied or inappropriate? Apparently you think there is something wrong with those words.

Is it not illegal to be in the country undocumented??

Not according to the way pro-illegals talk. Which is why they are trying to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented and why they make false claims that it is racist to use the word illegal. Undocumented implies that you just merely have no documents or that you somehow lost your documentation.That is a term that can apply to anyone who has no documentation regardless of legal status. Even the word undocumented in the dictionary says nothing about legality. A huge difference between undocumented and illegal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/undocumented
1.
lacking documentation or authentication.
2.
lacking proper immigration or working papers.


http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...egal+immigrant
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegal+alien
1.
a foreigner who has entered or resides in a country unlawfully or without the country's authorization.
2.
a foreigner who enters the U.S. without an entry or immigrant visa, especially a person who crosses the border by avoiding inspection or who overstays the period of time allowed as a visitor, tourist, or businessperson.

If you think the solution to illegal immigration (for either side) is word choice, your wrong. You took one word out of everything i have written, and you have doggedly hung on to it and refused to acknowledge anything else i have said on the subject

.
If you are going to engage in the pro-illegal attempt to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented while at the same time claiming to be against illegal immigration then I will say something. Any attempts to win the fight against illegal immigration will be hampered if people like you choose to use the term undocumented. Pro-illegals rely heavily on deceit and you are just helping them when out with that deceit you call illegal aliens undocumented immigrants.

I could say purple monkey dishwasher, and still claim to be against illegal immigration. There is no union telling me what words i can and cannot use. We cant win arguments by throwing terms back and forth so there is no point in even giving credence to them. You are giving them more power than i am by saying that only pro-illegals can use that reference. Its not the label we use that seperate the sides, its our opinions on the issues.

Pro-illegals want to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented. Why do you think they want to do that? It's not because they want to assert their own label out of fear of offending someone. It is purely a propaganda attempt to hide the illegality of illegal immigration.

Originally Posted by jamesrage

Pro-illegals know what the word illegal means.The fact they just comment on the word is merely a purposeful distraction on their part.

Which is exactly what i said.

A misnomer is a misapplied or inappropriate name or designation. Are you saying the words illegal,illegal alien or illegal immigrant is misapplied or inappropriate? Apparently you think there is something wrong with those words.

You are the one arguing that it is misapplied and inappropriate (which is based on individual oppinion), and since your the one drawing attention to it, the definition applies. so are you saying its NOT a misnomer? This is exactly what im talking about!!! You get so caught up on word choice that you miss the whole point!

Not according to the way pro-illegals talk. Which is why they are trying to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented and why they make false claims that it is racist to use the word illegal. Undocumented implies that you just merely have no documents or that you somehow lost your documentation.That is a term that can apply to anyone who has no documentation regardless of legal status.

I didnt ask what pro-illegals think, i asked if being undocumented was legal. Which it is not. So the only difference between illegal and undocumented is in your head.

If you are going to engage in the pro-illegal attempt to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented while at the same time claiming to be against illegal immigration then I will say something. Any attempts to win the fight against illegal immigration will be hampered if people like you choose to use the term undocumented. Pro-illegals rely heavily on deceit and you are just helping them when out with that deceit you call illegal aliens undocumented immigrants.

You were the first person to bring attention to my word choice, and you are giving them far more credit than i am, so i would say you are doing a better job at helping them with their propaganda campaign than i am. You are way to busy fighting grammer with people who AGREE with your opinions on the subject, to even reply to the comments dealing with immigration!

Pro-illegals want to replace the word illegal with the word undocumented. Why do you think they want to do that? It's not because they want to assert their own label out of fear of offending someone. It is purely a propaganda attempt to hide the illegality of illegal immigration.

I dont care what pro-illegals want to do. If i let their stupid "propaganda" attempts determine what im allowed to say, then they are successful arent they? I think they would be pretty happy to see how their "propaganda" has caused two people that oppose them, to argue with eachother instead of with THEM!

I guess the main argument, since i used both the term undocumented AND illegal in the same sentance, is that you dont think they refer to the same people?

Originally Posted by Dpetty

This is completely ridiculous. The problem is that people on BOTH sides of the argument get to caught and distracted with words and labels. I dont give a flying monkey what words people choose to refer to illegal’s, it doesnt change my opinions or views. They could call them "American Wannabe's" for all i care, they are still here illegally. I would much rather debate the important things that lead to solutions, rather than argue over semantics. The very thing i was trying to prevent (getting off topic), happened anyway! Notice how far off topic we are now??
One of the reasons pro-illegals worked so hard to assert their own labels, is because they are overwhelmingly liberals, and liberals in general feel an overpowering need to be politically correct in everything they say, for fear of possibly offending someone (heaven forbid). To me, its no different than talking to a child. You have to use words they are familiar with if you expect them to understand you. If im talking to my 3 year old son about the dangers of touching the oven when its on, and i use the word Pizza while giving an example, he is going to focus on pizza and not hear anything else i have to say. The same thing can be said about this. If im trying to discuss a deep topic with someone who disagrees with me, and i use a misnomer in the discussion, they are much more likely to go with the easy argument, such as arguing over phraseology, than they are to stick with the discussion at hand. Thanks for making my point.

And you totally avoided answering my question.

And your example with your kid and pizza and hot stove is exactly what we are talking about. In order to get the point across you have to use the correct words or you will not get the message across that you want to. The same goes for "illegal" vs "undocumented". The pro-illegal side uses the word "undocumented" because it makes the point that illegals are just citizens without legal documentation. Anti-illegals use the word "illegal" because it makes the point that illegals broke the law to get here and are not citizens.

While they both can play on peoples emotions (depending on which side of they issue they are on) one is designed to illicit more of an emotional response than the other. "Undocumented" creates more of an emotional response because it makes people believe that illegals are just citizens without documentation and as such they shouldn't be "shoved from thier home". And humans in general abhor the thought of kicking someone from thier "home". The other is based more upon fact than emotion.

Words do have power.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

And you totally avoided answering my question.

And your example with your kid and pizza and hot stove is exactly what we are talking about. In order to get the point across you have to use the correct words or you will not get the message across that you want to. The same goes for "illegal" vs "undocumented". The pro-illegal side uses the word "undocumented" because it makes the point that illegals are just citizens without legal documentation. Anti-illegals use the word "illegal" because it makes the point that illegals broke the law to get here and are not citizens.

While they both can play on peoples emotions (depending on which side of they issue they are on) one is designed to illicit more of an emotional response than the other. "Undocumented" creates more of an emotional response because it makes people believe that illegals are just citizens without documentation and as such they shouldn't be "shoved from thier home". And humans in general abhor the thought of kicking someone from thier "home". The other is based more upon fact than emotion.

Words do have power.

Your question was why Pro-illegal’s work so hard to try to assert the words undocumented immigrant, undocumented worker, etc etc in order to replace illegal alien? Well im not a pro-illegal so i cant answer that question with 100% accuracy. I do however think its based largely on what you said, as well as largely on their own disposition toward political correctness.

Im glad you liked my pizza analogy. My original comment was aimed at Teamosil who is on the Pro-illegal side, and who used the term "undocumented worker" in his comment. In my reply i used the word Undocumented worker, then in parenthesis i said (illegal alien) to show which side i viewed it from. My plan worked because Teamosil didnt get stuck on the reference. I didnt expect someone from my own side of the argument to get so caught up on nothing. Its just like Stillballin75 (a liberal) said:

Originally Posted by STILLBALLIN75

who cares what you call em? We're all referring to the same thing.

My comment was not meant to illicit emotions, nor do i think it did so. Its usually the liberals telling me what words and terms i can and cannot use. Im not used to hearing it from the conservative crowd.

At the end of the day, i can use whatever term i want and even if you think that groups me with the Pro-illegal's, it in fact, does not. Im a pretty staunch supporter of illegal immigration control.

Instead of focusing on one word and its implied new definition, view the words around it that form the sentance and listen to what im trying to say. That one word didnt change that.

Originally Posted by Dpetty

I didnt ask what pro-illegals think, i asked if being undocumented was legal. Which it is not. So the only difference between illegal and undocumented is in your head.

The definition of undocumented mentions nothing about illegality.

You were the first person to bring attention to my word choice, and you are giving them far more credit than i am, so i would say you are doing a better job at helping them with their propaganda campaign than i am. You are way to busy fighting grammer with people who AGREE with your opinions on the subject, to even reply to the comments dealing with immigration!




I dont care what pro-illegals want to do. If i let their stupid "propaganda" attempts determine what im allowed to say, then they are successful arent they?I think they would be pretty happy to see how their "propaganda" has caused two people that oppose them, to argue with eachother instead of with THEM!

This from a person using the term documented because he is afraid pro-illegals will call him a racist or distract from the issue.The fact that were are even having this discussion means they are successful in dictating at what you say.