Thread: California Dream Act's opponents gather signatures

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

I suppose that even putting it this simply will fail to get through to teamosil…

Every dollar that is given to an invading criminal through programs such as the California Dream Act is a dollar that a legal resident doesn't have. Either it is a dollar that could have been given, through a similar program, to a legal resident, or else it is a dollar that, through lower taxation, could have been left in the hands of the person who rightfully earned it in the first place.

No, you're saying a different thing than Kal'Stang is. What you are saying is true. Or at least close to true. If we pay more for financial aid, we'll need to borrow more or tax more or whatever to cover that like we do with any other expenditure. Of course. I'm arguing that that is well worth it. We are moving people from being drains on society to being contributing members. That's worth way more than a few bucks up front for subsidized loans or whatever.

Kal'Stang is arguing that somehow citizens won't get as much financial aid if undocumented immigrants get it, and that is just flatly false.

Originally Posted by teamosil

No, you're saying a different thing than Kal'Stang is. What you are saying is true. Or at least close to true. If we pay more for financial aid, we'll need to borrow more or tax more or whatever to cover that like we do with any other expenditure. Of course. I'm arguing that that is well worth it. We are moving people from being drains on society to being contributing members. That's worth way more than a few bucks up front for subsidized loans or whatever.

Better yet, round them up and send them back to their own countries.

Nothing that you have said anywhere in this thread justifies rewarding criminals, and helping make their crimes profitable.

Further, giving aid and comfort to foreign invaders clearly meets the definition of treason, as given in the Constitution. Governor Brown is guilty of treason for having signed this bill into law, as are the legislators who authored and supported it. They should be prosecuted as criminals, all of them.

Originally Posted by teamosil

Kal'Stang is arguing that somehow citizens won't get as much financial aid if undocumented immigrants get it, and that is just flatly false.

No, he's entirely correct. Money given away to these criminals is money that instead, could have been given to honest, legal residents. There isn't an infinite source of money. More money spent somewhere is that much less money to be spent somewhere else. Money given away to invading criminals is that much money not available to honest, legal residents.

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

Better yet, round them up and send them back to their own countries.

Nothing that you have said anywhere in this thread justifies rewarding criminals, and helping make their crimes profitable.

It's just a cost benefit analysis. Is it worth the money to get people who would be a drain on society unable to pay many of the taxes and consuming social services to get an education that will enable them to get jobs where they can get work visa and pay taxes. The answer to that is clear and none of you even seem to disagree that it is clearly advantageous. Just regressing into emo rhetoric doesn't change the math.

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

foreign invaders

lol. Silly!

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

No, he's entirely correct. Money given away to these criminals is money that instead, could have been given to honest, legal residents. There isn't an infinite source of money. More money spent somewhere is that much less money to be spent somewhere else. Money given away to invading criminals is that much money not available to honest, legal residents.

No, he's entirely incorrect. If less people get financial aid than expected this year, they don't like give more financial aid to the people who do get it. If more people get financial aid than expected this year, they don't give less financial aid to each person... That just isn't how it works at all.

Originally Posted by teamosil

I really don't know why you're struggling with this. Like let me give you an example with law school, since I'm using financial aid there. The law says that you get $8,500 a year in subsidized loans, $11,500 a year in unsubsidized stafford loans, and then enough PLUS loans to cover the difference between what you can afford and the total cost. Period. That's how much you get. That doesn't change from year to year, you don't need to compete with anybody to get that, how much you get has zero to do with how many other people get financial aid, etc. If a million more people got financial aid than last year, that would still be the law- $8,500 sub, $11,500 unsub, up to the total plus loans.

What you are doing is looking at it strictly from the students pov. You are not looking at the bigger picture. Yes each student that GETS financial aid will get those dollars. Unless of course they over pay and then they take the money back from the student...leaving them with less than they thought they had (example of this was in my first link). What you are not considering, or refusing to consider, is that financial aid programs can only give money to X number of students because they only have Y amount of money.

An example that you should be able to relate with....Lets say that you (you're the financial aid program) have 100 dollars in your bank account. There are several ways that you can give that money out to people (potential college students). You can give 100 people $1 each or you can give 4 people $25. You can give $100 to 1 person even. But what you cannot do is give 101 people $1 each, 5 people $25 each, or $101 to 1 person. You simply do not have enough money. Because of this you will not be able to give everyone that needs it money. That is a physical impossibility.

The same exact thing applies to financial aid programs. If they have enough money to put 20,000 kids into college they CANNOT give out enough money to put 20,001 kids through college. Which means that there are going to be people that will not be able to go to college until they allocate more money to that financial aid program. Which does not happen but on a yearly or seasonal basis.

Now with the CDA they are giving money out to illegals even though they know that there are legal resident potential students that are not getting money because the financial aid programs that they tried to get money through but couldn't because that financial aid program didn't have enough money.

There is simply no other way to explain this. Either you get it, or you don't.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

What you are not considering, or refusing to consider, is that financial aid programs can only give money to X number of students because they only have Y amount of money.

That just isn't how it works kiddo. The budget for financial aid is just based on how many people are getting financial aid. If the average financial aid package is $10,000 and they are anticipating that 2 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set the budget to $20 billion. If 3 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set it to $30 billion. If they thought it was going to be 2 million and because of some horrible, bizarre and inexplicable mistake they missed the mark by 1 million people and it is actually 3 million on financial aid, then they'd just authorize another $10 billion. They aren't refusing to give anybody the amount of aid the law entitles them to.

For example, during the Bush recession there was a huge surge in the number of people going back to school or staying in school because they got laid off or didn't get a job. Something like a 30% increase in the number of people getting financial aid. A radically larger increase than the CDA would even come close to. Did you think that meant everybody just got 30% less aid or something? Of course not. Everybody still got their financial aid, it just meant Congress had to spend a bit more than they had expected. They don't turn people away who qualify for financial aid because they're out of money lol.

Originally Posted by teamosil

It's just a cost benefit analysis. Is it worth the money to get people who would be a drain on society unable to pay many of the taxes and consuming social services to get an education that will enable them to get jobs where they can get work visa and pay taxes. The answer to that is clear and none of you even seem to disagree that it is clearly advantageous. Just regressing into emo rhetoric doesn't change the math.

The simpler answer is to just get rid of them. Less taxes taken from people if nothing else....though there are a whole hell of a lot more "else's".

Originally Posted by teamosil

lol. Silly!

Not "silly". An invader is anyone that comes into an area without permission. Does a murderer invade a home to kill some stranger? Or do they get invited?

Originally Posted by teamosil

No, he's entirely incorrect. If less people get financial aid than expected this year, they don't like give more financial aid to the people who do get it. If more people get financial aid than expected this year, they don't give less financial aid to each person... That just isn't how it works at all.

I haven't said any of this. The people that do get financial aid will get the amount that they are alloted for...enough to get through college. However there are people that apply for financial aid and do not get it because the financial aid program does not have enough money.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

The simpler answer is to just get rid of them. Less taxes taken from people if nothing else....though there are a whole hell of a lot more "else's".

The simpler answer is to just get rid of them... How do you propose doing that? Magic? We have a $40 billion a year operation to try to find and deport undocumented immigrants already. It results in 400,000 deportations a year. We can assume that as we get into harder and harder ones to find or deport that ratio will fall, but how much more do you want to spend? Say you went up to $80 billion/year and got 600,000 deportations a year. Do you think you'd even notice the difference? Yet that would cost you like 100 times as much as to give their kids financial aid which would probably reduce the number of people draining society far, far, more... It just doesn't make sense. You need to think more pragmatically and less emotionally on this issue.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

Not "silly". An invader is anyone that comes into an area without permission. Does a murderer invade a home to kill some stranger? Or do they get invited?

lol. Calling like grandmothers and little kids and people who are just looking for work "invaders" is just silly talk. Don't be ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

However there are people that apply for financial aid and do not get it because the financial aid program does not have enough money.

No there are not. That does not happen. Period. If you meet the qualifications for financial aid, you get financial aid. That's all there is to it.

Originally Posted by teamosil

That just isn't how it works kiddo. The budget for financial aid is just based on how many people are getting financial aid. If the average financial aid package is $10,000 and they are anticipating that 2 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set the budget to $20 billion. If 3 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set it to $30 billion. If they thought it was going to be 2 million and because of some horrible, bizarre and inexplicable mistake they missed the mark by 1 million people and it is actually 3 million on financial aid, then they'd just authorize another $10 billion. They aren't refusing to give anybody the amount of aid the law entitles them to.

They do not "just authorize another $10 billion". They first have to have that extra "10 billion". Which when a state is running a deficit means that they do not have that extra "10 billion". And they certainly do not authorize ANY extra money just as soon as the financial aid program runs out. You seem to be ignoring the fact that our government runs at a sick snail's pace. And there is certainly no gauruntee that that the governmen WILL authorize another extra "10 billion".

And don't call me kiddo. I'm 36 years old and its condecending to call someone my age that.

Originally Posted by teamosil

That just isn't how it works kiddo. The budget for financial aid is just based on how many people are getting financial aid. If the average financial aid package is $10,000 and they are anticipating that 2 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set the budget to $20 billion. If 3 million people are going to be on financial aid, they set it to $30 billion. If they thought it was going to be 2 million and because of some horrible, bizarre and inexplicable mistake they missed the mark by 1 million people and it is actually 3 million on financial aid, then they'd just authorize another $10 billion. They aren't refusing to give anybody the amount of aid the law entitles them to.

For example, during the Bush recession there was a huge surge in the number of people going back to school or staying in school because they got laid off or didn't get a job. Something like a 30% increase in the number of people getting financial aid. A radically larger increase than the CDA would even come close to. Did you think that meant everybody just got 30% less aid or something? Of course not. Everybody still got their financial aid, it just meant Congress had to spend a bit more than they had expected. They don't turn people away who qualify for financial aid because they're out of money lol.

From where does that extra $10 billion come? Do you really think that government can simply pull an additional ten billion dollars out of thin air, without some other part of the economy being made poorer by that same amount?

Government cannot ever, under any circumstances, give anything to anyone without taking it from someone else.

What you are defending is government taking money from honest, law-abiding taxpayers, and giving it to criminals. Whatever other claims you may make, whatever benefits you might attribute to it; you cannot escape this simple fact of what it is that you are advocating.

Government taking money from law-abiding citizens, and giving it to criminals, makes government a willing accessory to those criminals and their crimes. It makes government an ally of the criminals,and and enemy to the honest people that it is robbing on behalf of the criminals.

And when those criminals are foreign invaders, this goes beyond robbery, and into treason.

Originally Posted by Kal'Stang

They do not "just authorize another $10 billion". They first have to have that extra "10 billion". Which when a state is running a deficit means that they do not have that extra "10 billion". And they certainly do not authorize ANY extra money just as soon as the financial aid program runs out. You seem to be ignoring the fact that our government runs at a sick snail's pace. And there is certainly no gauruntee that that the governmen WILL authorize another extra "10 billion".

Seriously. Nobody ever gets turned away for financial aid because the "government is out of money"... This is just a made up problem you've come up with. Congress commits to the people to provide financial aid according to certain rules. It has never failed to deliver on that and I very much doubt it ever would.

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

From where does that extra $10 billion come? Do you really think that government can simply pull an additional ten billion dollars out of thin air, without some other part of the economy being made poorer by that same amount?

If we pay more for financial aid, we'll need to borrow more or tax more or whatever to cover that like we do with any other expenditure. Of course. I'm arguing that that is well worth it. We are moving people from being drains on society to being contributing members. That's worth way more than a few bucks up front for subsidized loans or whatever.