Could this generation stomach the carnage of world war 2? - Page 20

DivineComedy · 06-03-08, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatuey

The media didn't mess up this war for us. Fighting under false pretenses did. Entering a completely unnecessary war based on lies, excuse me, 'misinformation' ruined it for us. Not the media. The U.S. had a legitimate excuse for going into WWII. Can you say the same about Iraq? Did we find out the Japanese attacked us because we were covertly killing their children? Our decision to enter WWII was based on A) the fact that we were attacked and B) Hitler was an actual threat. What member of the current administration can say with a straight face they didn't know Saddam Hussein was about as much a threat as any other 5th rate dictator? None. The Iraq War was an avoidable mistake and this has only become more and more obvious after 5 years of it. We've been in the wrong from day one. Fighting under a 'what if' paper thin justification.

There was no WMD to justify fighting to lower the odds of a "liberal's" lungs turning to puss.

There was no threat from Iraq, other than:

Saddam may have made a call in the vernacular of terror for well known terrorists to attack us to save him from his dilemma (created by Saddam's aggression, "war for oil," United Nations (of tyrants too), and Gorby saying, "that is far enough":

August, 1996: "More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression (sanction) imposed on Iraq and its nation. The children of Iraq are our children. You, the USA, together with the Saudi regime are responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children. Due to all of that, what ever treaty you have with our country is now null and void.
The treaty of Hudaybiyyah was cancelled by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) once Quraysh had assisted Bani Bakr against Khusa'ah, the allies of the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him). The prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) fought Quraysh and concurred Makka. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa' void because one of their Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market." (Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places.) Online NewsHour: Bin Laden's Fatwa

March 1997: "Though Bin Ladin had promised Taliban leaders that he would be circumspect, he broke this promise almost immediately, giving an inflammatory interview to CNN in March 1997. The Taliban leader Mullah Omar promptly "invited" Bin Ladin to move to Kandahar, ostensibly in the interests of Bin Ladin's own security but more likely to situate him where he might be easier to control.73
There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. None are reported to have received a significant response. According to one report, Saddam Hussein's efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74" (The 9/11 commission report, page 65-66)
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
details

July 1997, South Movement, "the path of Jihad and proper action": "Those who desire to face up to the Zionists conspiracies, intransigence, and aggressiveness must proceed towards the advance centers of capabilities in the greater Arab homeland and to the centers of the knowledge, honesty and sincerity with whole heartiness if the aim was to implement a serious plan to save others from their dilemma or to rely on those capable centers; well-known for their positions regarding the enemy, to gain precise concessions from it with justified maneuvers even if such centers including Baghdad not in agreement with those concerned, over the objectives and aims of the required maneuvers." (On the 29th anniversary of Iraq's national day (the 17th of July 1968 revolution). President Saddam Hussein made an important comprehensive and nation wide address) President Saddam's speech on July 17 1997

The fifth column made a call for international criminals to defy us:

December 1997: "'If the United Nations fails to respond to the Organization of the Islamic Conference (meeting in Tehran) then the Muslim world must act and defy these sanctions,' Farrakhan told an audience of union representatives in the Iraqi capital." (Louis Farrakhan) South News Dec 12 1997

We were attacked because of the United Nations (of tyrant too) and the Democratic Party's Iraq, just ask Al Quacka, Chomsky, Farrakhan, and Obama's old minister:

February 23, 1998: One ("The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people"), Two ("despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance"), Three ("if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq")! http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm One Iraq, Two Iraq, Three Iraq!

“In the case of Iraq, for the last 10 years the U.S. and Britain have been devastating the civilian society. Madeleine Albright's famous statement about how maybe half a million children have died, and it's a high price but we're willing to pay it, that doesn't sound too good among people who think that maybe it matters if half a million children are killed by the U.S. and Britain. And meanwhile [the sanctions are] strengthening Saddam Hussein.” (On the Attacks on New York and Washington, Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Barsamian, International Socialist Review, Issue 20, November-December, 2001)
On the Attacks on New York and Washington, Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Barsamian

September, 16th, 2001: "Whenever a nation becomes great and powerful by God’s Permission, as America has; whenever a nation becomes the undisputed ruler of the world, as America has, by Allah’s Permission; when a nation becomes the only remaining superpower, having the power to destroy other nations and people by the tens of thousands and millions, as Allah has permitted America the power to do, and that nation then has a spiritual lapse and begins to sink into moral decline, the Qur’an teaches that Allah (God) raises a messenger, but he raises that messenger from among the poor and the abject to guide and to warn the great and the powerful.

Allah (God) knows that the powerful will not heed a warning coming from their ex-slave or from the weak or from the abject, so the Qur’an teaches that Allah (God) then seizes that nation with distress and affliction, that it might humble itself. For only in humility can the proud and the powerful heed the Guidance of God, which is mercy and grace from Himself. Allah (God) used this tragedy, hopefully, to bring a great nation to Himself." (Louis Farrakhan)
Response to 9/11 Attacks

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into
the woodwork or just ‘disappeared‘ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns.”
http://www.cmaucc.org/EMRJeremiahWright2.pdf

Saddam's defense attorney was opposed to our response to the attitude and analysis of the terrorists, before the freaking dust of 911 had cleared:

September 2001: "Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General...David Muller, South Movement, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia"
Workers World Oct. 4, 2001: Join a new anti-war coalition

Saddam said some Al Quacka should be helped to save themselves and their surroundings (terrorists by a definition take the law into their own hands according to their own ideas of justice):

"On the basis of what we said about Iraq while confronting aggressions, the world now needs to abort the US aggressive schemes, including its aggression on the Afghan people, which must stop.
Again we say that when someone feels that he is unjustly treated, and no one is repulsing or stopping the injustice inflicted on him, he personally seeks ways and means for lifting that justice. Of course, not everyone is capable of finding the best way for lifting the injustice inflicted on him. People resort to what they think is the best way according to their own ideas, and they are not all capable of reaching out for what is beyond what is available to arrive to the best idea or means.
To find the best way, after having found their way to God and His rights, those who are inflicted by injustice need not to be isolated from their natural milieu, or be ignored deliberately, or as a result of mis-appreciation, by the officials in this milieu. They should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings. It is only normal to say that punishment is a necessity in our world, because what is a necessity in the other world must also be necessary in our world on Earth. But, the punishment in the other world is faire and just, and the prophets and messengers of God (peace be upon them all) conducted punishment and called for it in justice, and not on the basis of suspicions and whims." (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

"Once again, we say that, injustice and the pressure that results from it on people lead to explosions. As explosions are not always organized, it is to be expected that they may harm those who make them and others. The events of September 11, should be seen on this basis, and on the basis of imbalanced reactions, on the part of governments accused of being democratic, if the Americans are sure that these were carried out by people from abroad.
To concentrate not on what is important, but rather on what is the most important, we say again that after having seen that the flames of any fire can expand to cover all the world, it first and foremost, needs justice based on fairness. The best and most sublime expression of this is in what we have learned from what God the Al Mighty ordered to be, or not to be." (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

The Democratic Party just nominated someone to end the "unjust" or "dumb" war in Iraq:

"When Sen. Barack Obama 'rejected' and 'denounced' the support of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan during the MSNBC debate last week, it wasn't his finest hour.

Fortunately for Obama, most black people understand the game.

Obama should have found a way to escape Russert's trap without denigrating Farrakhan's legacy.

But, like I said, we understand." (BY MARY MITCHELL Sun-Times Columnist)
Why Obama 'denounced' Farrakhan :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Mary Mitchell

Yes, this generation could stomach the carnage of WWII, but the problem is this time the enemy has learned from history and is smarter than Hitler (who was a good orator too).

Bodhisattva · 06-07-08, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineComedy

There was no WMD to justify fighting to lower the odds of a "liberal's" lungs turning to puss.

There was no threat from Iraq, other than:

Saddam may have made a call in the vernacular of terror for well known terrorists to attack us to save him from his dilemma (created by Saddam's aggression, "war for oil," United Nations (of tyrants too), and Gorby saying, "that is far enough":

August, 1996: "More than 600,000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine and as a result of the unjustifiable aggression (sanction) imposed on Iraq and its nation. The children of Iraq are our children. You, the USA, together with the Saudi regime are responsible for the shedding of the blood of these innocent children. Due to all of that, what ever treaty you have with our country is now null and void.
The treaty of Hudaybiyyah was cancelled by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) once Quraysh had assisted Bani Bakr against Khusa'ah, the allies of the prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him). The prophet (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) fought Quraysh and concurred Makka. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) considered the treaty with Bani Qainuqa' void because one of their Jews publicly hurt one Muslim woman, one single woman, at the market." (Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places.) Online NewsHour: Bin Laden's Fatwa

March 1997: "Though Bin Ladin had promised Taliban leaders that he would be circumspect, he broke this promise almost immediately, giving an inflammatory interview to CNN in March 1997. The Taliban leader Mullah Omar promptly "invited" Bin Ladin to move to Kandahar, ostensibly in the interests of Bin Ladin's own security but more likely to situate him where he might be easier to control.73
There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. None are reported to have received a significant response. According to one report, Saddam Hussein's efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74" (The 9/11 commission report, page 65-66)
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
details

July 1997, South Movement, "the path of Jihad and proper action": "Those who desire to face up to the Zionists conspiracies, intransigence, and aggressiveness must proceed towards the advance centers of capabilities in the greater Arab homeland and to the centers of the knowledge, honesty and sincerity with whole heartiness if the aim was to implement a serious plan to save others from their dilemma or to rely on those capable centers; well-known for their positions regarding the enemy, to gain precise concessions from it with justified maneuvers even if such centers including Baghdad not in agreement with those concerned, over the objectives and aims of the required maneuvers." (On the 29th anniversary of Iraq's national day (the 17th of July 1968 revolution). President Saddam Hussein made an important comprehensive and nation wide address) President Saddam's speech on July 17 1997

The fifth column made a call for international criminals to defy us:

December 1997: "'If the United Nations fails to respond to the Organization of the Islamic Conference (meeting in Tehran) then the Muslim world must act and defy these sanctions,' Farrakhan told an audience of union representatives in the Iraqi capital." (Louis Farrakhan) South News Dec 12 1997

We were attacked because of the United Nations (of tyrant too) and the Democratic Party's Iraq, just ask Al Quacka, Chomsky, Farrakhan, and Obama's old minister:

February 23, 1998: One ("The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people"), Two ("despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance"), Three ("if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq")! World Islamic Front Statement Urging Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders One Iraq, Two Iraq, Three Iraq!

“In the case of Iraq, for the last 10 years the U.S. and Britain have been devastating the civilian society. Madeleine Albright's famous statement about how maybe half a million children have died, and it's a high price but we're willing to pay it, that doesn't sound too good among people who think that maybe it matters if half a million children are killed by the U.S. and Britain. And meanwhile [the sanctions are] strengthening Saddam Hussein.” (On the Attacks on New York and Washington, Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Barsamian, International Socialist Review, Issue 20, November-December, 2001)
On the Attacks on New York and Washington, Noam Chomsky interviewed by David Barsamian

September, 16th, 2001: "Whenever a nation becomes great and powerful by God’s Permission, as America has; whenever a nation becomes the undisputed ruler of the world, as America has, by Allah’s Permission; when a nation becomes the only remaining superpower, having the power to destroy other nations and people by the tens of thousands and millions, as Allah has permitted America the power to do, and that nation then has a spiritual lapse and begins to sink into moral decline, the Qur’an teaches that Allah (God) raises a messenger, but he raises that messenger from among the poor and the abject to guide and to warn the great and the powerful.

Allah (God) knows that the powerful will not heed a warning coming from their ex-slave or from the weak or from the abject, so the Qur’an teaches that Allah (God) then seizes that nation with distress and affliction, that it might humble itself. For only in humility can the proud and the powerful heed the Guidance of God, which is mercy and grace from Himself. Allah (God) used this tragedy, hopefully, to bring a great nation to Himself." (Louis Farrakhan)
Response to 9/11 Attacks

“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01. White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into
the woodwork or just ‘disappeared‘ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns.”
http://www.cmaucc.org/EMRJeremiahWright2.pdf

Saddam's defense attorney was opposed to our response to the attitude and analysis of the terrorists, before the freaking dust of 911 had cleared:

September 2001: "Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General...David Muller, South Movement, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia"
Workers World Oct. 4, 2001: Join a new anti-war coalition

Saddam said some Al Quacka should be helped to save themselves and their surroundings (terrorists by a definition take the law into their own hands according to their own ideas of justice):

"On the basis of what we said about Iraq while confronting aggressions, the world now needs to abort the US aggressive schemes, including its aggression on the Afghan people, which must stop.
Again we say that when someone feels that he is unjustly treated, and no one is repulsing or stopping the injustice inflicted on him, he personally seeks ways and means for lifting that justice. Of course, not everyone is capable of finding the best way for lifting the injustice inflicted on him. People resort to what they think is the best way according to their own ideas, and they are not all capable of reaching out for what is beyond what is available to arrive to the best idea or means.
To find the best way, after having found their way to God and His rights, those who are inflicted by injustice need not to be isolated from their natural milieu, or be ignored deliberately, or as a result of mis-appreciation, by the officials in this milieu. They should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings. It is only normal to say that punishment is a necessity in our world, because what is a necessity in the other world must also be necessary in our world on Earth. But, the punishment in the other world is faire and just, and the prophets and messengers of God (peace be upon them all) conducted punishment and called for it in justice, and not on the basis of suspicions and whims." (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

"Once again, we say that, injustice and the pressure that results from it on people lead to explosions. As explosions are not always organized, it is to be expected that they may harm those who make them and others. The events of September 11, should be seen on this basis, and on the basis of imbalanced reactions, on the part of governments accused of being democratic, if the Americans are sure that these were carried out by people from abroad.
To concentrate not on what is important, but rather on what is the most important, we say again that after having seen that the flames of any fire can expand to cover all the world, it first and foremost, needs justice based on fairness. The best and most sublime expression of this is in what we have learned from what God the Al Mighty ordered to be, or not to be." (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

The Democratic Party just nominated someone to end the "unjust" or "dumb" war in Iraq:

"When Sen. Barack Obama 'rejected' and 'denounced' the support of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan during the MSNBC debate last week, it wasn't his finest hour.

Fortunately for Obama, most black people understand the game.

Obama should have found a way to escape Russert's trap without denigrating Farrakhan's legacy.

But, like I said, we understand." (BY MARY MITCHELL Sun-Times Columnist)
Why Obama 'denounced' Farrakhan :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Mary Mitchell

Yes, this generation could stomach the carnage of WWII, but the problem is this time the enemy has learned from history and is smarter than Hitler (who was a good orator too).

Farrakhan denigrated Farrakhan's legacy.

YamiB. · 07-30-08, 05:41 PM

I'm sure that there would be opposition to a war effort against Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany if it were today's generation I can't say if it would be more influential than whatever minimal peace movement existed during WWII in actual history. I do think that most people would be able to recognize the clear differences in entering WWII being much more justifiable and clearer at the very least that we had clear targets of governments who attacked us and our allies.

I think that the carnage of the actual fighting would be scarring to many as it was in the actual circumstances, but that people would do what they needed to do.

UtahBill · 08-02-08, 10:04 AM

It seems to me that if carnage was inflicted on us, we would finally start fighting like we really are the big dog on the porch.
As for the terrorists, and those countries supporting them, I say screw any thoughts on winning their hearts and minds, get them by the balls and they will soon decide that the fight is not worth it.
Also screw the idea of cleaning up afterwards. They need something to do and rebuilding their own country might make them think twice about again allowing the conditions that got them beat up so badly.

Red_Dave · 08-02-08, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahBill

It seems to me that if carnage was inflicted on us, we would finally start fighting like we really are the big dog on the porch.
As for the terrorists, and those countries supporting them, I say screw any thoughts on winning their hearts and minds, get them by the balls and they will soon decide that the fight is not worth it.
Also screw the idea of cleaning up afterwards. They need something to do and rebuilding their own country might make them think twice about again allowing the conditions that got them beat up so badly.

Im sure Bin Larden would love that aproach.

YamiB. · 08-06-08, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UtahBill

It seems to me that if carnage was inflicted on us, we would finally start fighting like we really are the big dog on the porch.
As for the terrorists, and those countries supporting them, I say screw any thoughts on winning their hearts and minds, get them by the balls and they will soon decide that the fight is not worth it.
Also screw the idea of cleaning up afterwards. They need something to do and rebuilding their own country might make them think twice about again allowing the conditions that got them beat up so badly.

I'm sure that would make them go against the conditions that would allow such an event to occur, particularly the supremacy of the US military. I think the main result of this type of plan would be to switch the terrorists from being a minority group to a majority.

American · 08-06-08, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awesome!

Hundreds of thousands died in World War 2. Could this generation handle that, or would our country be too divided to make such a sacrifice now?

Well........NO!

Awesome! · 09-27-08, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamiB.

I'm sure that there would be opposition to a war effort against Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany if it were today's generation I can't say if it would be more influential than whatever minimal peace movement existed during WWII in actual history. I do think that most people would be able to recognize the clear differences in entering WWII being much more justifiable and clearer at the very least that we had clear targets of governments who attacked us and our allies.

I think that the carnage of the actual fighting would be scarring to many as it was in the actual circumstances, but that people would do what they needed to do.

I think the opposition to the methods used in WW2 would be huge. For example, if we had the same real time data that showed that so many people would die on liberty ships trying to save Britain, or US marines being used as Japanese mortar and machine gun practice storming beaches during the island hopping campaign to stop Japan, there would be massive protest. I'm just not sure if it's this generation per say or the amount of information we have now that makes us unable to stand the carnage and casualties of war. They seemed to accept it in WW2 to put a swift end to the enemy though.

And when a president like Bush makes a decision that Roosevelt should of made leading up to WW2 to do something now or deal with it later, he gets all kinds of B.S. when it's nothing near the casualties that we and the world suffered because we didn't want to stand up to Japan and Germany in the 1930's. We have since created a World court, United Nations, but it still requires blood to get things done.

Awesome! · 09-27-08, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by American

Well........NO!

Well why then? Why would they not.. pratel?

Bodhisattva · 09-29-08, 06:32 PM

If we were faced wtih the same threat as we were in WWII, I feel that the American People would have NO PROBLEM AT ALL in stomaching the carnage that happened in WWII. I would charge the beach at Iwo Jima if that is what it would take to protect my family and American Democracy from military powers like Japan and Germany...