Could this generation stomach the carnage of world war 2? - Page 18

Iriemon · 05-23-08, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegyptos

All the same question. You became uncomfortable because you realized the fallacy of your position and began with the evasions. I understand that.

The point is, and Iraq demonstrates this perfectly, just because the best congress money can buy puts its inprimateur on a president's dodgy war plans it does not make that war "legal". We had to wait for Japan to attack us before making war on them. Once they did we took possession of the moral high ground and we kept it. Nothing we did after Pearl Harbor from the introduction of napalm at Saipan to the use of the atomic bombs lost us our moral superiority. Bush's war suffers from having no moral basis and events have shown that no good thing that follows from that war can reclaim us the moral high ground. Your idea that the kangaroo congress can simply declare war on some bad guy for no legitimate reason and it will be "legal" does not pass the smell test at home and will not stand up before the court of world public opinion.

I agree with what you are trying to say. But you are confusing "legal" from a domestic perspective with legitimate, just or legal from an international perspective.

aegyptos · 05-23-08, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriemon

I agree with what you are trying to say. But you are confusing "legal" from a domestic perspective with legitimate, just or legal from an international perspective.

I'm not confusing that. You are hiding an illegal action behind legalistic defintions. The Congress can declare any war it wants but the American people, being the people they are, will only support a war that actually is legitimate. Your example of Congress declaring war on Japan because they are being mean to teh Chinese would not gain that support. No now and not in 1938.

The problem with the internationalist foreign policy we inherited from Wilson and FDR is that the line between legitimate and illegal gets fuzzier and fuzzier and we find ourselves in war after war trying to salvage the ruinious policies of the British Empires. That's what Iraq is actually about.

Iriemon · 05-24-08, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegyptos

I'm not confusing that. You are hiding an illegal action behind legalistic defintions.

Your initial question said nothing about an illegal action!

Quote:

The Congress can declare any war it wants but the American people, being the people they are, will only support a war that actually is legitimate. Your example of Congress declaring war on Japan because they are being mean to teh Chinese would not gain that support. No now and not in 1938.

What is legal under the constitution and what the America people will support are two completely different questsions.

You did not ask me what I thought the people would support but what was legal.

Quote:

The problem with the internationalist foreign policy we inherited from Wilson and FDR is that the line between legitimate and illegal gets fuzzier and fuzzier and we find ourselves in war after war trying to salvage the ruinious policies of the British Empires. That's what Iraq is actually about.

I disagree with your characterization as to what the Iraq war is about.

aegyptos · 05-24-08, 11:17 AM

Thank you for your thoughts.

Doc Howl · 05-24-08, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awesome!

Let's wait until nuclear weapons are exploding in our cities before we do anything right? At least we have the facts right?

Meh.

Go scare some sheep.

Bodhisattva · 05-25-08, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriemon

Heh heh. First you asked:

Then it became:

Which was changed to:

I'm just trying to keep up which the target you keep changing.

Now we are talking about a criminal war of aggression?

But by the legal mechanism of the constitution, Congress can declare or authorize any war it wants.

Welcome to his world.

Bodhisattva · 05-25-08, 02:20 AM

Easily. The fundamental nature of humans has not changed in 60 years or so.

If China or some major nation with a Military actually attacked us and killed Americans at the same time they were raping and murdering hundreds of thousands of others in multiple countries like either Germany or Japan, then we would go to war. I would sign up and so would many of my friends, for we have talked about this.

I care about liberty, and I care about innocent kids like mine being raped and murdered.

Awesome! · 05-25-08, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iriemon

IMO we should not necessarily do everything possible. One of the possible things we could do is nuke China. I don't think we should do it nor that it means we are powerless if we don't.

I think we should expect our government to understand the implications of ignoring our international role in this world. We don't need to nuke China or Russia do the fact that this would be suicide for both countries and maybe the world. To let nuclear weapons be in the hands of ME freaks because we require a legal mechanism for war is absurd just like the lack of awareness of the Roosevelt administration which wasted a lot of Americans lives in WW2.