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Pardon Plea by Adolf Eichmann, Nazi War Criminal, Is Made Public

PoS said:
... Everything youve said merely confirms what Ive already said about Heydrich's death before the death camps opened. Your previous post claimed that it was Heydrich who oversaw it all and now youre changing your story again, just like the revisionists.
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Heydrich was the principal architect, together with Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. The killings started years before the death camps were constructed and I explained to to you that gassings were already happening before the Wannsee Conference. Heydrich oversaw the policy and the beginnings of the Final Solution. Most people would see him as an architect rather than Eichmann.

PoS said:
In fact it was Eichmann who took over and by then he was receiving his orders directly from Heinrich Himmler. The Nazis under Hitler always had overlapping commands and responsibilities- and that was done on purpose. However when it came to transporting all Jewish populations for liquidation it was Eichmann's department that handled it all- this was the directive that was put in place after Wannsee.
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Eichmann never took over from Heydrich. He was far too junior. You are correct that it was Eichmann's office which drew-up the train timetables. I said so already.

PoS said:
Eichmann was not a station master- this has been told time and time again to you. Eichmann himself admitted that he was in charge of all transportation for the Final Solution.The prime example of this is Hungary- the moment the Nazis invaded, Eichmann went over there and personally ordered the deportation of close to half a million Jews to the death camps. It was his personal involvement that made this possible- even when the Hungarian government wanted it to stop.
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Yes, that was one of his assigned responsibilities, to arrange transport for Jews.

PoS said:
Wrong. Very wrong. Eichmann was a vicious anti-semite who made it his personal crusade to kill as many Jews as possible-
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I am prepared to believe that.

PoS said:
he did it to avenge Heydrich's death and to honor his superior's wishes. He himself admitted this.
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This I doubt.
 
Fearandloathing said:
I would say these would be complimentary to the work of Shirer is still seen as the bible of those years. Other books I have found fill in some of the material, but it was Shirers work that first linked the ancient culture of the region and how Nazism taped into that, taking it to it's conclusion

What is good about Shirer is that it is a very un-biased look by a very good professional journalist. It is almost impossible today to find such balanced and in depth writing

Anyone wanting to really know the story should start there
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Yes. I have his work around here as well. Otto Friedrich has a couple of good ones as well.
 
Heinrich said:
Since Adolf Eichmann did not help create the policy of the Final Solution, he cannot accurately be described as one of its "main architects". Such a title belongs to Reinhardt Heydrich at the command of Herman Göring. It was Heydrich who was in charge of the Einsatzgruppen in the East, carrying-out the final solution without bothering to supply death camps. Eichmann was not involved with this aspect. Heydrich also issued the orders to his Gestapo machinery to do what was necessary in the West to prepare for deportations of Jews. Eichmann was not in that chain of responsibility either. It did fall to SS-Sturmbannführer (Major) Eichmann, as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) IV-B-4 (Jewish Affairs) manager to organize the actual deportations. Eichmann was obeying orders which he received from the Chief of IV-4, SS-Sturmbannführer Hartl who in turn received his instructions from RSHA IV (Gestapo) Chief, SS-Gruppenführer (Major General) Müller who took his orders from Heydrich. Eichmann, it can be seen, was far from being an architect of the final solution and more of a glorified train timetable clerk. This is what he attempted to explain to the Israeli court.
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So his actions directly lead to the deaths of innocent civilians. What's complicated about that?
 
calamity said:
Who was that nut that said all the people dying in the World Trade Towers were little Eichmanns? Ward Churchill. I guess this op reminds me of him.
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Link and why please???
 
Heinrich said:
Since Adolf Eichmann did not help create the policy of the Final Solution, he cannot accurately be described as one of its "main architects". Such a title belongs to Reinhardt Heydrich at the command of Herman Göring. It was Heydrich who was in charge of the Einsatzgruppen in the East, carrying-out the final solution without bothering to supply death camps. Eichmann was not involved with this aspect. Heydrich also issued the orders to his Gestapo machinery to do what was necessary in the West to prepare for deportations of Jews. Eichmann was not in that chain of responsibility either. It did fall to SS-Sturmbannführer (Major) Eichmann, as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) IV-B-4 (Jewish Affairs) manager to organize the actual deportations. Eichmann was obeying orders which he received from the Chief of IV-4, SS-Sturmbannführer Hartl who in turn received his instructions from RSHA IV (Gestapo) Chief, SS-Gruppenführer (Major General) Müller who took his orders from Heydrich. Eichmann, it can be seen, was far from being an architect of the final solution and more of a glorified train timetable clerk. This is what he attempted to explain to the Israeli court.
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Right, Eichmann was nothing but someone who kept the trains on time.
Your reasoning and excuse making is right up there with the camps the Nazi's showed to the Red Cross and the world.
 
Heinrich said:
What you wrote is the familiar Israeli line and an exaggeration of Eichmann's rôle in the final solution. Yes, Eichmann was at Wannsee but he only kept the minutes. He was, (please do not take offense), a glorified secretary and not a person with any agency. Your attempt to make him a player of any importance is a misrepresentation of the facts. Heydrich was assassinated in June 1942 but by then the Einsatzgruppen had been active for almost three years in the East and whose actions contributed in a major way to what became known as the Final Solution under Heydrich's command. The Gestapo had been under orders from Heydrich in the West to process Jews for transport to concentration and death camps even before the Wannsee Conference at which the green light was given for the Final Solution. In September 1941 extermination of prisoners was taking place at Auschwitz. On 13 October 1941, three months before Wannsee, the SS and Police Leader Odilo Globocnik stationing in Lublin received an oral order from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to start immediate construction work on the killing center at Bełżec in the Generalgouvernement territory of occupied Poland. By then, the gassings at Kulmhof north of Łódź using gas vans began already in December 1941, under Sturmbannführer Herbert Lange. The camp at Bełżec was operational by March 1942, the month of Heydrich's death. The Final Solution was underway before Heydrich's death and who was one of the principal architects. Naturally very many were involved in its implementation among whom was Eichmann.

You cannot seriously believe, as you wrote, that without Eichmann the Nazis would not have been able to deport millions of Jews into those camps. Someone else with the clerical skill of a station master could and would have done the very same. No one was indispensable, not even Heydrich himself. To imply that the Jews would not have been transported by train to the extermination camps had Eichmann kicked the bucket in 1942 is manifestly false and if that is the reason you believe Eichmann was one of the main architects of the Final Solution, then you need to think again.

Please do not use the memories of the millions who died in death camps to score a debating point. Eichmann was a paper-pusher, a banal mid-level functionary. He could have been replaced at any time with an equally capable SS bureaucrat in the same way that the Polish train driver rostered to take a train from Kattowitz station to Auschwitz-Birkenau could have been replaced with the stroke of a pen on a timesheet. This is not to say that there was not a personnel challenge throughout the German bureaucracy, especially as the war progressed. There was a sparseness of personnel outside the Reich where most of the victims had to be destroyed, to be sure. Even Eichmann had two jobs; organizing the deportation of Jews and the resettlement of ethnic Germans. Bear in mind that in a dictatorship, a decision is made at the top and what follows is a bureaucratic "uncritical recipient of orders" (Albert Speer's testimony at Nürnberg). In its zeal to apportion the most grievous blame on anyone involved in the Final Solution, the responsibility of individuals has been overplayed and their culpability given equal status as those who conceived the plan and used their authority to see it was carried-out.

Eichmann was not an innocent man and he bore personal responsibility for accepting and carrying-out orders which he should have known were criminal in nature. He is an example of a man who will get involved in an inhumane policy while feeling justified that he was doing the bidding of his superiors and the government they served. I have no doubt that there are U.S. military personnel who have a clear conscience having tortured prisoners at Guantánamo Concentration Camp knowing that they were obeying orders handed down with the knowledge and approval of their Commander-in-Chief.
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You sure wasted a lot of words on a guy who should have been hung anyways.
 
Heinrich said:
Since Adolf Eichmann did not help create the policy of the Final Solution, he cannot accurately be described as one of its "main architects". Such a title belongs to Reinhardt Heydrich at the command of Herman Göring. It was Heydrich who was in charge of the Einsatzgruppen in the East, carrying-out the final solution without bothering to supply death camps. Eichmann was not involved with this aspect. Heydrich also issued the orders to his Gestapo machinery to do what was necessary in the West to prepare for deportations of Jews. Eichmann was not in that chain of responsibility either. It did fall to SS-Sturmbannführer (Major) Eichmann, as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA) IV-B-4 (Jewish Affairs) manager to organize the actual deportations. Eichmann was obeying orders which he received from the Chief of IV-4, SS-Sturmbannführer Hartl who in turn received his instructions from RSHA IV (Gestapo) Chief, SS-Gruppenführer (Major General) Müller who took his orders from Heydrich. Eichmann, it can be seen, was far from being an architect of the final solution and more of a glorified train timetable clerk. This is what he attempted to explain to the Israeli court.
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Eichmann may have been a glorified train timetable clerk in your opinion, but he made sure the trains arrived on time at their final destination, the concentration camps and extermination camps.
 
calamity said:
Who was that nut that said all the people dying in the World Trade Towers were little Eichmanns? Ward Churchill. I guess this op reminds me of him.
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Yes, that was him. He was the con artist who lied his way into a professorship at the University of Colorado at Boulder, despite having no qualifications whatsoever, they just wanted a 'native American' on the teaching staff there to make them feel all 'inclusive n stuff', infamous for being a 'Native American' but wasn't, and a big promoter of that smallpox blanket myth so wildly popular with far left tards, and still gets repeated somewhere, long after Churchill was proven a fraud and resigned, a big embarrassment for Boulder's 'academic community'. It's amazing these clowns still have any credibility, but that's the whole point of dumbing down the education system, to make it much easier to perpetuate ridiculous hoaxes on young people.
 
spud_meister said:
So his actions directly lead to the deaths of innocent civilians. What's complicated about that?
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It's not complicated but Eichmann himself was to some extent.

JANFU said:
Right, Eichmann was nothing but someone who kept the trains on time.
Your reasoning and excuse making is right up there with the camps the Nazi's showed to the Red Cross and the world.
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I do not follow you. I made no excuse for Eichmann other than refuting the claim that he was an architect of the Final Solution.

RetiredUSN said:
You sure wasted a lot of words on a guy who should have been hung anyways.
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I am against capital punishment. What I wrote is not a waste of words if it gets even one person to reconsider the nature of Eichmann's rôle in the Final Solution. It is only my opinion but I believe once the Israelis had him in custody, it would have been fitting to keep him behind bars if only to demonstrate that they were different to the Nazis but also for him to live with his guilt.

Unitedwestand13 said:
Eichmann may have been a glorified train timetable clerk in your opinion, but he made sure the trains arrived on time at their final destination, the concentration camps and extermination camps.
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This is true.
 
Oberon said:
Yes, that was him. He was the con artist who lied his way into a professorship at the University of Colorado at Boulder, despite having no qualifications whatsoever, they just wanted a 'native American' on the teaching staff there to make them feel all 'inclusive n stuff', infamous for being a 'Native American' but wasn't, and a big promoter of that smallpox blanket myth so wildly popular with far left tards, and still gets repeated somewhere, long after Churchill was proven a fraud and resigned, a big embarrassment for Boulder's 'academic community'. It's amazing these clowns still have any credibility, but that's the whole point of dumbing down the education system, to make it much easier to perpetuate ridiculous hoaxes on young people.
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The irony is though that the terrorists did hit the World Trade Center because it was the financial center of the petro dollar banking system. If he wasn't such a dumbass, he could have used his 15 minutes to better explain why a radical Saudi national like OBL would consider that his enemy. But alas, another opportunity to educate Americans was lost because "academic" people today want to push an agenda, using sound bites to promote liberal propaganda.

OBL perceived his government to be corrupt and in cahoots with Wall Street bankers. He wasn't exactly wrong. Naive and idealistic, yes. Wrong, no.
 
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calamity said:
The irony is though that the terrorists did hit the World Trade Center because it was the financial center of the petro dollar banking system. If he wasn't such a dumbass, he could have used his 15 minutes to better explain why a radical Saudi national like OBL would consider that his enemy. But alas, another opportunity to educate Americans was lost because "academic" people today want to push an agenda, using sound bites to promote liberal propaganda.

OBL perceived his government to be corrupt and in cahoots with Wall Street bankers. He wasn't exactly wrong. Naive and idealistic, yes. Wrong, no.
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I seriously doubt Wall Street Greed or anything else but his own megalomania and sociopathic personality guided Bin Laden to do anything. He was too far down the inheritance line to have his own little Caliphate so went about building a power base of his own and hoped to take over a country somewhere, and he knew what sort of propaganda sells best among his fellow Islamo-vermin wannabees, and went with that, the easiest path to assembling a gang of homicidal gangsters and mentally ill tards. Carter and Reagan made the U.S. look weak and cowardly with the mis-handling of our Embassy being seized and Saint Ronald of Reagan's Lebanon fiasco, and that perception has been reinforced almost continually since then, and coupled with the retarded 'Globalsim' scam our borders were, and still are, left wide open for just the sort of 'targeting' Bin laden took advantage of.
 
Paleocon said:
Frankly the Argintinians should have launched a retalitory strike against Israel for violating their sovergienty.

Nice show trial though.
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Yes. Early 1960's Argentina was capable of launching a retaliatory strike against Israel. Lol.
 
Heinrich said:
Adolf Eichmann was a complicated man and he was correct to describe himself as a mid-level functionary. The Israeli show trial exaggerated his importance for some reason. He rose only to the rank of SS-Obersturmbannführer (lieutenant colonel) and he never had the authority to make any policy decisions. There is no shame in petitioning for clemency.
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Why bother? The man kept the wheels running on the tracks to the camps, he deserved his sentence.
 
RetiredUSN said:
You sure wasted a lot of words on a guy who should have been hung anyways.
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Hmm

Sounds like typical historical revisionist BS. I have witnessed this before in my studies, the attempt to downplay historical facts. Why? for some reason only they can explain.
 
yankintx said:
Eichmann not only exceeded in his position, he relished the big numbers sent to the camps. Therefore, the forfeit of his life is justified.
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Yes, I agree. But now what do we do?
 
JANFU said:
Yes, I agree. But now what do we do?
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We never forget the victims, and we educate ourselves and our children, so as to appreciate the enormity of the crime against humanity.
 
yankintx said:
We never forget the victims, and we educate ourselves and our children, so as to appreciate the enormity of the crime against humanity.
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True, countries are building HR Museums- But we still ignore mass murder, reasons vary.
 
Sherman123 said:
Yes. Early 1960's Argentina was capable of launching a retaliatory strike against Israel. Lol.
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Did they have a navy?

Did they have any missiles?
 
Ah ... Sherman's Stalker in da house ... this will go downhill fast from here on out ...
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I would argue that in Israel trying a nazi is the exact same thing as assassinating him.

There should've been an international tribunal of non-interested parties convened, unless the whole point was just to slap a happy face sticker on what was a straight up assassination. Eichmann's trial, is pretty much the equivalent of Finches trial into kill a mockingbird. The verdict was rendered long before Eichmann was ever arrested.
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I would tend to agree, except that I don't believe in the death penalty. Assuming I did, Eichmann may have been a scumbag (to put it mildly), but I'm not totally compelled by the idea that someone who orchestrated transports during a genocide is sufficient cause to kill them.

DA60 said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair

No, I think kidnapping him and taking him to Israel for trial was WAY better then just killing him on the spot.
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Yes, as it turns out the justice system exists for a reason, even if the world's spy agencies wants to pretend that that's not true.

Abbazorkzog said:
Schutzstaffel
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So what, should we have executed all one million of the members of the Schutzstaffel? It might feel righteous to do that, but "an eye for an eye" actually, it turns out, isn't the best way to live your life. Note that most of them were not ever tried or attempted to be tried:

"The first, and best known of these trials, described as "the greatest trial in history" by Norman Birkett, one of the British judges who presided over it,[1] was the trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal (IMT). Held between 20 November 1945 and 1 October 1946,[2] the Tribunal was given the task of trying 23 of the most important political and military leaders of the Third Reich".​

There were follow-up Nuremberg trials, which resulted in only ~180 people being tried, and only 24 being sentenced to death. They didn't try 1 million SS members. They didn't even execute most of the people who were at the top of the SS.


Look, it's one thing to not be sorry that Eichmann is dead. It's one thing to think the man was a depraved bastard. It's quite another to glorify how the West "humiliated" this person before we/Israel executed him. That's a pretty vicious way to look at history, looking at it through the lens of "They're evil, **** 'em all to death." That's the type of black-and-white, moral-absolutist, the-ends-justify-the-means thinking which, if left long enough, turns into the same kinds of justifications that were used for the holocaust and similar atrocities. It's just gaudy to be so joyful about the humiliation and termination of another human being's life.
 
Oberon said:
I seriously doubt Wall Street Greed or anything else but his own megalomania and sociopathic personality guided Bin Laden to do anything. He was too far down the inheritance line to have his own little Caliphate so went about building a power base of his own and hoped to take over a country somewhere, and he knew what sort of propaganda sells best among his fellow Islamo-vermin wannabees, and went with that, the easiest path to assembling a gang of homicidal gangsters and mentally ill tards. Carter and Reagan made the U.S. look weak and cowardly with the mis-handling of our Embassy being seized and Saint Ronald of Reagan's Lebanon fiasco, and that perception has been reinforced almost continually since then, and coupled with the retarded 'Globalsim' scam our borders were, and still are, left wide open for just the sort of 'targeting' Bin laden took advantage of.
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Agreed. I was only referring to why he targeted WTC and not say the Statue of Liberty.
 
FieldTheorist said:
So what, should we have executed all one million of the members of the Schutzstaffel? It might feel righteous to do that, but "an eye for an eye" actually, it turns out, isn't the best way to live your life. Note that most of them were not ever tried or attempted to be tried:

"The first, and best known of these trials, described as "the greatest trial in history" by Norman Birkett, one of the British judges who presided over it,[1] was the trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal (IMT). Held between 20 November 1945 and 1 October 1946,[2] the Tribunal was given the task of trying 23 of the most important political and military leaders of the Third Reich".​

There were follow-up Nuremberg trials, which resulted in only ~180 people being tried, and only 24 being sentenced to death. They didn't try 1 million SS members. They didn't even execute most of the people who were at the top of the SS.


Look, it's one thing to not be sorry that Eichmann is dead. It's one thing to think the man was a depraved bastard. It's quite another to glorify how the West "humiliated" this person before we/Israel executed him. That's a pretty vicious way to look at history, looking at it through the lens of "They're evil, **** 'em all to death." That's the type of black-and-white, moral-absolutist, the-ends-justify-the-means thinking which, if left long enough, turns into the same kinds of justifications that were used for the holocaust and similar atrocities. It's just gaudy to be so joyful about the humiliation and termination of another human being's life.
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I think you're taking my message to an unneeded extreme by implying extremism that wasn't in the message you quoted. Although, honestly, judging by how you took a message in which I didn't even suggest anything at all. If I were Eichmann, I would have been begging for the death sentence for maintaining my neutrality at a time whence I bore witness to such mass-depraved desecration of human life. And yes, I am aware he would have been killed. At least he would have died knowing he did the right thing.

Furthermore,

The Eichmann Sonderkommando was attached to the Security Police and the SD in terms of provisioning and manpower, but maintained a special position in the SS due to its direct role in the deportation of Jews to the death camps as part of the Final Solution. When Eichmann's staff was sent from Berlin to Budapest, they specifically came as an established SS-Sonderkommando. Intent on carrying out the Final Solution in Hungary during mid-March 1944 as quickly as possible, the SS-Sonderkommandos enlisted the aide of anti-Semitic elements from the Hungarian gendarmerie and the pro-German administrators from within the Hungarian Interior Ministry. Immediately, the SS-Sonderkommandos ghettoized the provincial Jews and deported them to Auschwitz.
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In the 1950s, Argentinian citizen and water company worker Ricardo Klement was discovered to be Adolf Eichmann, by former Jewish Dachau worker Lothar Hermann, whose daughter, Sylvia, became romantically involved with Klaus Klement (born Klaus Eichmann in 1936 in Berlin). He was captured by Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, in a suburb of Buenos Aires on 11 May 1960, and tried in Jerusalem on 11 April 1961, where he explicitly declared that he had abdicated his conscience in order to follow the Führerprinzip (the "leader principle", or superior orders). Eichmann was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging. Nevertheless, Eichmann was quoted as having once stated, "I will jump into my grave laughing, because the fact that I have the death of five-million Jews [Reich enemies] on my conscience gives me extraordinary satisfaction."
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**** him. There is nothing you can say to me that will convince me that killing Eichmann was morally wrong.

Further-furthermore;

Although, it is estimated that out of roughly 70,000 members of the SS involved in crimes in German concentration camps, only about 1,650 to 1,700 were tried after the war
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Upwards of 37,000 members of the SS were also tried and convicted in Soviet courts which resulted in public hangings or long sentences of hard labor in gulags
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Once again, it wasn't just the US and Israel carrying out executions of Nazis. I think they got what they deserved, no - in fact - I am certain of it. The only regret I have is the other 33,000 criminal bastards escaped their trial and respective punishments.
 
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