Uncovered Documents Tell the Story of Cooperation in Medieval Cairo

spud_meister · Jan 20, 2016

Here's an interesting read: Article Details

About 120 years ago, in a crumbling synagogue in Fustat, Egypt’s original capital and now a section of Old Cairo, a cache of manuscripts was discovered in the storeroom or “geniza.” These papers had been deposited there over many centuries and included letters, wills, bills of lading, prayers, marriage contracts and writs of divorce. There were money orders, court depositions, business inventories and receipts. The most recent deposits were made in the 19th century and there were fragments that dated to the 10th century and earlier.

In 1896, Rabbi Solomon Schechter of Cambridge University stepped into the attic of the Ben Ezra Synagogue and found this trove of medieval and early manuscripts — the largest ever discovered. He had entered the synagogue’s “geniza,” its repository for damaged and destroyed Jewish texts — which held nearly 300,000 individual documents, many of which were over 1,000 years old. Schechter’s discovery, though still being “unpacked” today, forever transformed our knowledge of the Jewish past, Muslim history, and much more. It presents a vivid picture of Jewish life in the medieval Moslem world, and shows how integrated Jews were in that world, challenging some contemporary ideas of an ancient Jewish-Moslem enmity.

DDD · Jan 20, 2016

In a video documentary that I saw it also depicted that Hebrews were paid to work by Faraohs in Egypt. Meaning, they came to work there in their own volition and were not slaves.

Gathomas88 · Jan 20, 2016

spud_meister said:
Here's an interesting read: Article Details

Like in the Christian world, I'm sure treatment of Jews tended to vary from place to place. Numerous historical incidents attest to the fact that Muslims were hardly immune to anti-semitism, or even the occasional "pogrom."

1066 Granada Massacre

The 1066 Granada massacre took place on 30 December 1066 (9 Tevet 4827; 10 Safar 459 AH) when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, which was at that time in Muslim-ruled al-Andalus, assassinated the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela...

...Muslim mobs stormed the royal palace where Joseph had sought refuge, then crucified him. In the ensuing massacre of the Jewish population, many of the Jews of Granada were murdered. The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia claims that "More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day."[12] However the 1971 edition does not give precise casualty figures.[13]

Jews Under Muslim Rule

Although Jewish life improved under Islamic rule, an interfaith utopia did not exist.[9]:58 Jews still experienced persecution. Under Islamic Rule, the Pact of Umar was introduced, which protected the Jews but also established them as inferior.[9]:59 Since the 11th century, there have been instances of pogroms against Jews.[12] Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada.[13] In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages,[14] and in other Arab lands including Egypt,[15] Syria[16] and Yemen[17] Beginning in the 15th century, the Moroccan Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters known as mellahs. In cities, these were surrounded by walls and a fortified gateway. Rural mellahs, however, were separate villages inhabited solely by Jews.[18] The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, were far more fundamentalist in outlook than the Almoravides, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.[19] Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.[20][21] In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.[22][23]

It's rather "fashionable" in academia at the moment to try and paint pre-modern Islamic civilization as somehow being "saintly" in comparison to the West. It's best to take such claims with a grain of salt.

They usually come from historians with a bone to pick with Christianity or Western Civilization in general. That can especially be the case where Jewish scholars from European backgrounds who are looking to "settle" some sort of perceived score are concerned.

jet57 · Jan 20, 2016

DDD said:
In a video documentary that I saw it also depicted that Hebrews were paid to work by Faraohs in Egypt. Meaning, they came to work there in their own volition and were not slaves.

My college Wold History class got on to that subject in discussing the building of the pyramids. The pyramids were the society "job to go to", like the Flintstones getting up and going to work at the rock quarry. There were many different people, prisoners and slaves as well who worked on them.

The subject came up in discussing divisions of labor in a society.

Oberon · Jan 20, 2016

spud_meister said:
Here's an interesting read: Article Details

Actually it was well known that Jews preferred Islamist governments over Christian ones; that knowledge is why the Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese didn't trust Jews and held Inquisitions after their re-conquests. It was common knowledge for centuries, beginning with Jews persecuting Christians in Persia before and after the Islamic conquests right into the 18th century. The last two Kings, of the last Jewish kingdom in what is now Yemen, circa late 6th century right before Mohammed's hordes launched their invasions, left writings and steles bragging about massacring some 40,000 Christians in the Arab countries. I think most scholars have known that for a long time, without the discoveries in the OP. Both of the minor periods of local 'renaissances' erroneously attributed to some 'Islamic Golden Age' were in reality Jewish and Christian 'renaissances', Jewish in the brief 'Golden Age' of Averroe's Spain, and mostly Christians in the Brief and entriely local 'Golden Age' in Bahgdad under the Caliph there, who imported Nestorians from India and Greek Christians from Syria and the West for a couple of short generations of encouraging scholarship.

Eric7216 · Jan 20, 2016

Times change, don't they. In Persia/Iran highly regarded poets such as Saardi wrote about the beauty of Buddhist, Jews, Christians, and Moslems living together.
I guess that religious differences became too easy for political power seekers to mobilize and use to seize power.
But there is no reason why all the different faiths can not live in harmony.

Oberon · Jan 21, 2016

Eric7216 said:
Times change, don't they. In Persia/Iran highly regarded poets such as Saardi wrote about the beauty of Buddhist, Jews, Christians, and Moslems living together.
I guess that religious differences became too easy for political power seekers to mobilize and use to seize power.
But there is no reason why all the different faiths can not live in harmony.

Persians are the great irony in the ME; they are both the biggest threat to peace under the Mullahs, and yet the only culture in the ME that retains a large part of its pre-Islamic culture and civilization, and the latter also makes them the main hope for peace and stability in that region. The rest are basket cases, both to the east of them and to the west of them.

Oberon · Jan 21, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
It's rather "fashionable" in academia at the moment to try and paint pre-modern Islamic civilization as somehow being "saintly" in comparison to the West. It's best to take such claims with a grain of salt.

They usually come from historians with a bone to pick with Christianity or Western Civilization in general. That can especially be the case where Jewish scholars from European backgrounds who are looking to "settle" some sort of perceived score are concerned.

Yes, more or less. Though the attacks began in the 19th century, those pesky and annoying Xians were always a thorn in the side of American elites, but it really took off with the Marxists and Antonio Gramsci's work and propaganda campaign guidelines, which in turn inspired Saul Alinsky and his 'Gramsci For The Beavises and Buttheads' that proliferated on college campuses in the '60's.

Gramsci's Grand Plan

Subverting Christian Faith

The civilized world, Gramsci deduced, had been thoroughly saturated with Christianity for 2,000 years and Christianity remains the dominant philosophical and moral system in Europe and North America. Practically speaking, civilization and Christianity were inextricably bound together. Christianity had become so thoroughly integrated into the daily lives of nearly everyone, including non-Christians living in Christian lands, it was so pervasive, that it formed an almost impenetrable barrier to the new, revolutionary civilization Marxists wish to create. Attempting to batter down that barrier proved unproductive, since it only generated powerful counter-revolutionary forces, consolidating them and making them potentially deadly. Therefore, in place of the frontal attack, how much more advantageous and less hazardous it would be to attack the enemy's society subtly, with the aim of transforming the society's collective mind gradually, over a period of a few generations, from its former Christian worldview into one more harmonious to Marxism. And there was more.

Whereas conventional Marxist-Leninists were hostile towards the non-Communist Left, Gramsci argued that alliances with a broad spectrum of leftist groups would prove essential to Communist victory. In Gramsci's time these included, among others, various "anti-fascist" organizations, trade unions, and socialist political groups. In our time, alliances with the Left would include radical feminists, extremist environmentalists, "civil rights" movements, anti-police associations, internationalists, ultra-liberal church groups, and so forth. These organizations, along with open Communists, together create a united front working for the transformation of the old Christian culture.

What Gramsci proposed, in short, was a renovation of Communist methodology and a streamlining and updating of Marx's antiquated strategies. Let there be no doubt that Gramsci's vision of the future was entirely Marxist and that he accepted the validity of Marxism's overall worldview. Where he differed was in the process for achieving the victory of that worldview. Gramsci wrote that "there can and must be a 'political hegemony' even before assuming government power, and in order to exercise political leadership or hegemony one must not count solely on the power and material force that are given by government." What he meant is that it is incumbent upon Marxists to win the hearts and minds of the people, and not to rest hopes for the future solely on force or power.

Furthermore, Communists were enjoined to put aside some of their class prejudice in the struggle for power, seeking to win even elements within the bourgeois classes, a process which Gramsci described as "the absorption of the elites of the enemy classes." Not only would this strengthen Marxism with new blood, but it would deprive the enemy of this lost talent. Winning the bright young sons and daughters of the bourgeoisie to the red banner, wrote Gramsci, "results in [the anti-Marxist forces'] decapitation and renders them impotent." In short, violence and force will not by themselves genuinely transform the world. Rather it is through winning hegemony over the minds of the people and in robbing enemy classes of their most gifted men that Marxism will triumph over all.

Compare the strategy and tactics recommended by Gramsci and Alinsky with the ongoing fashionable 'Gay Rights' media hoax: THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA -* By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

Gramsci's ideas certainly have worked in many of the current agendas.

spud_meister · Jan 21, 2016

Oberon said:
Yes, more or less. Though the attacks began in the 19th century, those pesky and annoying Xians were always a thorn in the side of American elites, but it really took off with the Marxists and Antonio Gramsci's work and propaganda campaign guidelines, which in turn inspired Saul Alinsky and his 'Gramsci For The Beavises and Buttheads' that proliferated on college campuses in the '60's.

Gramsci's Grand Plan

Compare the strategy and tactics recommended by Gramsci and Alinsky with the ongoing fashionable 'Gay Rights' media hoax: THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA -* By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

Gramsci's ideas certainly have worked in many of the current agendas.

If we imagine the thread topic is the Indian sub-continent, you're the internet's equivalent of Christopher Columbus.

Oberon · Jan 21, 2016

spud_meister said:
If we imagine the thread topic is the Indian sub-continent, you're the internet's equivalent of Christopher Columbus.

Ah, a trolling mod on DP. How Speshul.

spud_meister · Jan 21, 2016

Oberon said:
Ah, a trolling mod on DP. How Speshul.

I'm not a mod. And you're not on topic.

Oberon · Jan 21, 2016

spud_meister said:
I'm not a mod. And you're not on topic.

Neither were you, and you aren't in your last post, either.

PeteEU · Jan 22, 2016

Gathomas88 said:
Like in the Christian world, I'm sure treatment of Jews tended to vary from place to place. Numerous historical incidents attest to the fact that Muslims were hardly immune to anti-semitism, or even the occasional "pogrom."

1066 Granada Massacre

It was not anti-Semitism, but a revolution against a leader. Jews were not the only ones killed during this uprising.. far from it.

Before and after this date, Jews were a part of Muslim society across the Muslim world where they more than often got sanctuary from the Christian world who were persecuting them.

Jews Under Muslim Rule

It's rather "fashionable" in academia at the moment to try and paint pre-modern Islamic civilization as somehow being "saintly" in comparison to the West. It's best to take such claims with a grain of salt.

It was saintly compared to the rest of the world at the time. What is more fashionable is conservative right wingers trying to rewrite history to demonize the Muslim world and to make the Christian history much more non problematic. Next thing is to make the Spanish Inquisition a non Christian thing..

They usually come from historians with a bone to pick with Christianity or Western Civilization in general. That can especially be the case where Jewish scholars from European backgrounds who are looking to "settle" some sort of perceived score are concerned.

LOL and thank you for proving my point.

Like it or not Christians were the ones hunting and discriminating Jews for the most part up to WW2. Hitler was a Christian.

Gathomas88 · Jan 22, 2016

PeteEU said:
It was not anti-Semitism, but a revolution against a leader. Jews were not the only ones killed during this uprising.. far from it.

Before and after this date, Jews were a part of Muslim society across the Muslim world where they more than often got sanctuary from the Christian world who were persecuting them.

You do realize that almost this exact same argument could be used in reference to the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, or basically any other act of domestic genocide in all of recorded human history, right? :roll:

"The Rwandan Genocide was not anti-Tutsi, but a response to political unrest and the assassination of a Tutu political leader. Before and after this date, Tutsis were a part of Rwandan society across Rwanda where they more than got sanctuary from other groups who were prosecuting them."

It was saintly compared to the rest of the world at the time.

The simple fact of the matter is that no, it was not. A lot of very ignorant people simply like to believe it was, because a lot of very dishonest people have told them so.

At best, the Islamic world was simply a bit wealthier and better developed that the West in terms of infrastructure. Where that is concerned, what on Earth would you expect?

They didn't build that wealth or civilization for themselves. They basically stole it from Persia and the Eastern Roman Empire through military force, and then proceeded to simply squat upon the "silk road" and get fat and happy from the constant influx of trade that provided them (until Chingus Khan and his successors gave them a well deserved taste of their own medicine, that is, in any eventuality).

LOL and thank you for proving my point.

Like it or not Christians were the ones hunting and discriminating Jews for the most part up to WW2. Hitler was a Christian.

Which is simply factually incorrect. Muslims were hunting and discriminating against Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhaists, and every other group they came into contact with.

As far as Hitler goes, by all indications, he was roughly as "Christian" as Napoleon, which is to say, not at all. :roll:

Uncovered Documents Tell the Story of Cooperation in Medieval Cairo

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

DDD

Gathomas88

jet57

Oberon

Eric7216

Oberon

Oberon

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Oberon

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!

Oberon

PeteEU

Gathomas88