Thread: Pssst, MSM — About That Fabulous Free Cuban Health Care…

It has always amazed me (okay I lied it doesn't amaze me) how liberals will dump on this country as "unjust" yet cozy up to the worst dictators imaginable. It tells far more about themselves than it does their heroes. They hate America because they think they are the ones that need to lay some "justice" on this country (with justice being their every political whim). What gets in the way of this "justice?" Why the Constitution and more importantly the Bill of Rights. You can't force on people "what you know is best for them" if they have the right to say no to your "justice." That's why liberals are always trying to invent new "rights" to justify their dictatorial ambitions. Healthcare is a right? No, it's a desire by liberals to control YOUR life. What better way than taking over every aspect of your health? It cracks me up that liberals piously tell us to "stay out of the bedroom" (in other words let us keep killing babies via abortion) YET, the now will be able to get in our vaginas, anuses and any other orifice that requires healthcare. You really want the government that intimate with you?

But I know what liberals will say, "Yeah but we let eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil corporations like the insurance companies get that intimate with us." Yeah liberals but I can FIRE them. I can change insurance companies once a year, if I choose (and from time to time have). When the government takes over, where will you go?

I know the next thing liberals will tell us. "You won't lose your insurance coverage, Barack Obama says so!" Yeah, Barack Obama also said we would have a lot more transparency, the stimulus would create jobs, and we needed to worry about global warming. (WRONG)
How’s that hope and change working out for you?

The next thing liberals will tell you is how well government healthcare works in other countries (while at the same time insisting that isn't what Barack Obama wants here (When liberal arguments continually contradict. It means one of them is a lie. Trust me. Obama wants government healthcare here)

Well take a look at the reality of some of that government healthcare in the country that liberals like Michael Moore love so much. Yeah, we need that here. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

And even more unluckily for Castro and his MSM auxiliairies, the internet has pulled a stunning and (to them) infuriating end-run around his traditional MSM defenses. So word is getting out. Which means the story is getting even better (meaning horribly worse) and the rotten egg on the face of Castro’s media courtesans gets even thicker and more malodorous as week chases week.

During that cold snap in mid January, Cuban dissidents snuck out (by internet) a report claiming that over forty patients had somehow frozen to death in Cuba’s Mazorra mental hospital (not far from the one featured in Michael Moore’s propaganda film, Sicko.) Cuba’s Stalinist regime–along with the journalistic valets, eunuchs, and trollops to whom it grants press bureaus and “journalist visas”– were utterly mum on the matter, however.

It took three days (as the word spread through the mostly Spanish language web) but finally the Stalinist regime issued a terse and exculpatory press-release on the matter.

Just last week pictures of some of the dead were snuck out of Cuba, which proved that hypothermia alone was not the cause of death, any more than it was the cause of the death for the prisoners at Dachau or Buchenwald. Horrific malnutrition and savage beatings were plain to see for anyone genuinely interested in the causes.

Needless to add, such interested parties do not include any of the journalistic valets, capons and drabs who have earned “press” bureaus and “journalist” visas from Castro. True to form, these dutifully connived with Cuba’s Stalinist regime, as they have for half a century to hide the catalogue of Castroite horrors.

More here: Pssst, MSM — About That Fabulous Free Cuban Health Care… - Big Journalism

Well, they do it because of ideology and usually only the very extreme (read: Progressive) views want or need to destroy our current system in order to remake the system they feel is justified and fair. One must put yourself in their shoes and understand they feel this country must be make perfect in their eyes. All wrongs must be righted via government, all things deemed unfair must be changed and all people should have all things. Everyone the same. In order to do that, the existing system must be demonized, destroyed or the majority of the populace convinced that such a change is required - then the makeover can start.

The other way is to do what's being done now... little pieces at a time of government take over since government is the only answer and the only power capable of controlling such a vast country. Centralize power, centralize policy and the rest will fall into place. It's not a new and was done successfully in history. Once government is so ingrained and private industry / capitalism is too weak to challenge - the real makeover can begin. But again, this isn't the bloody coup or the claim of a king or dictator - this happens slowly over time, decades upon decades and the tendrils of such a function must be seeded in business, schools (especially schools since training children to accept such things over those decades makes it easier for acceptance later) and manufacturing. When the banks, businesses and manufacturing are firmly in hand of the government (not owned but firmly influenced and aligned) and schools have been teaching children for 4-5 generations about how wonderful government is and how it is the answer, eventually the pioneering and independent spirit can be bred out of the population. What was that line in Braveheart?

"The problem with Scotland is, it's full of Scots. It's time we bring back one of the old customs. Prima Nocta. First night. If we can't drive them out, we'll breed them out."

In this case, it's a little less intrusive. "If we can't convince them, we'll re-educate them over multiple generations." Same eventual result. That's the threory... there are way to many variables to make this a certainty, the first being that over our 250 year history enough of the spirit that keeps us independent still hasn't died off even with the liberal education we all already get. It may be that this country that started as an experiment really won't be turned as easily... then again, that could be totally wrong and given where we are today, it doesn't seem wrong yet.

Originally Posted by liblady

i'm a progressive and have never believed in anything but equal opportunity, not equality of outcome.

have you done a survey, is that how you came by your in depth knowledge of how we all think?

I go by actions, not words. As you know words are cheap and easily manipulated. Actions are more difficult. And while I'd love to lump a term like Progressive into one big pile - we have the ensuing semantic discussion about what is and is not a Progressive - a term easily manipulated and diverted as any other. I can call myself a liberal Democrat or any other term and sit here and defend it for weeks... to what end? What you think is of little concern. What you DO is over everyone's concern and when I say you, not you personally because your simply one of the faithful followers. Progressives in seats of power are more important.

Originally Posted by Ockham

Well, they do it because of ideology and usually only the very extreme (read: Progressive) views want or need to destroy our current system in order to remake the system they feel is justified and fair. One must put yourself in their shoes and understand they feel this country must be make perfect in their eyes. All wrongs must be righted via government, all things deemed unfair must be changed and all people should have all things. Everyone the same. In order to do that, the existing system must be demonized, destroyed or the majority of the populace convinced that such a change is required - then the makeover can start.

The other way is to do what's being done now... little pieces at a time of government take over since government is the only answer and the only power capable of controlling such a vast country. Centralize power, centralize policy and the rest will fall into place. It's not a new and was done successfully in history. Once government is so ingrained and private industry / capitalism is too weak to challenge - the real makeover can begin. But again, this isn't the bloody coup or the claim of a king or dictator - this happens slowly over time, decades upon decades and the tendrils of such a function must be seeded in business, schools (especially schools since training children to accept such things over those decades makes it easier for acceptance later) and manufacturing. When the banks, businesses and manufacturing are firmly in hand of the government (not owned but firmly influenced and aligned) and schools have been teaching children for 4-5 generations about how wonderful government is and how it is the answer, eventually the pioneering and independent spirit can be bred out of the population. What was that line in Braveheart?

"The problem with Scotland is, it's full of Scots. It's time we bring back one of the old customs. Prima Nocta. First night. If we can't drive them out, we'll breed them out."

In this case, it's a little less intrusive. "If we can't convince them, we'll re-educate them over multiple generations." Same eventual result. That's the threory... there are way to many variables to make this a certainty, the first being that over our 250 year history enough of the spirit that keeps us independent still hasn't died off even with the liberal education we all already get. It may be that this country that started as an experiment really won't be turned as easily... then again, that could be totally wrong and given where we are today, it doesn't seem wrong yet.

Where in the world do you get your idea that there is some intentional conspiracy going on over multiple generations or that there is some grand plan?

Most liberals/progressives I know simply see a problem and want to fix it without any sort of end goal in mind.

Originally Posted by megaprogman

Where in the world do you get your idea that there is some intentional conspiracy going on over multiple generations or that there is some grand plan?

Most liberals/progressives I know simply see a problem and want to fix it without any sort of end goal in mind.

I never claimed a conspiracy. It's actually out there in the open. Conspiracies are usually hidden.

Originally Posted by Ockham

I never claimed a conspiracy. It's actually out there in the open. Conspiracies are usually hidden.

Well ok your right about that particular word. But still, where do you get your idea that there is some sort of plan?

Where does the paranoia come from?

All I can see is groups of people trying to put the ideas they think is true out into a greater society, but all ideological groups do that. Whats special about this case?

Originally Posted by megaprogman

Well ok your right about that particular word. But still, where do you get your idea that there is some sort of plan?

I guess I get it historically. I've always thought the liberal Democrats were the same as Progressives but they're not. Democrats generally, and I use that term as a JFK or even a Bill Clinton, really had no plan ... but really worked within the system and really cared about the preservation of the country and it's people. The methods are always contentious politically but it's always been that way since the founding.

Over the last 20 years my opinion is, my observation is things have changed. More radical element of progressivism has donned the clothing and usurped the title Democrat. I believe that's why fractions of the Democratic party have splintered into "blue dogs" which in history were "yellow dogs". I also believe that the addition of what some deem as this radical addition is causing more paranoia than even when Bush was in power. Fears of government control and eavesdropping still are out there because Bush era laws were not overturned. Wars keep going. Democrats (not Progressives) are against it and are disappointed these things haven't stopped. Now additional private take overs of banks, businesses etc., fuel that distrust.

The plan may not actually exist to your point --- but to me, if I asked myself the question: "If I were to consciously want to remake the United States, how would I do it?", I'd position the government to be the only way to solve problems and make it the defacto way to fix what is broken. I'd attempt to convince people that things are broken, that certain company's are evil (read: Banks, Insurance Company's) and use populist methods to gather support. I'd continually say we've tried the oppositions way and it doesn't work so MY way is best - even though I never tried anything like this in my life nor has anyone who works for me (as President Obama is doing now). I would want to make sure we teach children the benefits of a liberal viewpoint and in fact, over the past I would say 30-40 years, K-12 to an extent, and certainly higher education is staffed with a very liberal viewpoint of the world which is taught to young American's going into the world.

If I were to say there's a plan, I'd have to own that and support it but I can't and I admit it. There's no secret group that I know of pulling the strings, making plans with evil intent. I think this is just a minority of powerful people in government and in business who are pulling in the same direction and over the years know it. So they continue and they've been very successful.


(Added): To address the paranoia, it's distrust of government. The paranoia is there from I think all politically active groups. It was there against Bush it's there against Obama. I think it also comes from history because our Government does not have a good track record, from either party. So a Bush will trigger it for liberals... and Obama will trigger it for conservatives.... and I think moderates in the middle can be swayed either way depending on the severity.

Originally Posted by Ockham

I guess I get it historically. I've always thought the liberal Democrats were the same as Progressives but they're not. Democrats generally, and I use that term as a JFK or even a Bill Clinton, really had no plan ... but really worked within the system and really cared about the preservation of the country and it's people. The methods are always contentious politically but it's always been that way since the founding.

Thank you for finding humanity in people you disagree with politically. This is something that is sorely missing from today's political discourse and I applaud you for your perspective.

Originally Posted by Ockham

Over the last 20 years my opinion is, my observation is things have changed. More radical element of progressivism has donned the clothing and usurped the title Democrat. I believe that's why fractions of the Democratic party have splintered into "blue dogs" which in history were "yellow dogs". I also believe that the addition of what some deem as this radical addition is causing more paranoia than even when Bush was in power. Fears of government control and eavesdropping still are out there because Bush era laws were not overturned. Wars keep going. Democrats (not Progressives) are against it and are disappointed these things haven't stopped. Now additional private take overs of banks, businesses etc., fuel that distrust.

I think part of this is fueled by the change in the conservative perspective. In the 50s to 70s (and partially into the 80s) there was a lot of compromise going on between both sides, this seems to be lessening as time goes on. Ultimately, I see the focus on RINOS to be the same sort of thing as those on the left who are disavowing the blue dogs. Both parties are purifying themselves. I think this is ultimately for two reasons.
1. We, as a society, have fewer things to really fight for. We have (until the last 8 years) solved most of our major problems and in that comfort, we have freed ourselves to focus more on ideals rather than pragmatism. We don't have a reality check. This affects both sides of the debate.
2. Both sides are reacting to the other side going through #1 and its creating a spiral of fear and distrust, as you mentioned.

The problem is, because we took our eye off the ball in the late 80s and 90s, we have neglected our country and the current problems are our fault, except, now we are less able to fix things because we are too busy fighting each other.

Originally Posted by Ockham

The plan may not actually exist to your point --- but to me, if I asked myself the question: "If I were to consciously want to remake the United States, how would I do it?", I'd position the government to be the only way to solve problems and make it the defacto way to fix what is broken. I'd attempt to convince people that things are broken, that certain company's are evil (read: Banks, Insurance Company's) and use populist methods to gather support. I'd continually say we've tried the oppositions way and it doesn't work so MY way is best - even though I never tried anything like this in my life nor has anyone who works for me (as President Obama is doing now). I would want to make sure we teach children the benefits of a liberal viewpoint and in fact, over the past I would say 30-40 years, K-12 to an extent, and certainly higher education is staffed with a very liberal viewpoint of the world which is taught to young American's going into the world.

I think this is something everyone needs to be careful of. If a person is convinced that their ideas are the only ones that work, they can easily tell themselves that in order to destroy the country, they should do the opposite.

I know plenty of people on the left who would say the exact same thing you did, only the ideology changes.

However, I do agree with you that there have been more extreme actions lately. But again, I think both sides are equally at fault here. This, to me, is an artifact of both ideologies becoming more purified (and morphing a bit) and the fact that what we are going through is a once in a few generations thing.

Originally Posted by Ockham

If I were to say there's a plan, I'd have to own that and support it but I can't and I admit it. There's no secret group that I know of pulling the strings, making plans with evil intent. I think this is just a minority of powerful people in government and in business who are pulling in the same direction and over the years know it. So they continue and they've been very successful.

I happen to think that there is a cabal of people in government working to remake it. But I also think there are multiple cabals, all with different goals and ideologies. Its one of the reasons government is so messed up, there is no coherent vision. Instead, its a bunch of half hearted measures that don't fix anything because no program ever gets the proper support.