A bitter fight over who can be called 'doctor'

shuamort · 06-08-08, 11:42 AM

That's fine as long as it's prefixed by the word "witch".

Quote:

It took 99 years, but Minnesota has finally given official recognition to the practice of naturopathic medicine, which relies on the body's powers to heal itself.

Under a new state law, naturopaths -- who use everything from herbal remedies to biofeedback -- will be allowed to register with the state and call themselves doctors without fear of running afoul of the medical establishment.

Source

This is shockingly disturbing as it is granting legitimacy to a field which deserves none.

Homeopathy for instance:

Quote:

Homeopathy was founded by the German physician Samuel Hahnemann (1755-1843). He enunciated what remain today the guiding principles of homeopathic medicine, the foremost of which is the Law of Similars: if a large amount of medicine produces a given symptom, then a small amount of the medicine will stimulate the body to combat that symptom. This isn’t a completely crazy concept; modern vaccines use the same basic idea. The twist with homeopathic medicines is that they reverse the usual understanding of dose effectiveness. Mainstream science holds that, generally speaking, the potency of a drug increases with the dose. Homeopathy--in particular, the Law of Infinitesimals--says the medicine’s effectiveness decreases with the dose. The less you use, the better it works! Which would lead one to conclude that it works best if you don’t use any at all.

(Enjoy side video)

Homeopathic remedies can legally be sold as drugs in the U.S. owing to an odd circumstance--one of the key sponsors of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938 was a homeopathic physician, and he was able to get the entire homeopathic pharmacopoeia (nux vomica, arsenicum album, et al) officially recognized. Homeopathy has enjoyed a quasi-protected status ever since, with federal regulators generally taking the view that the practice is harmless and that any attempt to suppress it would likely have political repercussions. There have even been studies in journals with varying degrees of credibility purporting to show that homeopathy actually works. These have been roundly criticized on methodological grounds, and the universal view among scientists is that any perceived benefit is simply a placebo effect--you think something is going to help you, so it does.

Why does belief in homeopathy persist? Well, for most routine, common-cold-type health complaints, it’s not noticeably less effective than mainstream medicine, or noticeably different in its therapeutic approach. People catch "bugs" that are never diagnosed (and which, if viral, have no cure anyway), take some over-the-counter remedy that claims to address the symptoms, and eventually get better. Did the over-the-counter remedy help? Who knows? It’s silly to believe in homeopathic cures, but I’m not seeing that it’s smarter to place your faith in Sudafed instead.

Source

Think these naturopaths are harmless? Look at these couple of articles:

Deaths sound an Rx alert

Quote:

Nearly identical deaths of patients at hospitals in Portland and Washington state recently have health officials suspecting a highly toxic medication used primarily by naturopaths.

Two patients die after receiving naturopathic injection for back pain

Naturopath to stand trial for cancer patient's death

Quote:

man who called himself a naturopathic doctor is scheduled to stand trial for the death of one of his patients starting Tuesday in Jefferson County District Court in Golden, Colo.

Brian O'Connell, 37, was charged with manslaughter after he unsuccessfully treated Sean Flanagan, a 19-year-old who suffered from Ewing's sarcoma, a form of cancer.

We are talking about adults here. Adults who can make their own choices. Those who want to partake with these quacks and those who want to dispense them . I feel sorry for those that fall for these charlatans and lose money, health, and life. But that's up to them. However, with all of that said, the state of Minnesota (and any governmental body) should not recognize any sort of legitimacy towards this.

Summerwind · 06-08-08, 01:35 PM

I couldn't agree with you less. If you compare the overall success rates of naturopathy to "true medicine" and include all the pharma mistakes, all the infections that are introduced in hospitals and doctors' offices (ones that kill/infirm people who wouldn't have died if they hadn't gotten the infections from said sources), and all the misdiagnosies; I doubt that you'd find the success/failure rate to be dramaticallly different from one to the other.

shuamort · 06-08-08, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summerwind

I couldn't agree with you less. If you compare the overall success rates of naturopathy to "true medicine" and include all the pharma mistakes, all the infections that are introduced in hospitals and doctors' offices (ones that kill/infirm people who wouldn't have died if they hadn't gotten the infections from said sources), and all the misdiagnosies; I doubt that you'd find the success/failure rate to be dramaticallly different from one to the other.

The difference is that modern medicine is based on a series of proven tests. Naturopathy is unproven non-science. Malpractice within the western/modern medical community is well-known, and there's no dispute of that, but the fact that there are proven positive effects of modern medicine and there isn't any on the other side should be enough.

Summerwind · 06-08-08, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shuamort

The difference is that modern medicine is based on a series of proven tests. Naturopathy is unproven non-science. Malpractice within the western/modern medical community is well-known, and there's no dispute of that, but the fact that there are proven positive effects of modern medicine and there isn't any on the other side should be enough.

You points are valid, but in the end it doesn't change the facts regarding success and failure rates for those participating. What good do all those "tests" accomplish when it doesn't effectively change overall success rates comparatively? Naturopathy is proven in some people's eyes, they consider themselves the proof of it. Now, I agree that probably their "modern medicine" experiences are fraught with misdiagnosies and incorrect/over medications; and probably if they were to be properly diagnosed and properly medicated, they might change their minds. But since those two issues are (misdiagnosis and faulty medicating) are rampant in "modern medicine," I think that each needs to choose that which works best for them. Just as many have abandoned modern for natural because of problems with modern medicine. . . I have no doubt that when appropriate, many will choose to switch back to modern medicine when it is clear their issues are not being resolved by natural medicine.

You are attempting to make it appear as though people could be more harmed by natural than modern, and that's simply not true. Also you are attempting to suggest that people won't switch back and forth as needed; I think this is also a fallacy for MOST people. Some will be die-hard one way or the other, but most will use some common sense and some personal evaluations to choose what and when.

mikhail · 06-08-08, 02:45 PM

"Alternative medicine health witch doctors only real success is the can spend more time with people and also always tend to tell people what they wanna hear.But the fact is a placebo wont cure cancer and it should be in the mix with real medicine.

1069 · 06-08-08, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikhail

"Alternative medicine health witch doctors only real success is the can spend more time with people and also always tend to tell people what they wanna hear.But the fact is a placebo wont cure cancer and it should be in the mix with real medicine.

Most people would rather have an aromatic jojoba-oil-and-rose-hip massage and
have some healing crystals placed upon their foreheads while envisioning a healing white light than have parts of themselves cut off and toxic substances pumped into their bodies that cause all their hair fall out and make them puke until they feel their stomachs will rupture.

However, only one of these treatments holds the key to possible survival.
There's no reason a person shouldn't have both, if they want to.
But they should understand that only one is actually treating their illness. The other is only for fun and relaxation purposes.

mikhail · 06-08-08, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

Most people would rather have an aromatic jojoba-oil-and-rose-hip massage and
have some healing crystals placed upon their foreheads while envisioning a healing white light than have parts of themselves cut off and toxic substances pumped into their bodies that cause all their hair fall out and make them puke until they feel their stomachs will rupture.

However, only one of these treatments holds the key to possible survival.
There's no reason a person shouldn't have both, if they want to.
But they should understand that only one is actually treating their illness. The other is only for fun and relaxation purposes.

Well if they are paying for it unfortunitly in many countries with national healthcare systems theres pressure by groups to incorporate Alternative medicine in also.Idiots like prince charles over here trying to push homeopathy.

1069 · 06-08-08, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikhail

Well if they are paying for it unfortunitly in many countries with national healthcare systems theres pressure by groups to incorporate Alternative medicine in also.Idiots like prince charles over here trying to push homeopathy.

Really?
Well, it would be a lot cheaper for the government, I suppose, than real medicine.
Hell, you can even practice homeopathy at home all by yourself. Just pour a circle of salt on your kitchen floor, stuff a teabag up each nostril, and hop around the circle counterclockwise on one foot.
It's a very versatile treatment, guaranteed to cure everything from cancer to cold sores.

mikhail · 06-08-08, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

Really?
Well, it would be a lot cheaper for the government, I suppose, than real medicine.
Hell, you can even practice homeopathy at home all by yourself. Just pour a circle of salt on your kitchen floor, stuff a teabag up each nostril, and hop around the circle counterclockwise on one foot.
It's a very versatile treatment, guaranteed to cure everything from cancer to cold sores.

Yea that was chairman maos whole thing with acupuncture.I think its important to keep alternative and regular medicine seperate i worry they take advantage of people when they are at their most vunerable.

1069 · 06-08-08, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikhail

Yea that was chairman maos whole thing with acupuncture.I think its important to keep alternative and regular medicine seperate i worry they take advantage of people when they are at their most vunerable.

That's a valid concern.
My theory is, kinda, I know there are a lot of uneducated people in the world, a lot of uneducated and uninsured people in the US, mostly poor.
In a way, it's their choice. If people want to rip them off and they're stupid enough to fall for it, oh well. This is a capitalist society, after all. We can't tell people that they aren't allowed to market a product or service, even when we know it's bogus. We can regulate the claims they're allowed to make, to some extent... but we can't prevent unethical people from peddling "miracle fat-burning diets", "herbal liver purification kits", "hair loss prevention treatments" made of spirulina and nettle, and god knows what else, any more than we can prevent gullible people from buying such things.

But to allow these charlatans to call themselves doctors.
At that point, the game is rigged, in favor of the scam artists.
It's no longer the dumb people's fault because they fell for it.
It's cheating.