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Thread: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

  1. #11
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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    What you can afford and still live comfortably.
    That's why I said fair and affordable, not "rape their pay checks of every red cent."
    that minimum wage worker who had a half million dollar heart transplant
    what would be a fair and reasonable repayment plan for him
    while also retiring the debt
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    In a free market, companies succeed when they pay attention to the law of supply and demand -- those that supply the most money to the politicians who demand it will get laws to guarantee their success.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that minimum wage worker who had a half million dollar heart transplant
    what would be a fair and reasonable repayment plan for him
    while also retiring the debt
    ahhhemmm the average cost of a heart transplant in 2008 was 747k in the first year.

    Then there is a life time of anti-rejection drug therapy that runs 1.5k to 2k per mnth.

    This doesn't included other considerations like a lifetime of biopsies, specific diet, etc.....

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    How is any of this better than a universal healthcare system? Look at the countries that have it. Costs go down, and no one is turned away. For all our vaunted "best healthcare in the world", Americans are shorter lived and less healthy than our European neighbors. If we put measures in place to help the poorer half of our population stay healthy (such as giving them better access to professional health care), perhaps we can improve on that statistic.
    The word "militant" is applied to religious people when they bomb buildings full of innocent people and to atheists when they speak with a non-deferential tone.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that minimum wage worker who had a half million dollar heart transplant
    what would be a fair and reasonable repayment plan for him
    while also retiring the debt
    Or a young man with a brain injury? Those can cost upwards of 3 million is serious enough. Just fall off the motorcycle and hit your head on the curb, and there you go. Not dead, but being treated fror a long time. Needing real ad long term care.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    How is any of this better than a universal healthcare system? Look at the countries that have it. Costs go down, and no one is turned away. For all our vaunted "best healthcare in the world", Americans are shorter lived and less healthy than our European neighbors. If we put measures in place to help the poorer half of our population stay healthy (such as giving them better access to professional health care), perhaps we can improve on that statistic.
    I think a single payer system is a better system, not perfect but better. In this country, it would have to be two teired though, so those who can afford more can buy more.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    First off, I acknowledge from the get-go the various reasons WHY our healthcare system has become so expensive. I also support individual-driven solutions to the growing problem (I'm being very vague at the moment on purpose).

    However, I've recently been thinking about the individual mandate. I'd hate to be just another "fake libertarian" who claims libertarianism as his philosophy and yet commands a completely different set of ideas. Instead, I'm trying to focus on real solutions that will simultaneously benefit the group, as a whole, as well the individual.

    Almost my entire family, from my father to my mother to my three cousins I grew up with, etc, are all nurses. They're feeling the brunt of the problem in their daily lives. For my father, his pay has actually been declining steadily ever since his hospital group began covering the costs of patients who do not pay.

    My cousin Melissa and her husband Frank are both nurses in LA. Frank works at the county ER and sees immediately the problem of users and abusers. People abuse the system, in plain English. And this statement comes from a guy who wants some sort of universalized medicine. People receive a service, and they don't pay. Obviously, what happens next is the rest of America with health insurance end up paying higher costs for those who don't have any. This is a problem.

    Which brings me to the mandate. We all know that in support of this mandate, advocates have also brought up the individual mandates on car insurance. Those mandates seem reasonable to the vast majority of Americans, and well, even to me. I have always supported a basic, bare-minimum insurance mandate for drivers because before the mandates were in place, lawsuits arising from no-insurance accidents caused a system-wide overload. Endless lawsuits also have a way of financially punishing third party participants. Libertarians, and myself included, strongly believe that laws should protect individual rights but must also consider the well-being of non-participatory third party members. In other words, person A and person B should be free to engage in a transaction of sex and money so long as it does not harm person C (a non-participatory third party).

    If one can support the mandate on basic car insurance that would reduce the level of tort that financially injures third parties (in that case, the taxpayer), then it would be a logical extension to support the mandate on individual HDICs that would reduce the level of financial culpability that financially injures third parties (in that case, the middle class American who does carry insurance).

    The only other option would seriously be to repeal the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, which requires all (or most) hospitals and ambulances to treat anyone regardless of national origin, race, or ability to pay. The EMTALA is an unfunded mandate that has existed since 1986. The individual insurance mandate being debated today would be the funding for the EMTALA. Otherwise, in order to be successful in our endeavor to reduce costs without denying care outright, this seems to be the only option.

    Despite the fact that it encroaches on the individual's personal liberty, it at least ensures that all non-participatory third parties will not be seriously injured because of the careless acts of others. And yes, for the most part, many of these people who go without insurance are careless. But we can debate the merits to that argument some other day.

    Any thoughts?

    I like your post. I think you hit on most every relevant point to this discussion but one, which is the Constitution by which we abide. Requiring licensing and insurance for driving, which is not a right guaranteed to people, but a privilege is different from requiring every citizen to be forced to buy health insurance just because they are alive. The Federal Government has no authority upon which to force you to engage in commerce. Period. Full Stop. That's it.

    Government must exist within constraints. Too often we want government to "do something" and it matters not whether it is allowed to involve itself in the problem.

    The solution that you hint at, the reversal of EMTALA is the way to go. Announce an intention to reverse it, pass the reversal, and enforce the reversal. This eliminates many of the free riders who are abusing the system. The one's who are truly stupid or indigent can be helped by charity on their first encounter with the system and thereafter if they chose to refuse buying some coverage for themselves then their fate is really on them.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that minimum wage worker who had a half million dollar heart transplant
    what would be a fair and reasonable repayment plan for him
    while also retiring the debt
    Obvisously such a person should not get a heart transplant, and instead should be selling a kidney to some wealthy person who requires one
    Conservatives believe the government is incompetent, and seek to elect people who will prove it

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Obvisously such a person should not get a heart transplant, and instead should be selling a kidney to some wealthy person who requires one
    Yes, you clearly show yourself to be a caring person, with other people's money that is.


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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Yes, you clearly show yourself to be a caring person, with other people's money that is.
    Hyperbole is not your friend.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Yes, you clearly show yourself to be a caring person, with other people's money that is.

    And just where in my post did I suggest the government should pay for a poor persons heart transplant?

    In fact I stated that the poor person should not get a heart transplant and instead should sell a kidney
    Conservatives believe the government is incompetent, and seek to elect people who will prove it

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