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I'm having some conflicting views on health care reform...

NO, everyone who has need and quailifies has access to the same help. I'm afraid there really is little difference in the train of throught. And I don't really see those who have lining up to trade places. Do you?

Nice job missing the point. If I have to pay for something that I will never need or don't need its not the same as rent that I'm paying for because I need it RIGHT NOW. If you force me into a system like with UHC you aren't doing it for me, you are doing for them and forcing me into a system that I don't need or asked for. If you make me pay for others healthcare or you are taking my money to pay for them. Not only is the rent comparison bad, its pathetic.
 
Ya know disability is open to everyone that qualifies.

Would you want to qualify for something like that?

You mean would I take the money of others to pay for a service for me? No.
 
You mean would I take the money of others to pay for a service for me? No.

An insurance pool does that.

And I'm willling to bet if you were suffering renal failure you would take advantage of disability and your insurance only covered part or not at all a kidney transplant.
 
Nice job missing the point. If I have to pay for something that I will never need or don't need its not the same as rent that I'm paying for because I need it RIGHT NOW. If you force me into a system like with UHC you aren't doing it for me, you are doing for them and forcing me into a system that I don't need or asked for. If you make me pay for others healthcare or you are taking my money to pay for them. Not only is the rent comparison bad, its pathetic.

You really have a hollow point unless you are willing to get rid of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. And good liuck with getting that repealed.:roll:
 
winston53660 said:
An insurance pool does that.

I never said I supported it. Your goal post changing is humorous.

And I'm willling to bet if you were suffering renal failure you would take advantage of disability and your insurance only covered part or not at all a kidney transplant

I'm willing to bet you don't know me.


winston53660 said:
You really have a hollow point unless you are willing to get rid of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. And good liuck with getting that repealed.:roll:

Another goal post change.

But regardless yes I willing to repeal it.
 
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I never said I supported it. Your goal post changing is humorous.



I'm willing to bet you don't know me.




Another goal post change.

So you would willingly sit back and die of renal faluire rather then use some government (taxpayer) assistance
 
Which could mean it never really gets paid for. And thus, doesn't really solve the problem.

Says who?
Do you have the complete info of all people who are uninsured and the cost of their medical bills?

BooRadley said:
Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, but such simple answers have been thought of before. Even tried. At the end of the day, services were given and not paid for, and expense passed on.

It hasn't been tried but you're automatically dismissive of anything not UHC.
 
I never said I supported it. Your goal post changing is humorous.



I'm willing to bet you don't know me.




Another goal post change.


Is it safe to assume you want no insurance at all?

You go to the Dr pay x amount for whatever it is you need be it a kidney transplant or stitches for a cut?
 
So you would willingly sit back and die of renal faluire rather then use some government (taxpayer) assistance

I will not take help from the unwilling. I will go out and find willing members of society that are willing to help me.
 
I will not take help from the unwilling. I will go out and find willing members of society that are willing to help me.

And if you do not find enough willing people to help you.
 
I will not take help from the unwilling. I will go out and find willing members of society that are willing to help me.
I

I highly doubt a charity will pay for a kidney transplant. A responsible charity will tell you to file for disability. Heck renal failure is asked about on the application!

What they will help you with are things that disability doesn't cover.

And don't forget people at transplant stage are very sick they are not employable.
 
Says who?
Do you have the complete info of all people who are uninsured and the cost of their medical bills?



It hasn't been tried but you're automatically dismissive of anything not UHC.

Who says it hasn't been tried? How do you think medical bills were handled before insurance? And it doesn't take a lot of reasoning skills to know that a young adult, not ye t making millions, who wreaks their cycle or falls while rock climing or is just unlucky enough to have a stroke for some reason will not be able to make payments on the debt occured without some form of insurance. I'm not sure why you see trying to explain that as dismissive, as it seems to suggest only agreeing with you is acceptable.
 
Nice job missing the point. If I have to pay for something that I will never need or don't need its not the same as rent that I'm paying for because I need it RIGHT NOW. If you force me into a system like with UHC you aren't doing it for me, you are doing for them and forcing me into a system that I don't need or asked for. If you make me pay for others healthcare or you are taking my money to pay for them. Not only is the rent comparison bad, its pathetic.

You missed the point about the rent. It was not that taxes are equivilent to rent, but that the thinking in which someone calls something theft when it isn't is the same. So, I think you missed the point. Anyway, I'd have to find the article for you and it isn't that important.

Now: You cannot know you will never need it. But even if you didn't, it still would not be theft. Taxes and services are not equal to theft. Nor is a single payer system, for which you would have the same access as everyone else.

BTW, you do know you are apying for eveyone else right now, and have been for a long, long time, right?
 
Who says it hasn't been tried? How do you think medical bills were handled before insurance? And it doesn't take a lot of reasoning skills to know that a young adult, not ye t making millions, who wreaks their cycle or falls while rock climing or is just unlucky enough to have a stroke for some reason will not be able to make payments on the debt occured without some form of insurance. I'm not sure why you see trying to explain that as dismissive, as it seems to suggest only agreeing with you is acceptable.

Heck medical bills can far exceed the price of an average starter home.

In one day alone I spent over a 100K.
 
Heck medical bills can far exceed the price of an average starter home.

In one day alone I spent over a 100K.

I know. I've worked in the business. And I have family members in the business from all angles, doctors, nurses, insurance. I found the three thousand for my colonoscopy to be excessive. And if they ahd found something that would be more expense. And if we have multiple problems, how fast can that build up? As we have have many more problems when we're older, then what? How long term can we make it then.

I just don't see that plan as workable.
 
You missed the point about the rent. It was not that taxes are equivilent to rent, but that the thinking in which someone calls something theft when it isn't is the same. So, I think you missed the point. Anyway, I'd have to find the article for you and it isn't that important.

What?

.."but that the thinking in which someone calls something theft when it isn't is the same."

I explained why one is theft and the other isn't. You can't just say I didn't cover this crap when I did.

Now: You cannot know you will never need it. But even if you didn't, it still would not be theft. Taxes and services are not equal to theft. Nor is a single payer system, for which you would have the same access as everyone else.

Nice explaining your reasoning. If I pay taxes that go to you and are meant for your troubles that is theft. You are taking my money with force to pay for you. It is the definition of theft. Taxes can and are used as theft. Are they are always theft? No. But that doesn't change they are used in such a way.

BTW, you do know you are apying for eveyone else right now, and have been for a long, long time, right?

I enjoy tangents.
 
First off, I acknowledge from the get-go the various reasons WHY our healthcare system has become so expensive. I also support individual-driven solutions to the growing problem (I'm being very vague at the moment on purpose).

However, I've recently been thinking about the individual mandate. I'd hate to be just another "fake libertarian" who claims libertarianism as his philosophy and yet commands a completely different set of ideas. Instead, I'm trying to focus on real solutions that will simultaneously benefit the group, as a whole, as well the individual.

Almost my entire family, from my father to my mother to my three cousins I grew up with, etc, are all nurses. They're feeling the brunt of the problem in their daily lives. For my father, his pay has actually been declining steadily ever since his hospital group began covering the costs of patients who do not pay.

My cousin Melissa and her husband Frank are both nurses in LA. Frank works at the county ER and sees immediately the problem of users and abusers. People abuse the system, in plain English. And this statement comes from a guy who wants some sort of universalized medicine. People receive a service, and they don't pay. Obviously, what happens next is the rest of America with health insurance end up paying higher costs for those who don't have any. This is a problem.

Which brings me to the mandate. We all know that in support of this mandate, advocates have also brought up the individual mandates on car insurance. Those mandates seem reasonable to the vast majority of Americans, and well, even to me. I have always supported a basic, bare-minimum insurance mandate for drivers because before the mandates were in place, lawsuits arising from no-insurance accidents caused a system-wide overload. Endless lawsuits also have a way of financially punishing third party participants. Libertarians, and myself included, strongly believe that laws should protect individual rights but must also consider the well-being of non-participatory third party members. In other words, person A and person B should be free to engage in a transaction of sex and money so long as it does not harm person C (a non-participatory third party).

If one can support the mandate on basic car insurance that would reduce the level of tort that financially injures third parties (in that case, the taxpayer), then it would be a logical extension to support the mandate on individual HDICs that would reduce the level of financial culpability that financially injures third parties (in that case, the middle class American who does carry insurance).

The only other option would seriously be to repeal the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, which requires all (or most) hospitals and ambulances to treat anyone regardless of national origin, race, or ability to pay. The EMTALA is an unfunded mandate that has existed since 1986. The individual insurance mandate being debated today would be the funding for the EMTALA. Otherwise, in order to be successful in our endeavor to reduce costs without denying care outright, this seems to be the only option.

Despite the fact that it encroaches on the individual's personal liberty, it at least ensures that all non-participatory third parties will not be seriously injured because of the careless acts of others. And yes, for the most part, many of these people who go without insurance are careless. But we can debate the merits to that argument some other day.

Any thoughts? [h=1]
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If we're willing to let people die of treatable illnesses when they aren't able to pay, then we have no right to require anyone to have health insurance.

If, on the other hand, we go ahead and treat the indigent, then raise everyone else's taxes/premiums to make up the difference, then we have every right to insist that no one be a deadbeat.

So, yes, there should be an individual mandate. There also should be a public option, a high deductible insurance coverage that is available to anyone, regardless of income.

How is it that in the richest nation in the world, so called anyway, we have people who can't afford to see a doctor? It's a national disgrace.
 
If we're willing to let people die of treatable illnesses when they aren't able to pay, then we have no right to require anyone to have health insurance.

If, on the other hand, we go ahead and treat the indigent, then raise everyone else's taxes/premiums to make up the difference, then we have every right to insist that no one be a deadbeat.

So, yes, there should be an individual mandate. There also should be a public option, a high deductible insurance coverage that is available to anyone, regardless of income.

People can make all sorts of arguments, and many of them might even be valid. None of that matters though if the Constitution doesn't permit the government to implement a plan. Giving the government the authority to FORCE you to engage in commerce, to FORCE you to buy a specific commercial product, is the craziest damn thing I've ever heard. I'll fight tooth and nail to prevent government having that much authority over people.
 
People can make all sorts of arguments, and many of them might even be valid. None of that matters though if the Constitution doesn't permit the government to implement a plan. Giving the government the authority to FORCE you to engage in commerce, to FORCE you to buy a specific commercial product, is the craziest damn thing I've ever heard. I'll fight tooth and nail to prevent government having that much authority over people.

First, as a libertarian, you are incorrect in your assumption that driving is a privilege and not a right. See Amendment IX and X of the U.S. Bill of Rights. I don't believe it says anywhere in the constitution (including the commerce clause) that individuals do not have a natural right to operate a motor vehicle. I have yet to see any merit in the argument, "driving a motor vehicle is a man-given privilege." Therefore, as a fellow libertarian, you should also realize the commerce clause do not give the federal government the authority to pass any kind of individual mandate, regardless if we're speaking of health insurance or auto insurance.

And repealing the EMTLA is social Darwinism. Given that I'm aware of patients dying today despite the EMTLA, it would be astonishing to see how many would die after its repeal. If you have no health insurance and your appendix starts giving you serious problems, don't expect to be treated until you're two short minutes away from dying. Unless of course the doctor in charge at the moment doesn't mind his third nightly case of pro bono. In many cases, you'll get some antibiotics and kick out the door. They'll tell you to come back when it ruptures.
 
First, as a libertarian, you are incorrect in your assumption that driving is a privilege and not a right. See Amendment IX and X of the U.S. Bill of Rights. I don't believe it says anywhere in the constitution (including the commerce clause) that individuals do not have a natural right to operate a motor vehicle.

A vehicle is the creation of man and it take the work, time and resources of man to create. Are you claiming you have a right to people time, work and resources? I assume this argument isn't new to you, so can you tell me how it has no merit?
 
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And repealing the EMTLA is social Darwinism. Given that I'm aware of patients dying today despite the EMTLA, it would be astonishing to see how many would die after its repeal.

We can test your proposition. EMTALA has not been in place since the Mayflower era, so we could analyze whether the pre-EMTALA era was really a Social Darwinist nightmare or something far short of that scary rhetoric.

EMTALA was passed for a reason, this is quite obvious. If EMTALA is repealed, then it's quite likely that the conditions that prevailed before it's passing will once again resurface. Don't fret though, there are a LOT of liberals around who will care for such people and I'm sure that they, being such caring folk, will come forth with plenty of donations to provide these people with the care that they need. Liberals love people. They tell me that all the freaking time.

Seriously though, as we see with Catholic Hospitals and other hospitals, they were, and are, quite willing to provide charity care when they feel the circumstances warrant such care. A life and death situation would be handled differently than a non life-threatening incident. I believe that a hospital, after giving charity care to a patient on a first meeting basis, has the moral high ground in refusing to provide further care if they inform the patient that in the future he will need to have insurance coverage and they can recommend him to either an insurance company or a charitable foundation which subsidizes health insurance. If the patient refuses to look after himself, then everyone else, meaning society, cannot be expected to be our brother's keeper, and the person must face the consequences of their own decisions.
 
If the patient refuses to look after himself, then everyone else, meaning society, cannot be expected to be our brother's keeper, and the person must face the consequences of their own decisions.

Umm that already happens in the case of heart transplants in the here and now.

ONe has to demonstrate an ability to follow the correct diet.

An ability to take prescription drugs as directed.

no smoking
and limited alcohol intake.
 
Umm that already happens in the case of heart transplants in the here and now.

ONe has to demonstrate an ability to follow the correct diet.

An ability to take prescription drugs as directed.

no smoking
and limited alcohol intake.

I applaud that requirement. Don't you?
 
I applaud that requirement. Don't you?

I don't know if I necessarily applaud it. It is just something I have to deal with.

The diet is the tough one.

And post transplant no more sushi :(
 
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