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Should we just give it all to gun control?

This assumes that in situations of duress and heavy emotional mindsets, people retain logic.



This is not true, and results in failed strategy. You cannot appeal to a persons reason when they are emotionally distressed. Imagine, if you will, a Christian mother and father, who's 4 year old child just died. And their pastor told them to rejoice, and be merry, with a big smile on his face, because, logically, the child is now in heaven, a place far better than here. Now, as Christians, that's true, and logic dictates that the pastor is correct. How, though, do you think those parents will take that comment?

Never has anybody been so far from the truth with a platitude. I appreciate your response and it is somewhat logical but ignores all observable facts.

We do not know much about propaganda and that is not a question but a fact.

I had indicated gun control would use the occasion. Sandy Hook had legislation been ready would have got the US an assault weapon ban. What reason did gun control use?

Let me give you just two examples that show this logic thing is completely wrong. Dunblane and Hungerford of the UK. Operation Snowdrop turned this into a handgun ban. Essentially a leadership of about six people and some compliant organisations that could be harnessed.

Port Arthur Rebecca Peters, George Soros right hand took this event to a ban on semi -autos and a buyback.

Gun control is not and education organisation in that sense and nothing written or said by gun control is for education in the true sense.

You do not fight propaganda with logic any more than logic will convince a gun control advocate or somebody indoctrinated by propaganda. Logic is irrelevant.
 
The problem is, you don't understand California.

Victory can be had in 49 other states, but it will not happen in California for generations. The popular vote margin for Hillary Clinton was 4.4 million people. Over 60% of the voters picked her. What does that tell you about the mindset of the voters?

It would be a waste of time and effort to attempt to change the radical views of those in control of California, and those who are dependent on them. Those in control are rabid liberal/socialist progressives who use fear, hate, and bigotry as methodology to control it's citizens. And they have succeeded.

Were else can politicians pass laws and put forward regulations that destroy business, and harm the most vulnerable families, and yet get complete support and votes for them? What kind of people do you think live here?

Trying to win in California is like going to a School for the Blind to try and find the next Indianapolis 500 winner. It's a fools errand.

Better to focus on what can be achieved, rather than what can't be achieved.

It tell me that 40% are usable people and that is magic odds that requires little work to change.
 
The problem is, you don't understand California.

Victory can be had in 49 other states, but it will not happen in California for generations. The popular vote margin for Hillary Clinton was 4.4 million people. Over 60% of the voters picked her. What does that tell you about the mindset of the voters?

It would be a waste of time and effort to attempt to change the radical views of those in control of California, and those who are dependent on them. Those in control are rabid liberal/socialist progressives who use fear, hate, and bigotry as methodology to control it's citizens. And they have succeeded.

Were else can politicians pass laws and put forward regulations that destroy business, and harm the most vulnerable families, and yet get complete support and votes for them? What kind of people do you think live here?

Trying to win in California is like going to a School for the Blind to try and find the next Indianapolis 500 winner. It's a fools errand.

Better to focus on what can be achieved, rather than what can't be achieved.

You are making the assumption somebody knows how to win. Who is this somebody because if they can win in any other state they can win in California.

What is this wining strategy that is not being applied in California? Hope and pray is about as close as I can guess.
 
The longer we sit and give gun control a free hand to indoctrinate people the worse it will become until we reach the point of no return and that point is not far off.

We simply do not want to see our faults and we cannot win by making mistakes. We have to learn to examine and adapt.

I have zero ability to influence gun control efforts in California, as I don't vote in that state, don't appoint justices or sit on the 9th Circuit Court. The only way those laws will be overturned is via the Supreme Court, and that opportunity should come to pass next year.

I can work to counter propaganda onine and person, and years of efforts have shown that the people I need to influence, regardless of intelligence, are resistant to logic and facts. I don't have an emotional appeal to give them.
 
It tell me that 40% are usable people and that is magic odds that requires little work to change.

Agreed. However, look at the trends. Also, look at the super majority the radicals have in the legislature. Add in the next Governor is not going to be gun friendly, nor will any Republican be elected to any meaningful office. Not for generations.

Only when the inevitable economic collapse comes, will there be a hint of opportunity the people of the state might consider a different course. Until then, the Nations most radical nanny state will maintain total control over it's people via handouts and false promises.

Face the facts, even after the economic destruction of the dot.com bust the state is still buried under, voters have not turned out a single democrat incumbent. For a brief moment there was a ray of hope when a Republican was elected Governor. Turn out he was a total fraud, and simply continued with the crushing economic policies that have sealed California's fate.

Also, consider the last election cycle and the numerous Propositions that passed. Voters double downed on liberal/socialist progressive polices and objectives.

Waste of time and effort to try anything that isn't approved by the Progressive Machine in California. Best to use it as an example of the totalitarianism Progressives want to spread to all corners of the country.

Hold that up, and voters in other states are hopefully bound to take notice.
 
You are making the assumption somebody knows how to win. Who is this somebody because if they can win in any other state they can win in California.

What is this wining strategy that is not being applied in California? Hope and pray is about as close as I can guess.

Of course somebody knows how to win. Look at the trend in State Houses across the country. Who holds the majority of them, Democrats, or Republicans?

Why not look at the strategies that have been applied in all those state?

I'd love to think things could be changed in California, believe me. I'm a 5th generation Southern Californian. My family settled here in the 1870's.

There is no hope at this point. Not when there are 2-4 million illegal aliens, sanctuary cities, Union control of the State Legislature, liberal/socialist progressive super majorities in Sacramento, and radical liberal/socialist progressives living in the Governors mansion.

The next Governor of California will likely be Gavin Newsome. Look up his credentials.
 
Of course somebody knows how to win. Look at the trend in State Houses across the country. Who holds the majority of them, Democrats, or Republicans?

You have a point believe it or not although political wins are short term objectives as elections approach. The gun control ear is long term because gun control does not sit idle after any loss.

So how do they do it?
Why not look at the strategies that have been applied in all those state?

They are applicable but short term wins take huge funding and it is very much a case of money wins

I'd love to think things could be changed in California, believe me. I'm a 5th generation Southern Californian. My family settled here in the 1870's.

The communists have a saying for you that gun control uses, One by one we will convert them

There is no hope at this point. Not when there are 2-4 million illegal aliens, sanctuary cities, Union control of the State Legislature, liberal/socialist progressive super majorities in Sacramento, and radical liberal/socialist progressives living in the Governors mansion.

You know no fight was ever won by giving up before the fight has even begun. It is not an impossible fight nor political other than to punish any politician the embraces gun control. It is really is also a fight that we have truth and facts on our side. We don't have to lie or deceive.

The next Governor of California will likely be Gavin Newsome. Look up his credentials.

What controls politicians? Loss of power = loss of votes = loss of popularity

All Californians have to do is for once in there lives realise government is not going to stop after this and it is time to say enough. Get a bit angry, get a bit motivated to spike some wheels and make a bit of noise. You have seen gays do it and if they have balls big enough. Hammer the media with grievances and letters revealing the facts. Use phone in programs, radio TV anything suggesting debates on the topic. Websites blogs and rope in firearm organisations. That will be your biggest fight. Make it a public talking point and make damn sure the job gets done. Not impossible.
 
I have zero ability to influence gun control efforts in California, as I don't vote in that state, don't appoint justices or sit on the 9th Circuit Court. The only way those laws will be overturned is via the Supreme Court, and that opportunity should come to pass next year.

I can work to counter propaganda onine and person, and years of efforts have shown that the people I need to influence, regardless of intelligence, are resistant to logic and facts. I don't have an emotional appeal to give them.

You are not alone. I am a critical thinker and logic to me is vital. It makes me very difficult to deal with for those who use emotional signals, I simply ignore those signals as irrelevant.

What I can say is DP has been a wonderful experience for me in learning patience, understanding, compassion and empathy. I still really battle with stupidity. Most times I tend to lash out at it but I learn with experience, In that some of the mods here have been wonderful in offering explanations and help.

The best I can do is offerer help and advice or what I do best solve problems. If anybody wants to listen or thinks they have a better idea, I want to know what it is. I have only one objective, to win this fight no matter what the cost,

The most difficult part is telling somebody why their pet theory will fail. so believe me we cannot win in the courts. If used correctly court cases can generate a huge following and sympathy for your cause, Court cases are about publicity not winning. If you get the publicity win or lose makes little difference. Psychologically if court cases are all you have a loss is crushing and difficult to recover from. It demoralises your followers.

Online is the flavour of the day and the more readers the better.
 
You have a point believe it or not although political wins are short term objectives as elections approach. The gun control ear is long term because gun control does not sit idle after any loss.

So how do they do it?


They are applicable but short term wins take huge funding and it is very much a case of money wins



The communists have a saying for you that gun control uses, One by one we will convert them



You know no fight was ever won by giving up before the fight has even begun. It is not an impossible fight nor political other than to punish any politician the embraces gun control. It is really is also a fight that we have truth and facts on our side. We don't have to lie or deceive.



What controls politicians? Loss of power = loss of votes = loss of popularity

All Californians have to do is for once in there lives realise government is not going to stop after this and it is time to say enough. Get a bit angry, get a bit motivated to spike some wheels and make a bit of noise. You have seen gays do it and if they have balls big enough. Hammer the media with grievances and letters revealing the facts. Use phone in programs, radio TV anything suggesting debates on the topic. Websites blogs and rope in firearm organisations. That will be your biggest fight. Make it a public talking point and make damn sure the job gets done. Not impossible.

Look, I agree with what you're saying in the above paragraph. I've donated large sums of money to the GOP in California in an attempt to support their efforts and outreach. I'm a lifetime member of the NRA.

But you can't ignore the "war" to focus on one battle. Lawsuits and other efforts are the only remedies for the radical liberal/socialist progressive efforts in California. Even that is a stretch because the radicals are in the courtrooms as well.

IMO, the only choice is to try to fight the actions of the radicals until the states finances, and therefore the citizens connection to the handouts, inevitably collapse. Only then will the moment of opportunity exist. I will not be living in this state any longer by the time that happens, but it will happen, and people should be ready for it.
 
Look, I agree with what you're saying in the above paragraph. I've donated large sums of money to the GOP in California in an attempt to support their efforts and outreach. I'm a lifetime member of the NRA.

But you can't ignore the "war" to focus on one battle. Lawsuits and other efforts are the only remedies for the radical liberal/socialist progressive efforts in California. Even that is a stretch because the radicals are in the courtrooms as well.

IMO, the only choice is to try to fight the actions of the radicals until the states finances, and therefore the citizens connection to the handouts, inevitably collapse. Only then will the moment of opportunity exist. I will not be living in this state any longer by the time that happens, but it will happen, and people should be ready for it.

First don't assume what I am writing here is personal. It is more general and intended more for others. I very much appreciate the efforts anyone makes and to me that is a fantastic start. I dwell on the negative far to much simply because I see the problems that must be over come as important. That is actually a fault of mine and the steps people take are always a pleasure to see. My first thoughts though would be how to increase the benefit and effectiveness. For that I apologise but I do notice what is said. I pay the compliment by commenting on it which is not see as appreciation. It is to me.

Word of mouth is far more powerful than you give it credit for.

You cannot bankrupt the state by using your funding. ;) You are not the first to think of that. The idiots in South Africa tried that. Eventually the got a court judgement that basically says if governments holds a gun to your head and say relicense or hand it in we will pay compensation. The constitution say at fair value which would have made a very large hole in state coffers. The Supreme court judgement: they were handed in voluntarily and not subject to compensation. Nobody got angry, nobody protested all like good sheep said there is nothing I can do. No leadership the firearm organisation were trying to negotiate with government for table scraps and got nothing.

If people are not willing to fight for their rights, safety and safety of their loved ones there is never going to be a fight.

As hard as I try to get you you see this is our fight you are avoiding that realisation. ;)

I have shown you the only positive use of court cases and that is publicity, Now stop and think why is publicity important and connect the important dots. This is our fight, not some lawyers. Using lawyers is the clean hands approach favoured by elitists so they will not be victimised by government and seen as dissidents. It's self preservation which is why organisations favour it. They don't have to lead or be at the front of public objection and can say they are just making sure the law is correct. Without publicity court cases do nothing to further your cause. They have a minor role to play. Do you see gun control using court cases? Why not? Seriously give an analysis of why gun control does not use court cases.

Without knowledge we lose and acting on what will and can be shown to fail will get the results predicted and worse.

First the NRA is not even defending our rights and ignores the 2A as it interprets it. Let me give you an example a law is suggested of compulsory HIV/aids testing for gay marriages or adoptions, What will this result in?

A law mandating mental and psychological testing of felons to weed out future criminals just like is intended for firearm owners. What will the NRA reaction be?

Do you see the NRA choice of response as ever having done the slightest thing in changing our situation? Actually Obama did more for firearm owners than the NRA did.

Now what has the NRA done about background checks, registration, CCW training and registration permits. Gun free zones and many hundreds of gun control laws?

The only reason for existence of the NRA is the second amendment.

We cannot expect to win with abysmal ignorance. I may be wrong but it seems to me many firearm owners don't want to win this fight if they have to get involved. Yet it cannot be won unless they do.
 
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