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Gunsite

Lutherf

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Oh the humility!

I just finished day one of their pistol 250 class and feel like a total novice. Everything from gear to stance to sight picture to grip to reloads is getting tweaked and every change is a challenge.

So far the instructors have been fantastic. There is at least one instructor for every 5 students and they are on top of EVERYTHING. We've got 18 students and 5 instructors. About 1/3 of the class is female. Several students are law enforcement and the instructors have backgrounds ranging from LE/military training to CIA. These guys are some of the best teachers I have ever come across and that includes the guy who suggested that maybe he should cut my thumb off if I wasn't going to put it where he told me to[emoji3]
 
Oh the humility!

I just finished day one of their pistol 250 class and feel like a total novice. Everything from gear to stance to sight picture to grip to reloads is getting tweaked and every change is a challenge.

So far the instructors have been fantastic. There is at least one instructor for every 5 students and they are on top of EVERYTHING. We've got 18 students and 5 instructors. About 1/3 of the class is female. Several students are law enforcement and the instructors have backgrounds ranging from LE/military training to CIA. These guys are some of the best teachers I have ever come across and that includes the guy who suggested that maybe he should cut my thumb off if I wasn't going to put it where he told me to[emoji3]

I must have missed something. Who are they? And, why are you taking their class?
 
I must have missed something. Who are they? And, why are you taking their class?

It's a firearms training academy founded by one of the top guys in the trade. They've been around for 40 years and it's supposed to be some of the best training open to the public.

This class is essentially focused on gunfighting as opposed to marksmanship.
 
It's a firearms training academy founded by one of the top guys in the trade. They've been around for 40 years and it's supposed to be some of the best training open to the public.

This class is essentially focused on gunfighting as opposed to marksmanship.

I put it together when Cooper's name was mentioned. Misfire in my brain I guess.
 
No.

However, if he's teaching the class I'd love to see the video, since he's dead.

His wife is still alive and active at the academy (at 96 years old). The new owner is Buzz Mills.
 
His wife is still alive and active at the academy (at 96 years old). The new owner is Buzz Mills.

I hope I can be active up to 76 with my busted body. 96 may be a pipe dream, but I wouldn't turn it down if the All Mighty offered it to me.

I've watched videos with him discussing his technique and been through military versions of the training. It's been so long, I could use a refresher.

In our classes, the instructors didn't threaten to cut our thumbs off, they let the slide and the hammer do that for them.
 
I hope I can be active up to 76 with my busted body. 96 may be a pipe dream, but I wouldn't turn it down if the All Mighty offered it to me.

I've watched videos with him discussing his technique and been through military versions of the training. It's been so long, I could use a refresher.

In our classes, the instructors didn't threaten to cut our thumbs off, they let the slide and the hammer do that for them.

I had that "slide bite" issue with an Interarms single stack .380 but now have a double stack Taurus PT638 which fits my big paw much better.
 
Its a top facility. Some of the others include Thunder Ranch, Sigs place in NH, Ron Avery's Practical Shooting Academy, Frank Garcia's Universal Shooting Academy (florida), Bill Rogers Shooting School and my favorite (their instructors win a ton of competitions against the places) The Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Ohio.

Gunsite was probably the first real place to do this sort of training. I am not a big fan of the "weaver stance" but anyone who carries a gun would be well served going to Gunsite or one of the other places I mentioned.
 
I hope I can be active up to 76 with my busted body. 96 may be a pipe dream, but I wouldn't turn it down if the All Mighty offered it to me.

I've watched videos with him discussing his technique and been through military versions of the training. It's been so long, I could use a refresher.

In our classes, the instructors didn't threaten to cut our thumbs off, they let the slide and the hammer do that for them.

It wasn't a slide bite issue. They just didn't like the way I was holding my support hand. I moved that where they wanted and now I'm focusing on that so much that my sight picture has gone to hell. Maybe I'll pull it all back together in the morning.
 
It wasn't a slide bite issue. They just didn't like the way I was holding my support hand. I moved that where they wanted and now I'm focusing on that so much that my sight picture has gone to hell. Maybe I'll pull it all back together in the morning.

The sign of a really good school is one that suggests you try something but doesn't force you to do it their way-just rather to consider it.

I remember one time at TDI and they were teaching tactical reloads. I said that works but I think another way works better. So some new instructor makes a silly comment. So the owner-who knew me well (I had been there many times and when he bought the place and was short instructors-used to come out and help as an instructor) looked at her and said ok Jane we will see how fast you can do a reload under the clock. SO the head instructor (David Bowie-btw his work on Glocks and other plastic guns is top notch) gets out a stop clock and times her drawing, shooting and reloading using the "proper technique" and then it was my turn. (She didn't know I had a 95% on national classifiers in USPSA back then-(A then, now it would be GM) and I was much much faster. and John said-we don't expect people to always change what we suggest, just try it out-and noted some people have techniques that work BETTER for them.

well at some schools this would have meant I'd have made enemies. Instead, during the lunch break the young lady instructor came up to me and asked if I would show her how I did things so fast. I also noted that the "chosen" technique was Better for most people-especially those who hadn't had years and years of competing. But that school is really good because they have open minds.

Some schools have a pet technique and its all they consider.
 
Its a top facility. Some of the others include Thunder Ranch, Sigs place in NH, Ron Avery's Practical Shooting Academy, Frank Garcia's Universal Shooting Academy (florida), Bill Rogers Shooting School and my favorite (their instructors win a ton of competitions against the places) The Tactical Defense Institute in West Union, Ohio.

Gunsite was probably the first real place to do this sort of training. I am not a big fan of the "weaver stance" but anyone who carries a gun would be well served going to Gunsite or one of the other places I mentioned.

Unfortunately, I don't believe Gunsite allows wheel guns, and I have no desire to own a semi auto. I'd be interested in a similar revolver course.
 
It wasn't a slide bite issue. They just didn't like the way I was holding my support hand. I moved that where they wanted and now I'm focusing on that so much that my sight picture has gone to hell. Maybe I'll pull it all back together in the morning.

For me, I'm sure my support hand is wrong, as my left forefinger wraps around the serated front of the trigger guard. It sure feels natural and sights align the way that they should.
 
Unfortunately, I don't believe Gunsite allows wheel guns, and I have no desire to own a semi auto. I'd be interested in a similar revolver course.

that's rather interesting. Other than a girl who was on our college shooting team now working there, I don't have much contact with Gunsite. I wonder why they would not allow revolvers unless they feel their instructors aren't competent to teach revolvers. For self defense, revolvers are still a very viable option.
 
that's rather interesting. Other than a girl who was on our college shooting team now working there, I don't have much contact with Gunsite. I wonder why they would not allow revolvers unless they feel their instructors aren't competent to teach revolvers. For self defense, revolvers are still a very viable option.

Huh, interesting. It's been a few years for me but before a student went to a CLEET (LEO education system in Oklahoma) pistol Instructor class they had to qualify with a revolver. It was always an eye opener to see them use the S&W with speed loaders as fast as most could drop and slop a mag for their semi's.

Guess it depends on where they trained... :peace
 
that's rather interesting. Other than a girl who was on our college shooting team now working there, I don't have much contact with Gunsite. I wonder why they would not allow revolvers unless they feel their instructors aren't competent to teach revolvers. For self defense, revolvers are still a very viable option.

The first guns I ever bought with my own money were a pair of SA Colts. I learned to shoot handguns with them. I've never got used to semi's. Probably never will.
 
Huh, interesting. It's been a few years for me but before a student went to a CLEET (LEO education system in Oklahoma) pistol Instructor class they had to qualify with a revolver. It was always an eye opener to see them use the S&W with speed loaders as fast as most could drop and slop a mag for their semi's.

Guess it depends on where they trained... :peace

good point-a good revolver shooter will be faster than the most auto shooters on a reload though the top auto shooters have a bit of an advantage. But if you use "moon clips" on a revolver that has been designed or modified to use them or those safariland spring loaded "Comp III" speed loaders, the difference between autos and revolver is pretty negligible. I am sure you have seen this but others may have not. this is with moon clips

 
The first guns I ever bought with my own money were a pair of SA Colts. I learned to shoot handguns with them. I've never got used to semi's. Probably never will.

I am a SASS life member though I don't shoot that stuff anymore but I remember watching some really good national class cowboy shooters and they can shoot those six shooters pretty fast. (there was great Miami vice with Willie Nelson as a Texas Ranger hunting down thugs who killed his DEA agent son, and he shot it out with gangstas using his colt peacemaker)

its the reloads that are tough with a SA revolver-which is why most steel matches require you do the reload with a second pistol!
 
Huh, interesting. It's been a few years for me but before a student went to a CLEET (LEO education system in Oklahoma) pistol Instructor class they had to qualify with a revolver. It was always an eye opener to see them use the S&W with speed loaders as fast as most could drop and slop a mag for their semi's.

Guess it depends on where they trained... :peace
My experience with speed loaders was that those that were training to reload quickly were often sloppy to horrible with their last shot, and usually their last 2 shots as their mind was already on the reload. Taught properly it would be fire, cover, reload, reengage. I dont know how well that would work in some of the tactical shooting classes.

I have always loved Clint Smith's writing and training scenarios. If I had a bucket list it would probably only have 2 things left on it. Clapton...and Thunder Ranch.

"No one cares."
 
I am a SASS life member though I don't shoot that stuff anymore but I remember watching some really good national class cowboy shooters and they can shoot those six shooters pretty fast. (there was great Miami vice with Willie Nelson as a Texas Ranger hunting down thugs who killed his DEA agent son, and he shot it out with gangstas using his colt peacemaker)

its the reloads that are tough with a SA revolver-which is why most steel matches require you do the reload with a second pistol!

There's a video of a very fast SASS shooter who shoots 24 aimed shots from two revolvers, a lever action rifle and a single round fed pump shotgun in 14 seconds. I use it to point out that it doesn't take a semi auto firearm to shoot a significant number of shots in a short time. 19th century weapons work just fine.
 
My experience with speed loaders was that those that were training to reload quickly were often sloppy to horrible with their last shot, and usually their last 2 shots as their mind was already on the reload. Taught properly it would be fire, cover, reload, reengage. I dont know how well that would work in some of the tactical shooting classes. I have always loved Clint Smith's writing and training scenarios. If I had a bucket list it would probably only have 2 things left on it. Clapton...and Thunder Ranch. "No one cares."

My experience with pistol shooters in general is "you can't miss fast enough"... ;)

High cap mags can breed a pray and spray mentality in semi shooters, many times they are fixated on getting off the first shot, making that shot count is of secondary importance- they got 16 more... :roll:

Mag shooters often suffer from the same slop facing a tactical reload, set-up the drill so a tactical reload is required and the student can lose his focus. (IMO this is why high cap mags are popular, less skill needed as the reload under stress is far rarer.) Take the anti body armor drill (two to the chest- one to the head), many students can shoot a sweet pattern on COM but muff the head shot due to mental error (the target is now above the 'usual' target area and appears to be much smaller than an entire chest)

The 7Ps apply here- Proper prior practice prevents piss poor performance- when a student muffs the tactical reload- no matter the weapon system- it is 90% due to a lack of the 7Ps.

One last thought- many have been given credit for this saying (or variations there of)- "An amateur practices til they get it right, a professional practices til they can't get it wrong"

I'll take credit for this last thought- "A tested veteran knows you can ALWAYS get it wrong"

So never stop practicing and always remember, even if you do a most excellent triple hammer COM on the bad guy he can still kill you. Real deal isn't like target shooting, your 'target' can still kill you even if you have killed him... :peace
 
My experience with pistol shooters in general is "you can't miss fast enough"... ;)

High cap mags can breed a pray and spray mentality in semi shooters, many times they are fixated on getting off the first shot, making that shot count is of secondary importance- they got 16 more... :roll:

Mag shooters often suffer from the same slop facing a tactical reload, set-up the drill so a tactical reload is required and the student can lose his focus. (IMO this is why high cap mags are popular, less skill needed as the reload under stress is far rarer.) Take the anti body armor drill (two to the chest- one to the head), many students can shoot a sweet pattern on COM but muff the head shot due to mental error (the target is now above the 'usual' target area and appears to be much smaller than an entire chest)

The 7Ps apply here- Proper prior practice prevents piss poor performance- when a student muffs the tactical reload- no matter the weapon system- it is 90% due to a lack of the 7Ps.

One last thought- many have been given credit for this saying (or variations there of)- "An amateur practices til they get it right, a professional practices til they can't get it wrong"

I'll take credit for this last thought- "A tested veteran knows you can ALWAYS get it wrong"

So never stop practicing and always remember, even if you do a most excellent triple hammer COM on the bad guy he can still kill you. Real deal isn't like target shooting, your 'target' can still kill you even if you have killed him... :peace
I agree. I believe I trained my kids better than that. The best examples of what NOT to do is always found on the range. Its fun watching people crank off 15 rounds in 4 seconds and not hit anything. You can point that out to impressionable youth all day long. Similarly...I believe I effectively indoctrinated my kids (and my wife) on shooting the subject, not the target. You can spend 4-6 seconds steadying your aim to crank off a single shot at the bulls-eye. You have to get the gun raised, front sight center mass, and engage.

We still go out and have fun target shooting. Thats great for weapon familiarization and teaches good skills like not rocking into shots. We play poker and do clays and pin shooting. Hell...the day after Thanksgiving there had to be 300-400 of us spread out on a BLM range for hours having a blast. But defensive shooting is radically different.

I really miss shooting my old Rossi .38 Special snubbie. I loaned it out to a friend who then lost it in a divorce. I have 2 revolvers now...a .22 magnum NA Arms mini and a S&W .357 Highway Patrolman. Great guns for what they do.
 
There's a video of a very fast SASS shooter who shoots 24 aimed shots from two revolvers, a lever action rifle and a single round fed pump shotgun in 14 seconds. I use it to point out that it doesn't take a semi auto firearm to shoot a significant number of shots in a short time. 19th century weapons work just fine.
True...but most people arent Jerry Mikulek.
 
True...but most people arent Jerry Mikulek.

True, but this guy wasn't either. He did take advantage of the New York reload, and as long as that option exists, no magazine limit will have a measurable effect on mass shootings. He could draw a revolver and fire five shots single action in less than 3 seconds.
 
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