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Another reason why most cops favor CCW licenses for honest citizens

flogger said:
Your FBI cites 269 in total for 2015 which when you set it against the 33,599 gun deaths certainly puts the US firearms insanity into sharp relief
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WTF is the relevance of this piece of propaganda trash? It has been refuted a dozen times and you have no valid answer for that desist in using this lie. I'm not sure why you have to lie but you do a heck of a lot of it.
 
flogger said:
Evidently you are wrong the US had 33,599 gun deaths in 2015. Based on your figure 330 million guns thats one gun death for every 9820 guns in circulation per year

The UK had 29 gun deaths in 2015. Based on 4 million guns Thats one gun death for every 137,930 guns in circulation per year

Before the inevitable bleat that most of your gun deaths are suicides it has to be remembered that most of ours are too

Simple math effectively puts an end to this desperate hair splitting exercise
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Do not be asinine. You cannot include civilian arms unless you can prove it was civilian arms responsible.

Simple math say 29 deaths from zero handguns = well you write the figure. It does show the stupidity of your math. I think your claim just got shafted by that hair.

Now the US figure contains how many guns in illegal possession? You cannot count those as gun control says it is civilian arms that are the problem and civilian arms must be limited. If criminal arms are the problem lets have your plan to disarm criminals.

If you can split hairs with this idiotic gun crap so can anyone else. Are you willing to stop using you gun cherry picking?
 
flogger said:
OK lets go with those based on your numbers of guns for both nations

Around 8500 of your gun deaths in 2015 are homicides that represents one gun homicide per 39,000 guns in circulation

We had 7 gun homicides last year which represents one gun homicide per 570,000 guns in circulation

Either way the US figures be it overall gun deaths or just gun homicides are per capita vastly worse than ours



And I know you are in total denial on this issue given this is the third time you've used red tape as an excuse for doing nothing, even when it comes to the most modest of proposals
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You know that those 7 homicide were by handgun of which civilians own zero.

Your figures are wrong.

And https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/21/england-wales-homicides-rise-knife-gun-crime

The number of homicides in England and Wales rose by 71 to 574 in the 12 months to September 2015 - an increase of 14% fuelled by rises in knife and gun crime, official statistics show.

And this gives just some idea of how much massaging the police and government do.Murders in the UK

Count the reported "gun homicides" for 2013.

Never in my life have I seen the brutal disregard gun control advocates have for citizens lives. That they knowingly endanger our most precious things our children by turning schools into safe shooting galleries making them the place of choice for mass murderers. They lie so much and the BS never stops it is like a river of excrement flowing from their mouths. The record of firearm owners is second to none and cannot be tarnished by these pedlars of lies and uncaring of anything but themselves. Selfish dangerous deluded people. Public enemy number one.
 
flogger said:
Overall crime here is 60% less than it was before the gun ban so we must be doing something right .



Yet despite locking up more people per capita than any other nation on earth you are still by far the most violent developed country simply because of your guns

International Comparison '.org': Crime and Incarceration Statistics per Country
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Can you please tell us how many guns are in your nation and in the other ethnocentric nations you have listed in the past?


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blackjack50 said:
Can you please tell us how many guns are in your nation and in the other ethnocentric nations you have listed in the past?
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According to Rucker 61 we have 4 million guns in the UK and 330 million in the US making homicides per firearm per annum nearly 15 times more likely in the US than the UK.

You also have 125 gun deaths for every defensive shooting
 
flogger said:
According to Rucker 61 we have 4 million guns in the UK and 330 million in the US making homicides per firearm per annum nearly 15 times more likely in the US than the UK.

You also have 125 gun deaths for every defensive shooting
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Puppy poop and propaganda.

How many firearms of the type used in crime do your citizens have?

It is your claim guns cause crime, then obviously the gun type that do that better are the guns used in crime. We know for instance you claim military, police and government arms are devoid of this ability. How you tell them apart remains a mystery you must still explain.

Now divide your corrected for government reductions figure with each type of relevant citizens arms. Do the same for the USA. You probably have not heard of normalisation for contributory factors claimed but that is going to change until you can show guns have no influence.

As for you false claims of utopia in The UK you have an infinite number of gun deaths in the UK for every defensive shooting unless you can prove otherwise.

I remind you of the abysmal record
 

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flogger said:
According to Rucker 61 we have 4 million guns in the UK and 330 million in the US making homicides per firearm per annum nearly 15 times more likely in the US than the UK.

You also have 125 gun deaths for every defensive shooting
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That isn't enough data to draw your conclusion. What about all the other mostly white/ European nations minus the one westernized Asian nation?


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Crimefree said:
Puppy poop and propaganda.

How many firearms of the type used in crime do your citizens have?

It is your claim guns cause crime, then obviously the gun type that do that better are the guns used in crime. We know for instance you claim military, police and government arms are devoid of this ability. How you tell them apart remains a mystery you must still explain.

Now divide your corrected for government reductions figure with each type of relevant citizens arms. Do the same for the USA. You probably have not heard of normalisation for contributory factors claimed but that is going to change until you can show guns have no influence.

As for you false claims of utopia in The UK you have an infinite number of gun deaths in the UK for every defensive shooting unless you can prove otherwise.

I remind you of the abysmal record
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Good points. The fact is, England completely banned handguns and that did nothing to decrease gun violence. It was a cowardly attempt to pretend they had done something
 
flogger said:
What a surprise !!



What about you stop moving the goalposts until you can get a number you like :wink:
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I've never once moved the goalposts. I'm teaching you how statistics work. You have 4 pieces of data and you are trying to turn that into a theory. Your hypothesis does NOT have enough proof. And I can disprove it swiftly:

Why do you have a higher murder rate than Norway? Norway is like number 10 in numbers of guns per capita in the world.


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flogger said:
Hmmmm.......

https://rayrayallday.com/2013/01/11...rates-depends-on-definition-of-violent-crime/
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Hmm!! What has the way violent crime is defined got to do with convictions?

Once again you have simply posed a refuted claim and a newspaper article at that as proof. You are trolling and baiting. Present some solid evidence and show the difference using US methods would make. O you can apply UK fudging to the US figure but desist making latently false comparisons when you know full well it is apples and wheelbarrows. That is dishonesty and using known lies.

When can we expect to see the corrected figures?
 
flogger said:
Yeah right. In case you missed it (as indeed you must) here is the total debunking of this nonsense :lol:
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You have debunked nothing by referring to a newspaper report. I see no comparison and the fact homicide is not counted unless there is a conviction and other equally irrelevant reasons. It's fudging the real number and you will not give those. You cannot compare figures from a country that lies and hides.
the facts with the US figures. Will you now stop the falsification of claims and accept your claim has been refuted?

Dishonesty and known falsity from beginning to end

Total gun deaths 2001 = 96
Total gun deaths 2015 = 29
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And what is the meaning of these figures? What is the relevancy? What do gun deaths have to do with this?
What type of firearm? It is important because if those are handguns any claim you make will be even more worthless.

Your ban has has no impact on violent crime. None what so ever. You know that for a fact because you cannot and have not refuted it. The supply of guns to criminals has not decreased, crime has not decreased and public safety has not increased. You have to look elsewhere for the reasons.
 
Militant_Vegan_ said:
wow, total gun deaths for the whole country??
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Nope you cannot trust UK figures as they are so mangled by the police and home office. It reflects only CONVICTIONS and if there was more than one on the premises only one if there is a conviction will be recorded. There is a host of exclusionary reasons in there faked crime reports. Flogger only reports the faked figures and refuses to give the actual figures.

The home office set about changing crime reporting when it became known that UK crime in every category with the exception of rape and murder exceeded US crime rates. With a large degree of egg on its face government did not want its totally useless handgun ban exposed. Solution change the reporting methods and send out troops of government agents to flood the social groups, discussion forums and bloggs with propaganda and confusion.
 
TurtleDude said:
Good points. The fact is, England completely banned handguns and that did nothing to decrease gun violence. It was a cowardly attempt to pretend they had done something
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UK started fudging the crime figure when it became known after the FBI report that UK crime in every category except rape and murder was higher. That rape and murder were fast catching up as well. The methods kept changing until they got acceptable results. Nice honest bunch huh!

Anyone who quotes UK crime figures and compares them is trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.
 
Crimefree said:
What has gun ownership got to do with it pray tell.
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That was the implication in the response I was responding to, supposedly low "crime" is caused by high levels of gun ownership...but yet in the EU states, there is low levels of gun ownership and low levels of assault...ergo, the argument made is baseless.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
That was the implication in the response I was responding to, supposedly low "crime" is caused by high levels of gun ownership...but yet in the EU states, there is low levels of gun ownership and low levels of assault...ergo, the argument made is baseless.
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What you claim is absolutely not true but to gun control who have an array of false comparisons they can make by quoting cross country figures, it is a godsend. People simply do not know what influences crime rates so they believes these charlatans and liars. These cross country comparisons actually show there is not even correlation let alone causality. If you really want to see some back peddling mention Switzerland. Note the Swiss firearm figures do not include military firearms where every fit male citizen between the ages of 18 and 43 has a military rifle at the least. Apparently these rifles have been trained not to influence people to do bad things. How is never disclosed. Perhaps the military have a secret incantation that banishes the devil in the gun that causes these claimed things. Japan virtually has no citizen firearms, around 10,000 mostly shotgun has equally low rates of crime. Proving that guns do not have any influence at all. And that is the only conclusion such cross country comparisons can give.

The reason for the choice of gun crime is really simple. Would you expect a country that had a low vehicle ownership to have a high vehicle accident or vehicle death rate? Bias and cherry picking are gun controls chosen methods of proof. What an opportunity the US is with its high rate of firearm ownership. It's like Christmas for gun control lies. Ask a gun control advocate to normalise for crime gun type in each country and watch them run.

Off hand there are two excellent sources of cross country comparisons, David Kopel; The Samurai, the Mountie and the Cowboy and Jeff Miron violence, guns, and drugs: a cross-country analysis - JStor Both need to be paid for.

A good free publication is Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? by Kates and Mauser Google will find the pdf

A good primer is Comparing murder rates and gun ownership across countries - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center which discusses most of the points of error.

A bit more study is needed on this complex subject.
 
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blackjack50 said:
I've never once moved the goalposts. I'm teaching you how statistics work. You have 4 pieces of data and you are trying to turn that into a theory. Your hypothesis does NOT have enough proof. And I can disprove it swiftly:

Why do you have a higher murder rate than Norway? Norway is like number 10 in numbers of guns per capita in the world.
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But despite that why is it Norway has nearly eight times the number of gun deaths the UK has ? How much better still would Norways figures look were it not for its guns ?
 
Crimefree said:
UK started fudging the crime figure when it became known after the FBI report that UK crime in every category except rape and murder was higher. That rape and murder were fast catching up as well. The methods kept changing until they got acceptable results. Nice honest bunch huh!

Anyone who quotes UK crime figures and compares them is trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes.
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I think the British government realizes its cowardly and impotent response to Dunblane was pretty stupid, so they have tried to cover up their bed wetting with fraud
 
Crimefree said:
Nope you cannot trust UK figures as they are so mangled by the police and home office. It reflects only CONVICTIONS and if there was more than one on the premises only one if there is a conviction will be recorded. There is a host of exclusionary reasons in there faked crime reports. Flogger only reports the faked figures and refuses to give the actual figures.

The home office set about changing crime reporting when it became known that UK crime in every category with the exception of rape and murder exceeded US crime rates. With a large degree of egg on its face government did not want its totally useless handgun ban exposed. Solution change the reporting methods and send out troops of government agents to flood the social groups, discussion forums and bloggs with propaganda and confusion.
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Just for my own recording...where would one find this sourced? I'd like to read about it. :)

I do know they also don't record for people under the age 16.


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flogger said:
But despite that why is it Norway has nearly eight times the number of gun deaths the UK has ? How much better still would Norways figures look were it not for its guns ?
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Lmao!!! And there it is. Your obsession exposed. Your lies shown. I've demonstrated a nation with more guns and less murder. Your only resort? To disorder the actual facts. I've soundly defeated your conclusion. You are dismissed.


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blackjack50 said:
Lmao!!! And there it is. Your obsession exposed. Your lies shown. I've demonstrated a nation with more guns and less murder. Your only resort? To disorder the actual facts. I've soundly defeated your conclusion. You are dismissed.
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Why not just answer my question ? Why has Norway eight times the per capita gun deaths of the UK ?
 
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