• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gunsmiths vs Manufacturers

TurtleDude

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
281,619
Reaction score
100,389
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
One of my nephews, mid 20s, spent 10 years of his life hoping to be a custom gunsmith. Earned a degree in mechanical engineering, took additional classes in gunsmithing, invested in expensive tools only to see that career path ruined when Obama-through executive order (a suit is pending on this brought by the NRA-ILA)-made many gunsmiths who do custom work "manufacturers" rather than gunsmiths. This mean that a license that was a couple hundred bucks went to several thousand and the paperwork was idiotic. Forcing many such people out of the business.

HOpefully Trump overturns the Obama administration's many Eos on guns. Another one that we need to get rid of-some of our allies have lots of well taken care of MI Garand Rifles and MI carbines we sold them or gave them several decades ago.. These obsolete (militarily) but highly desired by collectors and shooters, were going to be reimported into the USA. But Obama, lying as usual-claimed that "he didn't want these weapons of war on our streets causing carnage" and through EO prevented that reimportation

our own government sold hundreds of thousands of these firearms to private citizens. and guess what-in 30 years as a prosecutor, I have never come across any evidence that a GARAND rifle was used in a murder in the USA. And while a few MI carbines might have been, its been rather rare.

that EO should be thrown out
 
TurtleDude said:
One of my nephews, mid 20s, spent 10 years of his life hoping to be a custom gunsmith. Earned a degree in mechanical engineering, took additional classes in gunsmithing, invested in expensive tools only to see that career path ruined when Obama-through executive order (a suit is pending on this brought by the NRA-ILA)-made many gunsmiths who do custom work "manufacturers" rather than gunsmiths. This mean that a license that was a couple hundred bucks went to several thousand and the paperwork was idiotic. Forcing many such people out of the business.

HOpefully Trump overturns the Obama administration's many Eos on guns. Another one that we need to get rid of-some of our allies have lots of well taken care of MI Garand Rifles and MI carbines we sold them or gave them several decades ago.. These obsolete (militarily) but highly desired by collectors and shooters, were going to be reimported into the USA. But Obama, lying as usual-claimed that "he didn't want these weapons of war on our streets causing carnage" and through EO prevented that reimportation

our own government sold hundreds of thousands of these firearms to private citizens. and guess what-in 30 years as a prosecutor, I have never come across any evidence that a GARAND rifle was used in a murder in the USA. And while a few MI carbines might have been, its been rather rare.

that EO should be thrown out
Click to expand...

I'm going to ask my Representative for legislation removing suppressors and SBRs from NFA 1934.
 
Rucker61 said:
I'm going to ask my Representative for legislation removing suppressors and SBRs from NFA 1934.
Click to expand...

The 1934 NFA-at least in terms of Firearms (machine guns, SBRs) and suppressors, needs to be rescinded. As to stuff like grenades and mortars, bazookas and rocket launchers-I have no problem with it if the constitution is amended to give the federal government valid power
 
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.
 
TurtleDude said:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.
Click to expand...

Not sure where the violent crime prevention happens here.
 
TurtleDude said:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.
Click to expand...
That is crazy, Imagine if they applied the same standard to another itemized inventory item, cars, Do you assign a new vin number if they machine the rotors?
 
Rucker61 said:
Not sure where the violent crime prevention happens here.
Click to expand...

It was designed to screw over gun owners and gunsmiths. Threading a barrel to put a compensator on it makes you pay thousands for a license. Its idiotic
 
longview said:
That is crazy, Imagine if they applied the same standard to another itemized inventory item, cars, Do you assign a new vin number if they machine the rotors?
Click to expand...

This is the sort of crap that the average gun restrictionist doesn't know about and which the hard core gun banners support.
 
TurtleDude said:
This is the sort of crap that the average gun restrictionist doesn't know about and which the hard core gun banners support.
Click to expand...
Stuff like that only validates that the goal is to restrict all private gun ownership.
 
longview said:
Stuff like that only validates that the goal is to restrict all private gun ownership.
Click to expand...

of course, my nephew's specialty was building guns for 3G competitions and that often meant putting compensators on pistols. well the idiots in the Obama administration claimed that's manufacturing.

time for that nonsense to be 86d
 
TurtleDude said:
of course, my nephew's specialty was building guns for 3G competitions and that often meant putting compensators on pistols. well the idiots in the Obama administration claimed that's manufacturing.

time for that nonsense to be 86d
Click to expand...
Since all manufactured guns have a serial number, I would think it would have to be issued a new serial number to be re-manufactured.
If the original serial number is carried forward, no manufacturing occurred.
But then I am thinking logically!
 
Colion Noir of the NRA said today that the time for defending the 2A is over, now its time to go on the offensive. Constitutional carry, repeal of bans/limits/registrations, no stamp for SBRs or suppressors.

A boy can dream...
 
TurtleDude said:
One of my nephews, mid 20s, spent 10 years of his life hoping to be a custom gunsmith. Earned a degree in mechanical engineering, took additional classes in gunsmithing, invested in expensive tools only to see that career path ruined when Obama-through executive order (a suit is pending on this brought by the NRA-ILA)-made many gunsmiths who do custom work "manufacturers" rather than gunsmiths. This mean that a license that was a couple hundred bucks went to several thousand and the paperwork was idiotic. Forcing many such people out of the business.

HOpefully Trump overturns the Obama administration's many Eos on guns. Another one that we need to get rid of-some of our allies have lots of well taken care of MI Garand Rifles and MI carbines we sold them or gave them several decades ago.. These obsolete (militarily) but highly desired by collectors and shooters, were going to be reimported into the USA. But Obama, lying as usual-claimed that "he didn't want these weapons of war on our streets causing carnage" and through EO prevented that reimportation

our own government sold hundreds of thousands of these firearms to private citizens. and guess what-in 30 years as a prosecutor, I have never come across any evidence that a GARAND rifle was used in a murder in the USA. And while a few MI carbines might have been, its been rather rare.

that EO should be thrown out
Click to expand...
your nephew, as a practicing gunsmith, has the capacity of a manufacturer. he is able to make an assembly do something more than it could prior to his application of processes upon it
thus, he should be regulated as a manufacturer
that this requires more expense to now become licensed is a legitimate cost of business, and one which could provide a barrier to competition, the latter of which offers him a business advantage
besides, he has family with money who could help him out while he gets launched
 
justabubba said:
your nephew, as a practicing gunsmith, has the capacity of a manufacturer. he is able to make an assembly do something more than it could prior to his application of processes upon it thus, he should be regulated as a manufacturer
Click to expand...

He's not creating a new firearm - he's modifying an existing serialized firearm. There's no benefit to society to classify gunsmiths as manufacturers.

that this requires more expense to now become licensed is a legitimate cost of business, and one which could provide a barrier to competition, the latter of which offers him a business advantage
Click to expand...

It's forcing quite a few practicing gunsmiths out of business, with no benefit to society.

besides, he has family with money who could help him out while he gets launched
Click to expand...

Should we take such circumstances into account when creating laws?
 
Rucker61 said:
He's not creating a new firearm - he's modifying an existing serialized firearm. There's no benefit to society to classify gunsmiths as manufacturers.
Click to expand...
as a gunsmith, he has the potential to manufacture a gun
a manufacturer is an entity that causes an item to do something it could not do before without the added processing

It's forcing quite a few practicing gunsmiths out of business, with no benefit to society.
Click to expand...
by forcing them out of business you are indicating they refuse to be compliant


Should we take such circumstances into account when creating laws?
Click to expand...
sure we should; and then proceed with the greater good that will result
 
justabubba said:
as a gunsmith, he has the potential to manufacture a gun
a manufacturer is an entity that causes an item to do something it could not do before without the added processing
Click to expand...

Saying that a something trained to make minor improvements to a firearm is a manufacturer is analogous to saying that a car mechanic is a car manufacturer.
 
Last edited:
Rucker61 said:
Saying that a something trained to make minor improvements to a firearm is a manufacturer is analogous to saying that a car mechanic is a car manufacturer.
Click to expand...

if the entity makes the car do something which it could not have done without the entity's added process(es), then it would be a manufacturer
the back to the future delorean would be such an example
however repairing a car to perform as it was manufactured to perform does not cause the repairer to be found a manufacturer
 
justabubba said:
as a gunsmith, he has the potential to manufacture a gun
a manufacturer is an entity that causes an item to do something it could not do before without the added processing


by forcing them out of business you are indicating they refuse to be compliant



sure we should; and then proceed with the greater good that will result
Click to expand...

Manufacture implies large scale production. By your definition any craftsman is a manufacturer. Do we treat TV repair guys as manufacturers because they can fabricate a TV from parts?
 
Gaius46 said:
Manufacture implies large scale production. By your definition any craftsman is a manufacturer. Do we treat TV repair guys as manufacturers because they can fabricate a TV from parts?
Click to expand...

if they took parts and put them together such that the result was performance that could not occur by the parts without that added processing, then that entity which performed the processing performed manufacturing

my wife is a professional potter. she takes clay and turns it into useful vessels by her processing techniques. she is a manufacturer. doesn't matter if it is one or a zillion vessels, she is a manufacturer, and so is the gunsmith who takes parts and assembles them to do something the parts could not perform but for his assembly process
 
justabubba said:
if they took parts and put them together such that the result was performance that could not occur by the parts without that added processing, then that entity which performed the processing performed manufacturing

my wife is a professional potter. she takes clay and turns it into useful vessels by her processing techniques. she is a manufacturer. doesn't matter if it is one or a zillion vessels, she is a manufacturer, and so is the gunsmith who takes parts and assembles them to do something the parts could not perform but for his assembly process
Click to expand...

Perhaps in the sense of the verb "to manufacture" something. From a licensing and regulatory standpoint it makes no sense to treat your wife like Corning Ware.
 
TurtleDude said:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.
Click to expand...

Now they are after accuracy? ****..

Thank god we got trump, house, senate, and the supreme court now..
 
justabubba said:
as a gunsmith, he has the potential to manufacture a gun
a manufacturer is an entity that causes an item to do something it could not do before without the added processing


by forcing them out of business you are indicating they refuse to be compliant



sure we should; and then proceed with the greater good that will result
Click to expand...

So if a mechanic puts a lift kit and improves the suspension on a Jeep it is now able to do stuff it couldn't before. Is that mechanic now a manufacturer. Sorry but that is just idiotic.
 
Lachean said:
Colion Noir of the NRA said today that the time for defending the 2A is over, now its time to go on the offensive. Constitutional carry, repeal of bans/limits/registrations, no stamp for SBRs or suppressors.

A boy can dream...
Click to expand...

I could jump on such a bandwagon..
 
justabubba said:
if they took parts and put them together such that the result was performance that could not occur by the parts without that added processing, then that entity which performed the processing performed manufacturing

my wife is a professional potter. she takes clay and turns it into useful vessels by her processing techniques. she is a manufacturer. doesn't matter if it is one or a zillion vessels, she is a manufacturer, and so is the gunsmith who takes parts and assembles them to do something the parts could not perform but for his assembly process
Click to expand...

Speed shops make cars do things that they couldn't from the factory every single day. Not a single one is considered a car manufacturer. Your argument holds no water.
 
Gaius46 said:
Perhaps in the sense of the verb "to manufacture" something. From a licensing and regulatory standpoint it makes no sense to treat your wife like Corning Ware.
Click to expand...

for a definition to be used to regulate gun manufacturers, it does make sense
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom