Gunsmiths vs Manufacturers

justabubba said:

as a gunsmith, he has the potential to manufacture a gun

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And if one did, one would have to issue a serial number in which case one could be declared a manufacturer. A manufacturer produces new "things" from raw material and sells such goods. A gunsmith, on the other hand provides a service to an already manufactured product and charges for that service and does not sell a product.

a manufacturer is an entity that causes an item to do something it could not do before without the added processing

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No, not quite.

justabubba said:

however repairing a car to perform as it was manufactured to perform does not cause the repairer to be found a manufacturer

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Nor is it manufacturing to improve the performance or the looks of a car.

justabubba said:

because the gunsmith is able to modify the weapon to make it do something the regulations prohibit

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But the issue is not do perform something against regulations but simply doing a service that is fully compliant with laws and regulations. Engraving a gun does not make it do something else, nor does adding new sights or compensators.

justabubba said:

if the gunsmith changes the device from one that is legally functioning to one that is illegally functioning, then the functionality has been changed

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And how is that relevant to the OP?

TurtleDude said:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.

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Dang there sure a lot of "manufactures" out here and did not even know it, learn something new every day. Sadly, sometimes it is how stupid some laws that govern us really are. Thanks for the information.

Rucker61 said:

Not sure where the violent crime prevention happens here.

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Never see some of us work in our shop, have ya, my wife only looks in on me to see if I need something, otherwise she has learned to just let me complete what I am working on. On the plus side, I can teach children new words, oh wait that is not a plus, never mind that last part.

justabubba said:

mitigating the likelihood that weapons will be modified to do things the law prohibits

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Okay.. lets get this straight. Your argument is that someone who is willing to say modify a semi automatic weapon to full automatic.. or modify a shotgun barrel to less than 16 inches... illegally.

Is going to be prevented from doing so because they won't go and get a manufacturers license? ..

Yeah.. that's like arguing that business licenses prevent drug dealers from selling drugs.

braindrain said:

A lot more then a gun can do after a gunsmith gets gets done with a gun. Either you are just grasping at straws or you have no idea what a gunsmith actually does

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Like what?

justabubba said:

what do the speed shops do to the car than allows it to do something it could not do before the shop's added processes?
making it shineyer or faster or brake better are not functions the car could not do before. it could already go fast, be shiney, and brake
you illustrate a lack of understanding about what constitutes being a manufacturer. just as many have the same misunderstanding as presented in the OP about why a gunsmith is treated as a manufacturer

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How about air suspension or hydraulics where the car can lift itself? Couldn't do that before..

What about adding a key fob car starter? Couldn't start it from in your house before..

What about adding a dvd tv entertainment system to the car? Gps, wifi hotspot.. Couldn't do any of that before..

You can make your exhaust spit flames with sparkplugs..


Legal gunsmiths are the last people on earth you should be concerned about making weapons automatic..

That would be like asking the magistrate how to bribe the judge.. Or asking the TSA how to get your coke on the plane..

Only complete morons would seek out a professional gunsmith to illegally modify their guns..

I don't even understand your arguments about "doing something it couldn't do before".. Like what? What is the gun going to do? Your taxes?

It's going to shoot bullets, but just better.. So what?

Or you could just buy a better gun that shoots bullets better.. You can but like $5k ARs and its plenty good for anything.. So why not be able to slowly build a $1k AR into a $5k AR?

Converting to FULLY automatic? Gunsmiths don't do that.. They work on fully automatics for the gov and whatnot but the people that buy fully automatic guns buy them full auto in the first place..

Only the gov buys fully automatics, I doubt they are fussing around converting any, they will commision them the way they want them in the first place..

No citizens buy fully automatics, they can only trade old collector ones, not buy new, nor convert to full auto..

I'm pretty sure the act of converting to full auto is "manufacturing" by law and has been for a long time.. Gunsmiths don't convert guns to full auto so they aren't manufacturers.. It's just not something they would do that wouldn't be an extreme regulatory specialty for obscure reasons..

Anyway.. Doing a trigger job on a gun is not manufacturing, you just make it smoother.. Changing the grips or upgrading to lighter stronger higher precision parts just make the gun operate better.. Some people have a thing for their stuff being above average...

What if one buys this AR..



You can't hit the broad side of a barn with that thing.. IT HAS NO SITES (SRC Site Ready Carbine by windham)

So is putting a set of Iron sites on it so you can hit a deer sized target at 100 yards manufacturing?

What If we put a nightforce scope on it and can shoot pop bottles at 2-300 yards all day? Is that then manufacturing?

What if we then remove the front handguards and hold it in a way not effecting the barrel.. Now we can shoot pop bottles at 400 yards.. What now? Manufacturing?

Can we smooth out the trigger so we can shoot better? It doesn't make it any more accurate, just easier to be accurate.. Manufacturing?


Is modifying for accuracy manufacturing to you? I mean it's already really accurate. If out put in in a vice with no sites on it it is still just as accurate shooting small groups, just doesn't have the human interface/aid you need to actually aim it..

Casper said:

Dang there sure a lot of "manufactures" out here and did not even know it, learn something new every day. Sadly, sometimes it is how stupid some laws that govern us really are. Thanks for the information.

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Hopefully we will get this crap thrown out since it was an Obamanation Executive Order

TurtleDude said:

One of my nephews, mid 20s, spent 10 years of his life hoping to be a custom gunsmith. Earned a degree in mechanical engineering, took additional classes in gunsmithing, invested in expensive tools only to see that career path ruined when Obama-through executive order (a suit is pending on this brought by the NRA-ILA)-made many gunsmiths who do custom work "manufacturers" rather than gunsmiths. This mean that a license that was a couple hundred bucks went to several thousand and the paperwork was idiotic. Forcing many such people out of the business.

HOpefully Trump overturns the Obama administration's many Eos on guns. Another one that we need to get rid of-some of our allies have lots of well taken care of MI Garand Rifles and MI carbines we sold them or gave them several decades ago.. These obsolete (militarily) but highly desired by collectors and shooters, were going to be reimported into the USA. But Obama, lying as usual-claimed that "he didn't want these weapons of war on our streets causing carnage" and through EO prevented that reimportation

our own government sold hundreds of thousands of these firearms to private citizens. and guess what-in 30 years as a prosecutor, I have never come across any evidence that a GARAND rifle was used in a murder in the USA. And while a few MI carbines might have been, its been rather rare.

that EO should be thrown out

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I think it will be. I also hope the look at legalizing suppressor ownership without a tax stamp.

NonoBadDog said:

I think it will be. I also hope the look at legalizing suppressor ownership without a tax stamp.

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The Hearing Protection Act has already been introduced.

Rucker61 said:

The Hearing Protection Act has already been introduced.

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What is funny is the fact you can purchase suppressors with no restrictions in the U.K.... The very bastion of gun control done right according to gun control prohibitionists...
It is considered impolite to hunt/shoot without one.

TurtleDude said:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/201...tration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control

For example, DDTC generally labels procedures that involve cutting, drilling, or machining of an existing firearm in order to improve its accuracy or operation or to change its caliber as “manufacturing,” even if they do not create a new and distinct firearm. This includes threading a muzzle for a muzzle brake or blueprinting that requires machining of a barrel.
On the other hand, DDTC contends that gunsmithing includes only very simple procedures, such as the one-for-one drop-in replacement of parts that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining for installation. But even then, if the parts “improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation,” “manufacturing” may occur. Finishing treatments for firearms generally are not considered manufacturing under the guidance, nor are cosmetic flourishes such as engraving. Meanwhile the mounting of a scope that involves the machining of new dovetails or the drilling and tapping of holes may or not be “manufacturing,” depending on whether the scope improves the accuracy of the firearm beyond its prior configuration.

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This type of law makes no sense on any level.

I have a 300 Winmag built for me on a 1917 Enfield. Every single part has been rebuilt. replaced, and/or altered in a gunsmithing school. Today this would be considered manufacturing.

An excellent weapon suitable for everything except crime.

jimbo said:

This type of law makes no sense on any level.

I have a 300 Winmag built for me on a 1917 Enfield. Every single part has been rebuilt. replaced, and/or altered in a gunsmithing school. Today this would be considered manufacturing.

An excellent weapon suitable for everything except crime.

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Gun control laws have nothing to do with common sense, intelligence or purpose other that to hamper and harass firearm ownership with legal pitfalls, hoops and inconvenience.

When we accept gun control laws no matter how innocent it appears to be we accept the cost, inconvenience or denial of firearm ownership to somebody or group. There is no such thing as a good or useful gun control law and I defy anyone to present one.