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One of the best explanations for keeping our guns I have ever read

NoLeftNoRight

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Walter Lampton - IT IS ONE OF THE BEST WRITTEN PRO-GUN ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE EVER READ.
As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the Chicago, IL, Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a letter (written by a Marine), that places the proper perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society. Interesting take and one you don't hear much... Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter.....

"The Gun Is Civilization"
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)


Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society. But, a firearm makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly .

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier, works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter It simply would not work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...And that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act !!

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced !!
This is worth printing and sharing with others.......right?
Remember freedom is not free.
 

Link to source for verification of origin and authenticity? There are a lot of these type statements floating around the internet, some are real, some are fabricated. Even though the statement may support in part my own position on the 2nd Amendment, I would still like to be able to verify the authenticity of this statement. Thank you in advance.
 
I'm not particularly anti-gun but I'm somewhat anti-weak-arguments, especially when they're being held up as "the best ever".

Two main issues I see with this image of civilised utopia. First is that it isn't an argument for the right to bear arms but an argument for everyone to be armed which raises a whole load of practical complications and questions. The second is the idea that everyone being armed magically creates equal footing. The idea that the fail elderly woman in on equal ground with a mugger or a single person is on equal ground with a whole gang just by the introduction of guns is ridiculous.

It's not to say the right to bear arms is wrong or the particular regulations this is written to oppose are right, just that as a fundamental argument it's flawed.
 
I'm not particularly anti-gun but I'm somewhat anti-weak-arguments, especially when they're being held up as "the best ever".

Two main issues I see with this image of civilised utopia. First is that it isn't an argument for the right to bear arms but an argument for everyone to be armed which raises a whole load of practical complications and questions. The second is the idea that everyone being armed magically creates equal footing. The idea that the fail elderly woman in on equal ground with a mugger or a single person is on equal ground with a whole gang just by the introduction of guns is ridiculous.

It's not to say the right to bear arms is wrong or the particular regulations this is written to oppose are right, just that as a fundamental argument it's flawed.

like it or not, WITHOUT A GUN, the elderly, women etc are at the mercy of strong violent young men.
 
like it or not, WITHOUT A GUN, the elderly, women etc are at the mercy of strong violent young men.
Yes, but with guns the situation isn't necessarily any better for her and certainly not magically equal as this piece claimed. Again, I'm not opposing gun ownership here, just challenging the over-simplicity of this particular argument.
 
Link to source for verification of origin and authenticity? There are a lot of these type statements floating around the internet, some are real, some are fabricated. Even though the statement may support in part my own position on the 2nd Amendment, I would still like to be able to verify the authenticity of this statement. Thank you in advance.

This text is readily found all across the internet. There are hundreds of sources. And the author encourages it's sharing.
Please use Google on the following phrase....

"The Gun Is Civilization"

You will get a large number of sources
 
Yes, but with guns the situation isn't necessarily any better for her and certainly not magically equal as this piece claimed. Again, I'm not opposing gun ownership here, just challenging the over-simplicity of this particular argument.

You are 100% incorrect. Gun possession by individuals saves thousands of lives annually. Especially among women and the elderly.
Please do your own research. The information is available to those actually wishing to come out of the dark.

Your argument fails the test of logic since you imply that the elderly woman is no safer with a gun than without. You assume the gun is ineffective and or that she would not be capable of using it.
I should not have to explain to you that guns are a highly effective self defense tools. If not, why do Police carry them?

You make it sound as though her chances of self defense with a gun in hand, are no better than her taking on a group of young violent men in a physical contest.

Absurd. And I do not buy your claim that you are not opposed to gun ownership. Anyone who understands gun ownership would not make such a statement.
 
You are 100% incorrect. Gun possession by individuals saves thousands of lives annually. Especially among women and the elderly.
I never suggested otherwise.

Your argument fails the test of logic since you imply that the elderly woman is no safer with a gun than without. You assume the gun is ineffective and or that she would not be capable of using it.
No I didn’t. I stated quite clearly that they wouldn’t automatically better and certainly not automatically equal in all cases simply by introducing guns to both sides of the equation. It’s not the direction of the piece I objected to, it was the over-simplicity and definitiveness I disagreed with.

You make it sound as though her chances of self defense with a gun in hand, are no better than her taking on a group of young violent men in a physical contest.
No, I don’t think that a frail elderly woman facing a group of violent young men would necessarily be better off if everyone was armed. In some cases it could be a life saver, in some cases it could escalate the situation. Much would depend on much more that her simply owning a firearm but also how she used it. Again, this is just about reality being more complex than the piece made it out to be.

And I do not buy your claim that you are not opposed to gun ownership.
Because you can only perceive the simplistic binary arguments. This will really confuse you; I’m not opposed to or in favour of gun ownership.
 
Again, I'm not opposing gun ownership here, just challenging the over-simplicity of this particular argument.

I tend to agree with you.

While the author (whoever he may be) certainly makes a good and perfectly legitimate point, it's hardly definitive, nor is it reasonable in all cases under all circumstances.

Neither is it, in my opinion, "the best" pro-gun argument every made.

At best the guy makes a pretty good point.

"The best" pro-gun argument, in my opinion, would have to be one that actually takes in to account the Founder's intent in including the 2A in the Constitution - a check on tyrannical government.

Leaving that out puts the argument in the, "Yeah, that's also nice, but...", category.
 
Yes, but with guns the situation isn't necessarily any better for her and certainly not magically equal as this piece claimed. Again, I'm not opposing gun ownership here, just challenging the over-simplicity of this particular argument.

What's the benefit of you challenge? If you're not against gun ownership (the entire point of this thread and forum), what's your point?
 
What's the benefit of you challenge? If you're not against gun ownership (the entire point of this thread and forum), what's your point?
In general, that the entire point of this thread and forum shouldn't just be whether people are for or against gun ownership. The argument presented in the OP was too simplistic and proscriptive (like many from both sides). Reality is more complex and nuanced and any positive discussion to be had on the subject needs to take account of that.
 
In general, that the entire point of this thread and forum shouldn't just be whether people are for or against gun ownership. The argument presented in the OP was too simplistic and proscriptive (like many from both sides). Reality is more complex and nuanced and any positive discussion to be had on the subject needs to take account of that.

Not really, it comes down to some pretty simple truths. The 2nd Amendment affirms the right of the people to keep and bear arms. No qualification is required for law abiding citizens.
 
Link to source for verification of origin and authenticity? There are a lot of these type statements floating around the internet, some are real, some are fabricated. Even though the statement may support in part my own position on the 2nd Amendment, I would still like to be able to verify the authenticity of this statement. Thank you in advance.

I've seen this multiple times,

The Original is from

""The Gun Is Civilization" by MARKO KLOOS, THE MUNCHKIN WRANGLER."

Original 2007

https://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/


There was a bit if confusion on the authenticity, but from my understanding it was written by Marko but attributed to Maj. L Caudill, hard to go against a Retired USMC major and dismiss his credibility.

Regardless it is a great peace and one that many people should absorb and contemplate rather than dismiss.
 
In general, that the entire point of this thread and forum shouldn't just be whether people are for or against gun ownership. The argument presented in the OP was too simplistic and proscriptive (like many from both sides). Reality is more complex and nuanced and any positive discussion to be had on the subject needs to take account of that.

I just posted this in another thread


4) Guns will be here to stay, it is purely an acceptable fact...... #2 Amendment, Number 2, right after #1, assuming that this is the second most important amendment...... Why are we not educating and teaching the importance and the safeties of this amendment. Instead of trying to make it disappear all in all. While people are afraid of guns, like fireworks that explode and Galaxy 7's and so forth. I would be more afraid of the people and the ignorance of those using it. Tell a child dont touch the stove....what will they do, TOUCH THE STOVE..... teach the child about the dangers of the stove, teach the child what its properly used for, teach the child, when its appropriate to use it and how to properly use it, Likely the child will not touch the stove inadvertently and will not use it in the wrong way.


digest what I stated in bold.... for a moment.... think about teaching from the ground up, our Children......think of a child in their most basic instincts.....

Its no different from teaching a child not to run into the street, you take the time to explain the dangers and why not to do it. When its appropriate to, the safeties of looking left then right and left again etc...... A child then knows how to conduct themselves properly through LIFE.


Why should this be any different with a weapon..... what about a kitchen knife... same principles......But no.... GUNS are dangerous...... .....*shake my head*
 
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Yes, guns are dangerous. They kill millions every year
 
Yes, guns are dangerous. They kill millions every year

That's just plan stupid assertion without actually being a bit more specific. In the USA, there are about 30K gunshot deaths a year. most of those are suicides. Many of the deaths you talk about are government inflicted so your desire to ban guns would not stop those deaths around the world

maybe the solution to your problem is disarming governments
 
Walter Lampton - IT IS ONE OF THE BEST WRITTEN PRO-GUN ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE EVER READ.
As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the Chicago, IL, Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a letter (written by a Marine), that places the proper perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society. Interesting take and one you don't hear much... Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter.....

"The Gun Is Civilization"
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)


Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society. But, a firearm makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly .

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier, works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter It simply would not work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...And that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act !!

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced !!
This is worth printing and sharing with others.......right?
Remember freedom is not free.

I would prefer a light saber or a force lance, anyday of the week.
 
Walter Lampton - IT IS ONE OF THE BEST WRITTEN PRO-GUN ARGUMENT THAT I HAVE EVER READ.
As the Supreme Court hears arguments for and against the Chicago, IL, Gun Ban, I offer you another stellar example of a letter (written by a Marine), that places the proper perspective on what a gun means to a civilized society. Interesting take and one you don't hear much... Read this eloquent and profound letter and pay close attention to the last paragraph of the letter.....

"The Gun Is Civilization"
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)


Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it. In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender. There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society. But, a firearm makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat - it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly .

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier, works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter It simply would not work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable. When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...And that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act !!

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced !!
This is worth printing and sharing with others.......right?
Remember freedom is not free.

Please give credit to the author from which this was plagiarised and incorrectly attributed.

Marko Kloos The gun is civilisation.

https://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/
 
Yes, guns are dangerous. They kill millions every year

How many were charged with murder?

When you admit it was zero realise you have made a big mistake only a zealot could make by attributing human qualities to an inanimate object.
 
I just posted this in another thread


4) Guns will be here to stay, it is purely an acceptable fact...... #2 Amendment, Number 2, right after #1, assuming that this is the second most important amendment...... Why are we not educating and teaching the importance and the safeties of this amendment. Instead of trying to make it disappear all in all. While people are afraid of guns, like fireworks that explode and Galaxy 7's and so forth. I would be more afraid of the people and the ignorance of those using it. Tell a child dont touch the stove....what will they do, TOUCH THE STOVE..... teach the child about the dangers of the stove, teach the child what its properly used for, teach the child, when its appropriate to use it and how to properly use it, Likely the child will not touch the stove inadvertently and will not use it in the wrong way.


digest what I stated in bold.... for a moment.... think about teaching from the ground up, our Children......think of a child in their most basic instincts.....

Its no different from teaching a child not to run into the street, you take the time to explain the dangers and why not to do it. When its appropriate to, the safeties of looking left then right and left again etc...... A child then knows how to conduct themselves properly through LIFE.


Why should this be any different with a weapon..... what about a kitchen knife... same principles......But no.... GUNS are dangerous...... .....*shake my head*

We manage to fire proof our children
We manage to water proof our children
We manage to heat proof our children
We manage to electricity proof our children
We manage to knife proof our children
We manage to traffic proof our children
We manage to jump and fly proof our children
We manage to teach our children manners so people don't want to swat them every time they open their mouths.

We are not capable of gun proofing our children and need governments help in removing these dangerous things. One has to be especially gifted to be able to see the reasoning.
 
We manage to fire proof our children
We manage to water proof our children
We manage to heat proof our children
We manage to electricity proof our children
We manage to knife proof our children
We manage to traffic proof our children
We manage to jump and fly proof our children
We manage to teach our children manners so people don't want to swat them every time they open their mouths.

We are not capable of gun proofing our children and need governments help in removing these dangerous things. One has to be especially gifted to be able to see the reasoning.


Its funny..... we manage to teach our kid about these things yet tragedies still happens, we dont treat our children anything about weapons and when there is a tragedy, people go ape !#@#$%. Whos fault is it?

Yes, we need the "government" to step in to be responsible for all of our actions, LOL.....you are right, it does take a "gifted" person to see that, those gifted people also need,

micro-helmets-micro-helmet-66a.jpg
 
Its funny..... we manage to teach our kid about these things yet tragedies still happens, we dont treat our children anything about weapons and when there is a tragedy, people go ape !#@#$%. Whos fault is it?

Yes, we need the "government" to step in to be responsible for all of our actions, LOL.....you are right, it does take a "gifted" person to see that, those gifted people also need,

View attachment 67209017

You forgot the complete outfit

straight-jacket.jpg
 
I like those jackets, they are very snug...... Its the "normal" people that truly scare me.....

That's the problem with gun control advocates, they don't know how to pick out the ones who are going to cause harm to others. Nobody currently does. However they fully believe it can be done. If not they would fold up onto a foetal position and wait, to afraid to move.
 
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