New Yorkers refuse to register their "Assault Weapons"

Crimefree · Oct 2, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
So far they have not attempted to personally take away my rights. Maybe I will die before having to watch this nation lose everything our forefathers fought for. It is sad to see how much of what our unions fought for lost due to a failed immigration policy, cheap labor, combined with moving industry to other countries thanks to favorable laws passed by our bought and paid for political leaders.

The moment any constitutional right has been infringed your rights are being taken away. What do you mean none of your rights have been taken? Do you mean only the rights you want or think are of any use to you?

Take a wander over to Constitutionality Crisis

In its practice of Judicial Review, too often the Supreme Court is not asking: "Are this citizen's rights being violated by this law?" Instead the question is: "Is the violation of this citizen's rights justified because of overriding government goals and objectives?" Too often the answer the court delivers is "yes." When your rights get in the way of a government objective, you lose.

Government created to protect your rights should have no goal higher than the protection of those rights. When government's own goals override your rights, government is acting unconstitutionally. Government often states that these violations of citizens' rights are necessary "for the good of society." Society is ill served by laws which violate the rights of the citizens making up that society.

Because of prohibition era violence, in 1934, the congress passed the National Firearms Act (NFA). What they really wanted to do was simply ban certain kinds of weapons. Of course, they could not impose an outright ban — the second amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms. But imposing taxes is a power constitutionally granted to the congress Article 1, section 8: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..."). The NFA does not therefore ban any weapons, but it does impose a tax on certain weapons and "destructive devices" which the congress thought to be the primary weapons used by the gangs — machine guns, sawed off shotguns and the like.

More recently, of course, the congress has enacted an "assault weapons" ban prohibiting the manufacture of certain, scary-looking guns. A ban on the manufacture of machine guns (except for law enforcement) has also been enacted. The Second Amendment has not changed. These bans are just as unconstitutional now as they would have been in 1934. What has changed is the willingness of the congress to legislate in areas where it is not empowered to do so. Experience has taught the congress that it can ignore the constraints of the Constitution with impunity because the Supreme Court will uphold these unconstitutional laws.

What this means is the states and citizens have abdicated their power and duty to review and correct what government is doing. Who decides what is constitutional? Government?

Some excellent points and good reading

PIPEWRENCH · Oct 2, 2016

Crimefree said:
The moment any constitutional right has been infringed your rights are being taken away. What do you mean none of your rights have been taken? Do you mean only the rights you want or think are of any use to you?

Take a wander over to Constitutionality Crisis

In its practice of Judicial Review, too often the Supreme Court is not asking: "Are this citizen's rights being violated by this law?" Instead the question is: "Is the violation of this citizen's rights justified because of overriding government goals and objectives?" Too often the answer the court delivers is "yes." When your rights get in the way of a government objective, you lose.

Government created to protect your rights should have no goal higher than the protection of those rights. When government's own goals override your rights, government is acting unconstitutionally. Government often states that these violations of citizens' rights are necessary "for the good of society." Society is ill served by laws which violate the rights of the citizens making up that society.

Because of prohibition era violence, in 1934, the congress passed the National Firearms Act (NFA). What they really wanted to do was simply ban certain kinds of weapons. Of course, they could not impose an outright ban — the second amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms. But imposing taxes is a power constitutionally granted to the congress Article 1, section 8: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..."). The NFA does not therefore ban any weapons, but it does impose a tax on certain weapons and "destructive devices" which the congress thought to be the primary weapons used by the gangs — machine guns, sawed off shotguns and the like.

More recently, of course, the congress has enacted an "assault weapons" ban prohibiting the manufacture of certain, scary-looking guns. A ban on the manufacture of machine guns (except for law enforcement) has also been enacted. The Second Amendment has not changed. These bans are just as unconstitutional now as they would have been in 1934. What has changed is the willingness of the congress to legislate in areas where it is not empowered to do so. Experience has taught the congress that it can ignore the constraints of the Constitution with impunity because the Supreme Court will uphold these unconstitutional laws.

What this means is the states and citizens have abdicated their power and duty to review and correct what government is doing. Who decides what is constitutional? Government?

Some excellent points and good reading

That is the problem with getting old. I have lost the determination to fight for my rights until it is probably too late.

When I was younger and several wannabe tough guys cut in line on me at blockbusters I had no problem pointing out where the back of the line was to them. Today I would look and see 3 against 1 as not good odds and do I really want to start a fight with some possible gang members over waiting another minute in line. That is how they take away your rights. Unless you are willing to fight and die for them you will lose them.

That day at blockbuster I got lucky. They liked the odds until a another person in line said hey punks it wont be 3 on 1 but 3 on 2 and you will lose. They threw their videos on the floor and left. I got lucky again they were not waiting for me in the parking lot. Back then I couldn't understand how the people could stand by and let the Nazi Party get away with what they did. Today I know why because a lot of people wont put their life on the line until it is too late and the are the ones being taken away.

Crimefree · Oct 3, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
That is the problem with getting old. I have lost the determination to fight for my rights until it is probably too late.

When I was younger and several wannabe tough guys cut in line on me at blockbusters I had no problem pointing out where the back of the line was to them. Today I would look and see 3 against 1 as not good odds and do I really want to start a fight with some possible gang members over waiting another minute in line. That is how they take away your rights. Unless you are willing to fight and die for them you will lose them.

That day at blockbuster I got lucky. They liked the odds until a another person in line said hey punks it wont be 3 on 1 but 3 on 2 and you will lose. They threw their videos on the floor and left. I got lucky again they were not waiting for me in the parking lot. Back then I couldn't understand how the people could stand by and let the Nazi Party get away with what they did. Today I know why because a lot of people wont put their life on the line until it is too late and the are the ones being taken away.

I hear and fully understand the situation. I think as I have got older I have hated iniquity and injustice more. It is simply beyond my comprehension how some people can be so greedy for power and money that lives do not matter. For what it is worth I don't see any physical fighting if firearm owners would just get off their butts and object to the incursions and lies that get tossed at us. It's like we are to afraid to even speak up and be heard.

Reality is that we should get a lot smarter than sitting waiting for the final crunch. From history by that time few are going to a damn thing. They are all waiting for somebody else or have given up as hopeless.

What smarter means is examining our weak points. When we do that the most glaring point that we will cause our defeat is, where is the leadership? Where is the advice on how to fight gun control? Where is the think tank, planning execution and funding? None of this exists.

Firearm owners will just give up as it is hopeless as there was no support and no worthwhile leadership. That is true for every country including the US. Why I have no idea even woman fought for their rights. OK they had leadership :lol:

PIPEWRENCH · Oct 3, 2016

Crimefree said:
I hear and fully understand the situation. I think as I have got older I have hated iniquity and injustice more. It is simply beyond my comprehension how some people can be so greedy for power and money that lives do not matter. For what it is worth I don't see any physical fighting if firearm owners would just get off their butts and object to the incursions and lies that get tossed at us. It's like we are to afraid to even speak up and be heard.

Reality is that we should get a lot smarter than sitting waiting for the final crunch. From history by that time few are going to a damn thing. They are all waiting for somebody else or have given up as hopeless.

What smarter means is examining our weak points. When we do that the most glaring point that we will cause our defeat is, where is the leadership? Where is the advice on how to fight gun control? Where is the think tank, planning execution and funding? None of this exists.

Firearm owners will just give up as it is hopeless as there was no support and no worthwhile leadership. That is true for every country including the US. Why I have no idea even woman fought for their rights. OK they had leadership :lol:

Unfortunately once government starts down the road of taking away rights and ruling the people instead of serving the people it almost always has to end with violence. No amount of talk would have done the colonist any good. Once government gets over-bloated and corrupt like ours their is only one recourse.
Our forefathers knew this and tried to insure the people would be armed and have the means to overthrow the corrupt government. Could you imagine our forefathers reaction to people losing their homes to taxation. Could you imagine their reaction to the IRS shutting down their livelihood, confiscating their assets, and freezing their accounts. A government the people fear is a terrible tyrannical government that needs to be put back in its place.

Crimefree · Oct 4, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
Unfortunately once government starts down the road of taking away rights and ruling the people instead of serving the people it almost always has to end with violence. No amount of talk would have done the colonist any good. Once government gets over-bloated and corrupt like ours their is only one recourse.

Giving up before even fighting and finding excuses is not the way to win.

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”― Winston S. Churchill

Right now it is possible to win without bloodshed. All it takes is to organise firearm owners and motivate them to stand up for their rights and defend them form all incursion by gun control and government. On their own firearm owners have the power to elect their own president.

Our forefathers knew this and tried to insure the people would be armed and have the means to overthrow the corrupt government. Could you imagine our forefathers reaction to people losing their homes to taxation. Could you imagine their reaction to the IRS shutting down their livelihood, confiscating their assets, and freezing their accounts. A government the people fear is a terrible tyrannical government that needs to be put back in its place.

An excellent point and one every tyrannical government knows can easily happen unless people are so demoralised by government, disarmed and believe it is hopeless that they will not fight and rather die.

Now I know this sounds stupid but consider that for government to kill millions that is what is needed because if those self same millions about to die attacked they would probably win. What it takes is the lack of will to fight and that is what firearm organisations are teaching us. Our leaders who we look up to for advice and example have already given up and would rather lick governments boots than lead or fight.

When the handgun ban was announced in UK guess what the firearm organisations did. They begged parliament for more restrictions instead of a ban. It's nice to look down on them and say it will not happen to the US but it has happened in every country that has strict gun control including Switzerland. A piece of paper nobody values will not save the US.

There was not one sound after the Brady assault weapons ban, not one from firearm organisations. It was we can still shoot chaps don't rock the boat they may add more restrictions.

jaeger19 · Oct 4, 2016

Crimefree said:
Giving up before even fighting and finding excuses is not the way to win.

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”― Winston S. Churchill

Right now it is possible to win without bloodshed. All it takes is to organise firearm owners and motivate them to stand up for their rights and defend them form all incursion by gun control and government. On their own firearm owners have the power to elect their own president.

An excellent point and one every tyrannical government knows can easily happen unless people are so demoralised by government, disarmed and believe it is hopeless that they will not fight and rather die.

Now I know this sounds stupid but consider that for government to kill millions that is what is needed because if those self same millions about to die attacked they would probably win. What it takes is the lack of will to fight and that is what firearm organisations are teaching us. Our leaders who we look up to for advice and example have already given up and would rather lick governments boots than lead or fight.

When the handgun ban was announced in UK guess what the firearm organisations did. They begged parliament for more restrictions instead of a ban. It's nice to look down on them and say it will not happen to the US but it has happened in every country that has strict gun control including Switzerland. A piece of paper nobody values will not save the US.

There was not one sound after the Brady assault weapons ban, not one from firearm organisations. It was we can still shoot chaps don't rock the boat they may add more restrictions.

Yes... but here is the irony. Those that speak of "government overreach"... also promote government overreach on other fronts.

How many "conservatives" have you seen on these forums support a person getting shot because "he didn't obey the policeman".

"obey the policeman and you don't get shot, disobey and die". that's seen as an acceptable choice by many.

How can we as a society fight overreach by the government.. when the largest overreaches by government.. i.e. the unnecessary use of force by the police force"... are condoned and even encouraged?

TurtleDude · Oct 4, 2016

jaeger19 said:
Yes... but here is the irony. Those that speak of "government overreach"... also promote government overreach on other fronts.

How many "conservatives" have you seen on these forums support a person getting shot because "he didn't obey the policeman".

"obey the policeman and you don't get shot, disobey and die". that's seen as an acceptable choice by many.

How can we as a society fight overreach by the government.. when the largest overreaches by government.. i.e. the unnecessary use of force by the police force"... are condoned and even encouraged?

i think you miss the point. as an attorney, I always tell people that the street is not the place to fight a cop. and if you are dead, all the lawsuits in the world won't help you. and the fact is, almost every single gray area case of the cops shooting someone-and even most of the ones where the cop was clearly at fault to some extent (Like the UC university cop who shot a drug dealer under dubious circumstances-at best) -the deceased would have been still alive if they had complied with the cop's orders. That is very different than saying we approve of what the cops did. But the place to challenge a cop's orders is in COURT rather than refusing to comply on the streets

Crimefree · Oct 5, 2016

jaeger19 said:
Yes... but here is the irony. Those that speak of "government overreach"... also promote government overreach on other fronts.

How many "conservatives" have you seen on these forums support a person getting shot because "he didn't obey the policeman".

"obey the policeman and you don't get shot, disobey and die". that's seen as an acceptable choice by many.

How can we as a society fight overreach by the government.. when the largest overreaches by government.. i.e. the unnecessary use of force by the police force"... are condoned and even encouraged?

Let us be pragmatic there is no hope of fixing all the ills at once. What is required is to choose your fight and the right to arms by far has to be the most important and vital right.

We should never be discouraged by thinking it is to much or impossible. We need to remember this is a fight we cannot afford to lose.

Casper · Oct 13, 2016

blaxshep said:
SARATOGA SPRINGS — Nearly a thousand gun registration forms were turned into ashes Sunday.

The forms are used for people to register with New York State Police firearms that meet the state’s definition of military-style assault weapons. The deadline is April 15. Gun rights advocates gathered at the Saratoga-Wilton Elks Lodge 161 to burn the papers in a symbolic protest.

“Once the Second (Amendment) falls, the rest will go with it. It’s an unconstitutional law, done in the middle of the night with no input from the public,” he said.

“We are opposed to registration because the evidence is clear that registration leads to confiscation,” he said.

He and others hope that so few people will fill out the forms, that the registry portion of the SAFE Act “collapses under its own weight.”

He estimates that less than 3,000 New York assault weapons have been registered and he says Sate Police estimated that there are several hundred thousand. The gun industry believes the number may be high as 1.2 million, according to Palmateer.

Protesters burn gun registration forms | Local | poststar.com

Good for them. Oh and no one was made less safe due to their refusal to comply. People learned from the last ban and this time around most will refuse to comply and the funny thing is the government cannot do a darn thing about it.

Casper · Oct 13, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
Unfortunately once government starts down the road of taking away rights and ruling the people instead of serving the people it almost always has to end with violence. No amount of talk would have done the colonist any good. Once government gets over-bloated and corrupt like ours their is only one recourse.
Our forefathers knew this and tried to insure the people would be armed and have the means to overthrow the corrupt government. Could you imagine our forefathers reaction to people losing their homes to taxation. Could you imagine their reaction to the IRS shutting down their livelihood, confiscating their assets, and freezing their accounts. A government the people fear is a terrible tyrannical government that needs to be put back in its place.

It is why all governments have a finite lifespan, at some point it seems that every government goes from serving the people to ruling the people. At that point the people have a choice, do as they are told or fight the government. One of the reasons that the government only reduces our rights one small bit at a time, as with guns they call it common sense gun control at first, it takes people a while to realize that they have lost their rights and at that point it is too late. It is how to fool the people until it is too late and why some people see what the ultimate goal is, think Australia, Hillary loved their "solution".

PIPEWRENCH · Oct 14, 2016

Casper said:
It is why all governments have a finite lifespan, at some point it seems that every government goes from serving the people to ruling the people. At that point the people have a choice, do as they are told or fight the government. One of the reasons that the government only reduces our rights one small bit at a time, as with guns they call it common sense gun control at first, it takes people a while to realize that they have lost their rights and at that point it is too late. It is how to fool the people until it is too late and why some people see what the ultimate goal is, think Australia, Hillary loved their "solution".

I am at nearing the end of my life. Maybe 10 or 20 years. It is the children that will pay for our sins. They will inherit the debt and the loss of the American Dream. They will be the ones ruled over like peasants and sheep. Maybe that is what we have become and need. The rich and powerful to rule every aspect of our lives. Instead of adventure servitude. Instead of freedom false security. Unable to stand on our own 2 feet but needing government to survive. Government will feed, house, clothe, and rule over us. I only hope I die before seeing fall of a great country.

Casper · Oct 14, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
I am at nearing the end of my life. Maybe 10 or 20 years. It is the children that will pay for our sins. They will inherit the debt and the loss of the American Dream. They will be the ones ruled over like peasants and sheep. Maybe that is what we have become and need. The rich and powerful to rule every aspect of our lives. Instead of adventure servitude. Instead of freedom false security. Unable to stand on our own 2 feet but needing government to survive. Government will feed, house, clothe, and rule over us. I only hope I die before seeing fall of a great country.

There will always be Free Men and Women and they will, in the end, inherit the world. Sadly I doubt you are going to get your wish to not see the fall, we are already in it.

MickeyW · Oct 15, 2016

blaxshep said:
SARATOGA SPRINGS — Nearly a thousand gun registration forms were turned into ashes Sunday.

The forms are used for people to register with New York State Police firearms that meet the state’s definition of military-style assault weapons. The deadline is April 15. Gun rights advocates gathered at the Saratoga-Wilton Elks Lodge 161 to burn the papers in a symbolic protest.

“Once the Second (Amendment) falls, the rest will go with it. It’s an unconstitutional law, done in the middle of the night with no input from the public,” he said.

“We are opposed to registration because the evidence is clear that registration leads to confiscation,” he said.

He and others hope that so few people will fill out the forms, that the registry portion of the SAFE Act “collapses under its own weight.”

He estimates that less than 3,000 New York assault weapons have been registered and he says Sate Police estimated that there are several hundred thousand. The gun industry believes the number may be high as 1.2 million, according to Palmateer.

Protesters burn gun registration forms | Local | poststar.com

Good for them. People all over the country are ignoring these asinine, anti-gun laws. Many in law enforcement say that they will not enforce such stupid, liberal laws.

Henrin said:
Gun registration in another liberal state. I wonder what that is going to be used for? What does California tell us about that? Oh right, gun control advocates tell me that registration is not designed to take peoples guns away. I love how liberals can't get it through their head that people are on to them on this trash.

They are brainwashed dopes. When we see so many vote for a putz, like obama .....or a Crook, like Hillary, it tells the world that these people don't know crap about self defense, or the good that guns do. They are mind melded with a Nanny State mentality.

MickeyW · Oct 15, 2016

Fishking said:
To put it very basically. You can know a person is 100% guilty of breaking the law, but you don't agree with the law itself, you can declare that person not guilty.

I always liked it when a jury is smart enough to figure that out. It's helped restore my faith in using common sense in the justice system instead of blindly following directives!

MickeyW · Oct 15, 2016

PIPEWRENCH said:
Careful or they will pass a law to put anyone attempting jury nullification in jail. Remember we are a democracy and mob rules. 51% of the people can vote away the rights of the 49% or the individual. Even Trump agrees you can have your rights stripped away from you on suspicion alone. No due process and not facts are needed. You are put on a list and say goodby to your rights. Welcome to the new version of freedom.

Exactly.

Fishking said:
Possibly but, as of right now, there aren't any laws that prohibit it. I just wouldn't volunteer that you are aware of this option because the prosecution will dump you on the spot during the interview process.

I do not want to be on a jury after sitting through so many trials with inmates and watching the jury sent out of the room while the judge and attorneys argue over a point of law.....and the jurors don't get to hear all the damning evidence against the accused.

blaxshep said:
It's called the liberal utopia. Where the Nanny State knows best and you have no rights only privileges.

Sadly, there are soooo many sheeple, that are ok with that in America.

TurtleDude said:
yes but you are essentially violating the oath you took as a juror. we can discuss if that oath is constitutionally correct though. The judge essentially charges the jury to be "judges of the facts" but not the law and to accept the law as the judge instructs them

this is done with what are called jury instructions and both parties will spend hours trying to get the court to accept jury instructions that are most beneficial to their clients and indeed many appeals are based on a jury charge they think was not properly given

Another reason I don't want to be a juror.

PIPEWRENCH said:
I know. I used it for years to get out of jury duty when I ran my own business. It was much easier than filing hardship reason.

Yep, it works.

New Yorkers refuse to register their "Assault Weapons"

warrior of the wetlands