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Young, Dumb and armed. How Melbourne (AUS) became a gun city.

Casper said:
Ok back it up here, are you saying criminals will not follow the law and did not turn theirs in, that simply isn't playing fair.
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I'm not suggesting criminals did follow the law. I'm suggesting that any attempt to equate our two countries on the gun control debate is ridiculous because we don't have a gun culture here.

Melbourne - population 4.1 million. 99 shootings in the past 20 months.

You want to equate. Go for it. Show me your comparisons between US cities of similar populations in the same period. I've said all along what may work for us may not work for you. I'm not the one attempting to equate.
 
Serenity said:
You are attempting to equate our two Countries when it comes to the gun debate. I'm suggesting that is idiotic to equate them. Do you disagree?


NO I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT

If so, refer to post #18 which is what you initially replied to and did not address my question before you tried to duck and weave and show me your comparisons.
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I think anyone who supports disarming honest people to control crime is either ignorant or dishonest.

gun banners constantly reference Australia as a society where the government confiscated lots of guns and crime went down as a result. Hillary and Obama have cited Australia as proof that gun control that targets legal gun owners is a "good thing" that "works"

my comment about sheep was generic and applies to any citizen or group who thinks restricting the rights of honest people is a good thing.
 
genghis khan said:
September 11, 2016. The Age
Young, Dumb and armed. How Melbourne became a gun city.


The investigation has found:
  • There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
  • Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
  • The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
  • Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
  • Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts

Other interesting tidbits:
  • The majority of firearm-related crimes are committed by those aged 20 to 34 - almost 1500 offenders were recorded for this age group last year, more than two-and-a-half times the number five years ago, according to the Crime Statistics Agency.
  • Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.
  • While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.
  • The majority of firearm-related crimes are committed by those aged 20 to 34 - almost 1500 offenders were recorded for this age group last year, more than two-and-a-half times the number five years ago, according to the Crime Statistics Agency.
  • Despite Australia’s strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem, particularly with the country’s reliance on shipping by sea cargo and the rise of the so-called “dark web”.
  • [A recent] bust led to the seizure of six fully-automatic assault rifles and 96 handgun frames in the US, and dozens of machine gun and handgun parts, and 10 kilograms of ammunition, in Victoria and NSW.
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Well, 755 arrests for guns out of 23 million people.

Better armed than any time before? Not likely.
 
genghis khan said:
September 11, 2016. The Age
Young, Dumb and armed. How Melbourne became a gun city.


The investigation has found:
  • There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months - more than one incident a week since January 2015
  • Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
  • The epicentre of the problem is a triangle between Coolaroo, Campbellfield and Glenroy in the north-west, with Cranbourne, Narre Warren and Dandenong in the south-east close behind
  • Criminals are using gunshot wounds to the arms and legs as warnings to pay debts
  • Assault rifles and handguns are being smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts

Other interesting tidbits:
  • The majority of firearm-related crimes are committed by those aged 20 to 34 - almost 1500 offenders were recorded for this age group last year, more than two-and-a-half times the number five years ago, according to the Crime Statistics Agency.
  • Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled, driven by the easy availability of handguns, semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and, increasingly, machine guns, that are smuggled into the country or stolen from licensed owners.
  • While the body count was higher during Melbourne’s ‘Underbelly War’ (1999-2005), more people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals.
  • The majority of firearm-related crimes are committed by those aged 20 to 34 - almost 1500 offenders were recorded for this age group last year, more than two-and-a-half times the number five years ago, according to the Crime Statistics Agency.
  • Despite Australia’s strict border controls, the smuggling of high-powered military-style firearms is also a growing problem, particularly with the country’s reliance on shipping by sea cargo and the rise of the so-called “dark web”.
  • [A recent] bust led to the seizure of six fully-automatic assault rifles and 96 handgun frames in the US, and dozens of machine gun and handgun parts, and 10 kilograms of ammunition, in Victoria and NSW.
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Newb with an intelligent post. It wasn't a wall of text espousing some idiotic idea. Well presented. That is unusual. Good on ya.
 
ScrewPokemonGo said:
More proof that all guns should be illegal in every nation on earth.
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Is this one of those posts that some people use just to clutter up otherwise intelligent discussions?
 
Serenity said:
I live here and work here. I know my Country better than you ever will. We do not have a gun culture here. We are not the same as the USA when it comes to guns. We rarely talk about guns. The everyday person doesn't care that they don't have guns.

What part of that is so difficult for you to comprehend and why do you insist on trying to draw parallels? It is beyond ridiculous to try and equate our two countries when discussing gun control and it's ridiculous and incredibly dishonest to even attempt to draw any comparisons.

I've mentioned before that I've been a paramedic for ten years, the last 5 as a critical care paramedic and I live and work in one of the largest Regional areas in Australia. In that time I can count on one hand how many firearm related incidents I have attended. Two of them were suicides. You do the math and leave my Country and her citizens out of your crap.
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Australia is used as a model by a lot of gun rights people as a successful gun ban policy. Is your belief that using Australia's gun laws as an example of any kind is disingenuous as it relates to gun laws?
 
NonoBadDog said:
Australia is used as a model by a lot of gun rights people as a successful gun ban policy. Is your belief that using Australia's gun laws as an example of any kind is disingenuous as it relates to gun laws?
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I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself here. How many times have I stated that there is no comparison between our two Countries and it is dishonest to even attempt to equate the two in this thread alone? Clearly that would indicate that I believe using Australia's gun laws as a comparison is disingenuous in US gun control discussions. I strongly disagree with both sides of the debate going down that line. I don't for one minute (nor have I ever here), suggested that what works for Australia/Australians in relation to gun control will ever work for those in the US. We don't have a gun culture here, there is no comparison.
 
jet57 said:
Well, 755 arrests for guns out of 23 million people.

Better armed than any time before? Not likely.
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Amazing comment! Amazing because there are a number of politicians who hold out Australia as an example of how well the gun control laws work, but when the actual size of the "problem" is revealed, suddenly it's like "you've got to be kidding me! 755 arrests isn't a even good weekend in Chicago!"

Those politicians have no clue as to the real extent of gun violence in Australia, eh, mate?

Nor do they seem to understand that gun crime in their Utopia is actually rising. Yet they pander to people [voters] who think, for example, that the law actually did away with handguns (see video) when in fact, the Australian Crime Commission conservatively estimates there are over 260,000 illegal weapons running around the island, 10,000 of which are handguns.



To borrow a line from Jefferson Airplane, "when the truth is found to be lies. And all the joy within you dies."
 
Serenity said:
And yet we don't have a gun culture here. The average Australian never owned a gun nor had any desire to do so. There is no comparison between our Countries. This is a recording.

So where's your "comparisons" as per post #18.
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April 13, 2016; Australia, SBS
"The data shows 850,634 registered firearms in NSW. There are over 100 postcodes that have more than 2,400 guns and there are 9 postcodes that contain more than 10,000 guns." (And that's just NSW!)

April 15, 2016; ACT, ABC.Net.au
There are currently 19,200 registered firearms in the ACT, up from 17,000 in 2013. (and that's just the ACT!)

September 11, 2016; Melbourne, The Age
Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre.

February 24, 2015, SBS
New research suggests that Australians have steadily restocked the firearms destroyed in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre, with the number of firearms in the community now estimated at 3.2 million.

January 14, 2013, SMH
Australians own as many guns now as they did at the time of the Port Arthur massacre, despite more than 1 million firearms being handed in and destroyed, new research reveals.

Would you like to tell us another bedtime story?
 
genghis khan said:
Would you like to tell us another bedtime story?
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Sure. I'm not bothered enough to read all of your links because they do absolutely nothing to counter my entire point in this thread which is that you cannot compare the US and Australia on gun control/debate issues. Do you agree or disagree?

Your link suggests that the number of firearms in the community is now estimated at 3.2 million. Based on that, it's quite refreshing to see statistics like this.

The chances of being murdered by a gun in Australia plunged to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2014 from 0.54 per 100,000 people in 1996, a decline of 72 percent, a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed.

In 1996, Australia had 311 murders, of which 98 were with guns. In 2014, with the population up from about 18 million to 23 million, Australia had 238 murders, of which 35 were with guns.
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Weapon use in violent crime (number of victims per year)
 
genghis khan said:
Amazing comment! Amazing because there are a number of politicians who hold out Australia as an example of how well the gun control laws work, but when the actual size of the "problem" is revealed, suddenly it's like "you've got to be kidding me! 755 arrests isn't a even good weekend in Chicago!"

Those politicians have no clue as to the real extent of gun violence in Australia, eh, mate?

Nor do they seem to understand that gun crime in their Utopia is actually rising. Yet they pander to people [voters] who think, for example, that the law actually did away with handguns (see video) when in fact, the Australian Crime Commission conservatively estimates there are over 260,000 illegal weapons running around the island, 10,000 of which are handguns.



To borrow a line from Jefferson Airplane, "when the truth is found to be lies. And all the joy within you dies."
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How many mass shootings with AR15s have they had since 1996? Again, 266,000 errant guns for 23 million people isn't bad at all.

You're trying to read into my comments and you're projecting.

Please just read what I wrote and comment only on the points I make.
 
jet57 said:
How many mass shootings with AR15s have they had since 1996? Again, 266,000 errant guns for 23 million people isn't bad at all.

You're trying to read into my comments and you're projecting.

Please just read what I wrote and comment only on the points I make.
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so Jet wants to ban AR 15s'

we get that you want the rest of the USA to suffer under the same moronic Democrat gun laws that the idiots in California have allowed to take place. Australia is irrelevant to the USA Jet. And Australia didn't have much in the way of mass shootings before or after their massive gun forced buy back.

AR 15s-every honest citizen should buy one.
 
Serenity said:
Melbourne - population 4.1 Million.


Despite years of attempting to explain to the posters here that Australia doesn't have a gun culture and it's simply idiotic to try and equate our two Countries, folks here still attempt to do it. We even have posters in this thread throwing around unprovoked comments like "sheep" and "wooly low wattage whankers", comments that really do nothing other than show that there are those clearly not interested in any reasonable or educated debate.

So go on. I've said it till I'm blue in the face that it's idiotic to equate our two countries and what works for us doesn't mean it will work for you guys but hey, you want to insist on equating the two and throw around idiotic comments then knock yourself out. Post statistics of shootings for US cities with a similar population. 99 shootings in the past 20 months in Melbourne.

Either stop comparing and attempting to equate our two countries or lets see your "comparisons."
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Only rabid gun control advocates compare countries. It is idiotic as five seconds with a functional brain will show that these country comparisons fools have no explanation for the anomalies of Switzerland and Japan. When asked to explain why their comparison fails with these two countries they have no answer and pretend they do not exist. There are many others and if a broad survey is done it will show that there is not even a correlation between guns and crime. That is a fact they simply cannot comprehend. Never-the-less it is supported by all honest research. There simply is no causal relationship between levels of firearm ownership and crime.

Oh!! my goodness does that mean gun control is a lie promoted by low wattage types who are more impressed by snake oil salesmen than facts? Yes. They are to damn dumb to realise it.

Now you have seen my comparison.
 
NonoBadDog said:
Australia is used as a model by a lot of gun rights people as a successful gun ban policy. Is your belief that using Australia's gun laws as an example of any kind is disingenuous as it relates to gun laws?
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Nor can one of them explain why it takes eight (8) years to kick in when it was decreasing prior to the buyback. The only thing that can be show to have an relevance it such measures are more likel;y to cause an increase of crime. For this see UK 12 years of increased crime, Australia 8 years of increased crime, Jamaica, South Africa....... It's funny the only observable record of gun control is an immediate increase of crime yet the proponents of gun control want nothing to do with that trauma, injury and death they have caused.
 
Serenity said:
I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself here. How many times have I stated that there is no comparison between our two Countries and it is dishonest to even attempt to equate the two in this thread alone? Clearly that would indicate that I believe using Australia's gun laws as a comparison is disingenuous in US gun control discussions. I strongly disagree with both sides of the debate going down that line. I don't for one minute (nor have I ever here), suggested that what works for Australia/Australians in relation to gun control will ever work for those in the US. We don't have a gun culture here, there is no comparison.
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If you ever can get that message into Floggers or Jets head I'll call you really really good.

It is not possible for gun control to work anywhere except in a dimension where the laws of physics do not apply. That is the only answer to the question of how do guns cause crime.

If gun control worked then after 200 years and more than 100,000 more strict laws gun control cannot show one single law it can claim is a repeatable success. Gun control has a record of 100% failure. Yet we have charlatans, scoundrels and indoctrinated fools that firmly believe gun control will work next time.
 
Crimefree said:
If you ever can get that message into Floggers or Jets head I'll call you really really good.

It is not possible for gun control to work anywhere except in a dimension where the laws of physics do not apply. That is the only answer to the question of how do guns cause crime.

If gun control worked then after 200 years and more than 100,000 more strict laws gun control cannot show one single law it can claim is a repeatable success. Gun control has a record of 100% failure. Yet we have charlatans, scoundrels and indoctrinated fools that firmly believe gun control will work next time.
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you are wrong-but for reasons that are not stated. Gun control works exactly as its promoters intend it work. And crime control is not that intent. Harassment of citizens owning or possessing firearms is the real goal of gun control and that harassment is obviously really and proof that the laws work as intended.

there is no legal use of handguns in England by private citizens anymore. The law achieved its real goal. Australian shooters are prevented from using many rifles that we Americans take for granted. That law worked as intended. IPSC/USPSA shooters in Bannerrhoid states are limited to what they can buy. A guy I shoot steel with is moving to Massachusetts, at his last match he was selling off his STI magazines (22 rounds or so) because he cannot own them there. again the laws in that state accomplished what the promoters of those laws want-honest people not being able to own stuff that is almost never used in crime but which allows the Bannerrhoids to get a foothold to incrementally ban more and more stuff
 
TurtleDude said:
you are wrong-but for reasons that are not stated. Gun control works exactly as its promoters intend it work. And crime control is not that intent. Harassment of citizens owning or possessing firearms is the real goal of gun control and that harassment is obviously really and proof that the laws work as intended.

there is no legal use of handguns in England by private citizens anymore. The law achieved its real goal. Australian shooters are prevented from using many rifles that we Americans take for granted. That law worked as intended. IPSC/USPSA shooters in Bannerrhoid states are limited to what they can buy. A guy I shoot steel with is moving to Massachusetts, at his last match he was selling off his STI magazines (22 rounds or so) because he cannot own them there. again the laws in that state accomplished what the promoters of those laws want-honest people not being able to own stuff that is almost never used in crime but which allows the Bannerrhoids to get a foothold to incrementally ban more and more stuff
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Well pointed out.

Yep unless one looks at it from gun controls view point, then gun control works very well. Most people do not realise how well. That little irritation of magazine size, type of firearm, training, permits, increased costs all serve to remove owners and potential owners. John Lott gives a nice estimation of how may CCW permits are removed by every 1$ increase in cost in more guns less crime I think.

Every law, intervention and impediment is a victory to gun control in more than one way. First there is the direct result of removal for owners. Then the far more important to gun control is the collateral damage as each law is accepted as valid to be complied with and not objected to by firearm owners. This is the most serious loss because those who accept something are never going to fight it or even object. It also breeds elitism, we passed and are better than others who do not deserve to be owners.... There is nothing worse than collaborators and elitists in your camp sowing dissension.
 
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