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There seems to be very little correlation between gun laws and gun deaths[W76]

justabubba said:
why are there more gun homicides per capita in the USA?
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why do white Americans-with far easier access to firearms than Europeans-have no higher rates of gun violence than white Europeans who live in Nanny states that don't trust their citizens to easily own firearms?
 
TurtleDude said:
why do white Americans-with far easier access to firearms than Europeans-have no higher rates of gun violence than white Europeans who live in Nanny states that don't trust their citizens to easily own firearms?
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you ask that question as if you know the answer. share it with us
 
justabubba said:
you ask that question as if you know the answer. share it with us
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I do-its because gun control doesn't control crime. the only relationship gun control has with crime control is that its a placebo government leaders offer up to satisfy the low wattage voters who want something DONE RIGHT NOW.
 
Masterhawk said:
Increasing gun control won't really lower homicides. It might lower gun violence but homicide rates will be around the same. Just look at DC with strict gun control yet higher homicide rate than the 50 states. you know the saying "guns don't kill people. People kill people."? It means the best way to combat gun crimes is to use effective methods to decrease homicide such as patrolling high crime areas and educating people on how to avoid being murdered.


but it won't lower knife violence
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I gave you the gun scorecard website that has its findings of the gun laws per state and did some research on how those affected based on their data. I like their approach to it and I believe making people aware of their state legislation and working from there will help lower gun violence.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say "gun control." I'm not sure what you were referring to that you think will not help.

The knife violence is discussed in that freakonomics podcast episode I linked. Those men discussing this topic do a better job than me because they are more college educated than I am. I would recommend you listen to them because they are experts at what they do.


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CivicED said:
I gave you the gun scorecard website that has its findings of the gun laws per state and did some research on how those affected based on their data. I like their approach to it and I believe making people aware of their state legislation and working from there will help lower gun violence.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say "gun control." I'm not sure what you were referring to that you think will not help.

The knife violence is discussed in that freakonomics podcast episode I linked. Those men discussing this topic do a better job than me because they are more college educated than I am. I would recommend you listen to them because they are experts at what they do.


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the Bannerrhoid propaganda site you cited rates VERMONT as an F and California and Maryland among the best. Have you figured out that their ratings is not based on PUBLIC safety but how much a state harasses lawful gun owners?
 
TurtleDude said:
I do-its because gun control doesn't control crime. the only relationship gun control has with crime control is that its a placebo government leaders offer up to satisfy the low wattage voters who want something DONE RIGHT NOW.
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my contention is you cannot know this

quantifying how many gun homicides did not occur because of gun control is attempting to prove a negative

hopefully they discussed in law school why one does not want to attempt that line of 'reason'
 
justabubba said:
my contention is you cannot know this

quantifying how many gun homicides did not occur because of gun control is attempting to prove a negative

hopefully they discussed in law school why one does not want to attempt that line of 'reason'
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Just because you are unable to KNOW this or to understand it doesn't mean those of us who are far better educated in this area are so limited.
 
TurtleDude said:
too many in the hands of those who cannot own them legally. Too few in the hands of honest people who want them. That scorecard is beyond stupid and it comes from a bannerrhoid propaganda center

Vermont gets an F and is far safer than California or Maryland. The people who put that nonsense together are enemies of our constitutional rights
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I agree that in a country with so many guns your best option is to get a gun and shoot it out like the wild west. There are so many guns in this country at this point that the dishonest people can get their hands on them easily.

I also agree that it's our constitutional right and that we are a country that's pro-gun. I do not deny this at all.

Vermont is an F because they can do better on its gun legislation as the website has said. It even gets reasons I how it can do better. The argument of whether a state it's safe to live in it or not I am not going to try to make. That was not my point to make.

You are definitely right that it's gun control propaganda. But again it's something I like to help understand the gun laws in your state. Do you have a better tool to do this? Or do you think it's important for citizens to understand the laws their state has for guns?


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CivicED said:
I agree that in a country with so many guns your best option is to get a gun and shoot it out like the wild west. There are so many guns in this country at this point that the dishonest people can get their hands on them easily.

I also agree that it's our constitutional right and that we are a country that's pro-gun. I do not deny this at all.

Vermont is an F because they can do better on its gun legislation as the website has said. It even gets reasons I how it can do better. The argument of whether a state it's safe to live in it or not I am not going to try to make. That was not my point to make.

You are definitely right that it's gun control propaganda. But again it's something I like to help understand the gun laws in your state. Do you have a better tool to do this? Or do you think it's important for citizens to understand the laws their state has for guns?


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I think most "gun control" laws need to be erased. I want crime control laws. all the things the Bannerrhoid movement wants are to harass legal gun owners and decrease legal gun ownership.
 
TurtleDude said:
Just because you are unable to KNOW this or to understand it doesn't mean those of us who are far better educated in this area are so limited.
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then share your data with us showing how many homicides were prevented via gun control
 
TurtleDude said:
I think most "gun control" laws need to be erased. I want crime control laws. all the things the Bannerrhoid movement wants are to harass legal gun owners and decrease legal gun ownership.
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So I think we were agreeing from the start. Let me ask you a question that might help me understand we are on the same page.

You want our Congress to enact laws that prevent crime with guns?

Same kind of question but asking it differently-

Do you want laws that punish people severely for doing crime with guns so that it prevents crime with guns?


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justabubba said:
then share your data with us showing how many homicides were prevented via gun control
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I don't have a duty to do that since I oppose most gun control. The ONLY rational argument for gun control (as you want it) is that is substantively decreases crime. the BURDEN is on the freedom haters who claim gun control decreases crime to prove that

GUESS WHAT, in the USA no one has been able to make that argument
 
CivicED said:
So I think we were agreeing from the start. Let me ask you a question that might help me understand we are on the same page.

You want our Congress to enact laws that prevent crime with guns?

Same kind of question but asking it differently-

Do you want laws that punish people severely for doing crime with guns so that it prevents crime with guns?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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People who commit violent crimes should be in prison. we put too many people who do not commit VIOLENT crimes in prison and let too many VIOLENT criminals out too soon. STATES should enhance criminals sentences for those who engage in violence or threaten violence.

the following CRAP needs to go away period

1) the 1934 NFA-its unconstitutional

2) the Hughes amendment to the GCA of 68-its unconstitutional

3) the GCA of 68-its unconstitutional

4) the Lautenberg Amendment to the 69 GCA-its unconstitutional

5) magazine limits at a state level

6) "assault weapon bans" at a state level

7) limits on how many firearms you can buy in a given time period

8) "may issue" CCW licenses. they should all be shall issue
 
Goshin said:
Crime Rate Lower in United States, Canada Than in Britain

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Daily Mail Online


https://www.reddit.com/r/progun/comments/1wxf6v/actually_the_uk_is_more_violent_than_the_us_at/
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it would appear this is a bogus comparison ... as is proffered within the middle cite

here is but one example that tells us the cited data is invalid:
The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.
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that data would tell us that canada is over twice as violent as the USA. a laughable assertion

arguendo, pretending that your data is actually valid, then i offer this: if the brits were that violent without ready access to guns, imagine the carnage that would result if guns were as available to the limeys as they are to the yanks
 
justabubba said:
it would appear this is a bogus comparison ... as is proffered within the middle cite

here is but one example that tells us the cited data is invalid:

that data would tell us that canada is over twice as violent as the USA. a laughable assertion

arguendo, pretending that your data is actually valid, then i offer this: if the brits were that violent without ready access to guns, imagine the carnage that would result if guns were as available to the limeys as they are to the yanks
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why do gun banners want to argue about crime control when we all know that crime control is at best a facade gun banners erect to hide their real motivation for wanting to ban guns?
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't have a duty to do that since I oppose most gun control. The ONLY rational argument for gun control (as you want it) is that is substantively decreases crime. the BURDEN is on the freedom haters who claim gun control decreases crime to prove that

GUESS WHAT, in the USA no one has been able to make that argument
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your insistence is that gun control is ineffective, yet you cannot qualtify your assertion. hardly a circumstance that causes a reasonable person to adopt your position


in contrast, i will submit that there have been gun injuries that would have resulted had guns been permitted into federal courtrooms and public airports. i am confident in projecting gun carnage would have resulted if it were legal to drink in bars/taverns and also bear arms. what we find is that well reasoned gun control, such as those examples, illustrate that gun control DOES mitigate gun carnage
 
justabubba said:
your insistence is that gun control is ineffective, yet you cannot qualtify your assertion. hardly a circumstance that causes a reasonable person to adopt your position


in contrast, i will submit that there have been gun injuries that would have resulted had guns been permitted into federal courtrooms and public airports. i am confident in projecting gun carnage would have resulted if it were legal to drink in bars/taverns and also bear arms. what we find is that well reasoned gun control, such as those examples, illustrate that gun control DOES mitigate gun carnage
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you just don't get the obvious

its people like You who have to prove restrictions on our freedoms substantially improve public safety.

You cannot. you are just making crap up and what is even more dishonest is that a thorough examination of your many posts on gun issues proves that public safety has nothing to do with your advocacy of gun bans. Rather you detest the politics of freedom advocates and serious gun owners and you push for laws that harass them
 
TurtleDude said:
that's one of the most moronic suggestions I have ever seen Mickey. if you want to get rid of criminal violence, getting rid of the idiotic war on drugs (better termed the war on our civil rights by greedy government officials)
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I'm all for eliminating the people who are poisoning our children...on a daily basis. Sure every Tom, Dick and Harry in the government, is supporting those drug traders, because they are using as well.....but the DP for major Dealers, is fine with me. Also, I'd like to see public executions again.
 
TurtleDude said:
I do-its because gun control doesn't control crime. the only relationship gun control has with crime control is that its a placebo government leaders offer up to satisfy the low wattage voters who want something DONE RIGHT NOW.
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Yep.......
 
More prison time and a greater use of the DP.
 
justabubba said:
your insistence is that gun control is ineffective, yet you cannot qualtify your assertion. hardly a circumstance that causes a reasonable person to adopt your position


in contrast, i will submit that there have been gun injuries that would have resulted had guns been permitted into federal courtrooms and public airports. i am confident in projecting gun carnage would have resulted if it were legal to drink in bars/taverns and also bear arms. what we find is that well reasoned gun control, such as those examples, illustrate that gun control DOES mitigate gun carnage
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No....................we find no such thing. There is nothing reasonable about gun control. You can be wrongfully confident all you want, but you are wrong.

I bet you don't know that many judges pack heat, while on the bench.
 
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