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Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516:1716:2243]

Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
you just said its only theory, well i answered you, its not theory.....as you can see by what the government has said about unwritten law.
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And specifically in the real temporal world where people live where would I find these rights that were not written down or not in statue or not in Constitutions but were there as protected behaviors and being exercised just the same by real people who understood they had these rights?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
you dont understand..this is a case being adjudicated by a STATE court under american law, there is no Yugoslavian law adjudicated because the STATE court does not HAVE SUCH AUTHORITY
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You're right, I don't understand. Now you're just repeating yourself. The individual with power of attorney testified that "Yugoslavia grants rights of inheritance to heirs or beneficiaries who are residents and citizens of the United States out of estates of persons who die in Yugoslavia and whose estates are in Yugoslavia."

Moreover, the state's contention was in regard to alien heirs:
The state relies on subdivision 6 of section 91-520, R.C.M. 1947, which came into the statute by an amendment made by Chapter 31, Laws of 1951. It reads: "No estate in which alien heirs, devisees and/or legatees have a distributive share shall be considered to be in a condition to petition for final distribution, unless, the court enters a written order in such estate decreeing that an action for determination of heirship has been instituted in which the State of Montana was made a party-defendant and that a decree determining heirship has been entered and filed in said action."
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If all you are trying to do is give a legal definition of what unwritten law means, then surely, it's not necessary to draw upon this particular case law. Is there any other example?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Crimefree said:
What are you looking for as evidence beyond what you have already been given, they are in the pubic domain.

You want a shoe box with a pile of papers stating what these laws are. Have you tried google?

Natural and legal rights are two types of rights. Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system (i.e., rights that can be modified, repealed, and restrained by human laws). Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable (i.e., rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws).

The idea that certain rights are natural or inalienable also has a history dating back at least to the Stoics of late Antiquity and Catholic law of the early Middle Ages, and descending through the Protestant Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment to today.

The Zoroastrian religion taught Iranians that citizens have an inalienable right to enlightened leadership and that the duty of subjects is not simply to obey wise kings but also to rise up against those who are wicked. Leaders are seen as representative of God on earth, but they deserve allegiance only as long as they have farr, a kind of divine blessing that they must earn by moral behavior.

Seneca the Younger wrote: It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.~~Wiki

I'm reasonably sure if you go scratching in Sumerian texts you will find some reference and as far as writing goes that's the end of the line.
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My question is a very very very simple one that is not at all complex or nuanced or needs any big explanation invoking theory or belief: if you claim that the rights in the Bill of Rights were already pre-existing, where in the actual real world of America were there real people who enjoyed and exercised these behaviors as rights before government placed them in Constitutions and in law?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
And specifically in the real temporal world where people live where would I find these rights that were not written down or not in statue or not in Constitutions but were there as protected behaviors and being exercised just the same by real people who understood they had these rights?
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unwritten law....not written down, means they are not enacted by a legislative body into law, but the courts recognize them as pre- existing before government.

rights which are listed in the bill of rights are not enacted, but only recognize by government, all rights not listed fall under the 9th amendment

the right to privacy is not a listed right of the constitution, however the USSC recognized it as a pre- existing right of the people.

UNWRITTEN LAW

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

Most laws in America are written. The u.s. code, the code of federal regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In constitutional law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution.

Unwritten Law - Dictionary definition of Unwritten Law | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
unwritten law....not written down, means they are not enacted by a legislative body into law, but the courts recognize them as pre- existing before government.

rights which are listed in the bill of rights are not enacted, but only recognize by government, all rights not listed fall under the 9th amendment

the right to privacy is not a listed right of the constitution, however the USSC recognized it as a pre- existing right of the people.

UNWRITTEN LAW

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

Most laws in America are written. The u.s. code, the code of federal regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In constitutional law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution.

Unwritten Law - Dictionary definition of Unwritten Law | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary
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Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.
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Are we a nation of illiterates or are we a nation in which novel and harmful practices fall into disuse?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Celebrity said:
You're right, I don't understand. Now you're just repeating yourself. The individual with power of attorney testified that "Yugoslavia grants rights of inheritance to heirs or beneficiaries who are residents and citizens of the United States out of estates of persons who die in Yugoslavia and whose estates are in Yugoslavia."

Moreover, the state's contention was in regard to alien heirs:


If all you are trying to do is give a legal definition of what unwritten law means, then surely, it's not necessary to draw upon this particular case law. Is there any other example?
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this is an example of our court system recognizing unwritten law exists.


R.C.M. 1947, § 93-1001-11, defines unwritten law as follows: "Unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, as mentioned in section 93-1001-8, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country.

R.C.M = Revised Codes of Montana

[[h=1]UNWRITTEN LAW[/h]Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.
Most laws in America are written. The u.s. code, the code of federal regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.

Much of international law is a form of primitive unwritten law. For centuries the rules of war governing hostilities between belligerents consisted of a body of unwritten law. While some of these rules have been codified by international bodies such as the united nations, many have not. For example, retaliatory reprisals against acts of terrorism by a foreign government are still governed by unwritten customs in the international community. Each nation also retains discretion in formulating a response to the aggressive acts of a neighboring state.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In constitutional law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution. In commercial law the uniform commercial code permits merchants to resolve legal disputes by introducing evidence of unwritten customs, practices, and usages that others in the same trade generally follow. The entire body of common law, comprising cases decided by judges on matters relating to torts and contracts, among other things, is said to reflect unwritten standards that have evolved over time. In each case, however, once a court, legislature, or other government body formally adopts a standard, principle, or maxim in writing, it ceases to be an unwritten law.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
:doh.....
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. Novel and harmful practices might mean; arming child soldiers, widely distributing automatic weapons not necessary for civilian activities, grenade launchers and WMD's, etc.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Celebrity said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Novel and harmful practices might mean; arming child soldiers, widely distributing automatic weapons not necessary for civilian activities, grenade launchers and WMD's, etc.
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already you asserted that the Montana case was about Yugoslavian law, when you failed there you try a different angle, just stop with the silliness.

rights of the people are unwritten law, which is recognized by the courts of this nation.

the USA is a common law system, which is unwritten law
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Celebrity said:
Are we a nation of illiterates or are we a nation in which novel and harmful practices fall into disuse?
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Why are strawman arguments so often chosen by those who are clueless and have nothing of consequence to offer?

Utterly irrelevant untrue supposition and application to a limited period. Common law is when you shack up with your girlfriend for twenty years and then claim it was a one night stand. Common law is when you strike a deal with a hand shake and a witness is produced when you try to weasel out.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Celebrity said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Novel and harmful practices might mean; arming child soldiers, widely distributing automatic weapons not necessary for civilian activities, grenade launchers and WMD's, etc.
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People who think like that should possibly be under restraint for their own good.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
unwritten law....not written down, means they are not enacted by a legislative body into law, but the courts recognize them as pre- existing before government.

rights which are listed in the bill of rights are not enacted, but only recognize by government, all rights not listed fall under the 9th amendment

the right to privacy is not a listed right of the constitution, however the USSC recognized it as a pre- existing right of the people.

UNWRITTEN LAW

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.

Most laws in America are written. The u.s. code, the code of federal regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In constitutional law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution.

Unwritten Law - Dictionary definition of Unwritten Law | Encyclopedia.com: FREE online dictionary
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You could save yourself lots of repetition of the same old nonsense if you just admitted you CANNOT point to such rights actually existing with real people in the real world who exercised those behaviors as actual rights. Because you never have found that yet.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Crimefree said:
People who think like that should possibly be under restraint for their own good.
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Do you speak from experience about the benefits of restraining the delusional?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
Do you speak from experience about the benefits of restraining the delusional?
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Yes I have seen first hand the stupid things they do and say. It gives one more understanding of what the delusional are capable of. Why do you ask? Somebody you know well? A friend perhaps?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
You could save yourself lots of repetition of the same old nonsense if you just admitted you CANNOT point to such rights actually existing with real people in the real world who exercised those behaviors as actual rights. Because you never have found that yet.
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:lamo...point......how do you point to something which is unwritten?

if government created rights, then they could be pointed to because they are written, there is no written law granting rights for the people of the USA
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Crimefree said:
Yes I have seen first hand the stupid things they do and say. It gives one more understanding of what the delusional are capable of. Why do you ask? Somebody you know well? A friend perhaps?
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I got the impression you were speaking from your own first hand experience.

Tell me again about slaves who are really free and have rights. I want to know more about that amazing concept. Because on the surface it sounds like your man Seneca is the one who needs severe restraints and is beyond delusional.

from your previous post a few pages ago

Seneca the Younger wrote: It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.
Click to expand...
 
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Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
:lamo...point......how do you point to something which is unwritten?

if government created rights, then they could be pointed to because they are written, there is no written law granting rights for the people of the USA
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You point to the real people in the real world who enjoyed real rights and provide verifiable evidence that they exercise and enjoyed these behaviors as rights. Then we will know those so called pre-existing rights really did truly actually exist in the real world with real people and not just some abstraction of the belief holder.

But you never seem to be able to do that as all you do is spout theories about government and law and history but real people seem to not enter into the discussion.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
You point to the real people in the real world who enjoyed real rights and provide verifiable evidence that they exercise and enjoyed these behaviors as rights. Then we will know those so called pre-existing rights really did truly actually exist in the real world with real people and not just some abstraction of the belief holder.

But you never seem to be able to do that as all you do is spout theories about government and law and history but real people seem to not enter into the discussion.
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point to real people?:doh
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
point to real people?:doh
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You do know what real people in the real world are???????????

Don't you?

For example, If I proclaim that Americans today enjoy the right to vote, I can point to evidence of elections where hundreds of millions of American vote and governmental actions to protect, honor and help that right in being exercised. I don't have to point to the five different listings in the Constitution of the RIGHT TO VOTE - I can show the right in real life with actual people exercising that right.

So tell us all, where is your evidence of real people in the real world exercising these so called pre-existing rights before constitutions?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
You do know what real people in the real world are???????????

Don't you?

For example, If I proclaim that Americans today enjoy the right to vote, I can point to evidence of elections where hundreds of millions of American vote and governmental actions to protect, honor and help that right in being exercised. I don't have to point to the five different listings in the Constitution of the RIGHT TO VOTE - I can show the right in real life with actual people exercising that right.

So tell us all, where is your evidence of real people in the real world exercising these so called pre-existing rights before constitutions?
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you have stated that the USSC created the right to vote 5 times.

rights are can consist of customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

we know customs, traditions, practices, usages existed before government
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
typo - own a gun.
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Ok. Cool. Makes sense now lol.


Point remains. A right is not a granting of abilities, and is a limit on the power of the government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Master PO said:
you have stated that the USSC created the right to vote 5 times.

rights are can consist of customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

we know customs, traditions, practices, usages existed before government
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there is the difference between your arguments and mine. I give you a real right and can point to it outside of law or government document as proof it exists.

You on the other hand, claim these pre-existing natural rights but can show no such people who actually exercised them.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

blackjack50 said:
Ok. Cool. Makes sense now lol.


Point remains. A right is not a granting of abilities, and is a limit on the power of the government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It is granting government and societal protections to a certain behavior that people want as a right.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

haymarket said:
It is granting government and societal protections to a certain behavior that people want as a right.
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Lol. Really dude? Come one. Are you really going to play this silly game? I have you. You know. Just give it up and admit it. A right is a recognition of the limits of a government's authority.


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