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Which of these gun measures do you support?

Which of these gun measures do you support?

  • A ban on certain civilian semi-automatic weapons deemed to be assault weapons.

    Votes: 5 8.2%

  • A ban on 10 to 30 round standard capacity magazines deemed to be high capacity magazines.

    Votes: 7 11.5%

  • Permits/licenses to purchase and or keep firearms

    Votes: 8 13.1%

  • Universal background checks

    Votes: 18 29.5%

  • Firearm registration

    Votes: 11 18.0%

  • Liability insurance to own a gun

    Votes: 6 9.8%

  • Bullet micro-stamping

    Votes: 6 9.8%

  • Waiting period to purchase firearms

    Votes: 11 18.0%

  • Excessive taxes on firearms and ammunition.

    Votes: 1 1.6%

  • I do not support any of the above.

    Votes: 39 63.9%
  • Total voters
    61
blackjack50 said:
You said a gun wasn't simply a tool. It is JUST a tool. Period. It is SIMPLY a tool.
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This has been discussed with you in detail in previous posts.
 
haymarket said:
This has been discussed with you in detail in previous posts.
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So that is a no on an productive discussion in which we actually hash out the real problem
 
blackjack50 said:
So that is a no on an productive discussion in which we actually hash out the real problem
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Hit send and I can't edit posts right now. So...

...problem with violence and our society fostering personality disorders and the victim mentality that causes people to avoid personal responsibility and lash out against everyone. Or the problems with our drug laws and lack of job creation for no skill/low skill labor.
 
blackjack50 said:
So that is a no on an productive discussion in which we actually hash out the real problem
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You have demonstrated over and over and over that a so called productive discussion is not even on the horizon. You want admission of the validity of a right wing meme - and I have no interest in validating that for you.
 
haymarket said:
And what is the claim of fact I made in 210 that you believe was refuted?
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Oh so you understood at the time and now you want to quibble about it. Your grandstanding and soapbox responses are irrelevant. You asked a question and got what you asked for. Do you want me to comprehend it for you as well?

One minute you claim to be an expert who can understand the wording and motivations of the constitution drafters and compilers of dictionaries better than the originators. The next you are playing dumb? Which is it?

What did you say guns were designed for? Do back it up with some compelling scientific and logical evidence.

Was it answered and refuted?
 
haymarket said:
You have demonstrated over and over and over that a so called productive discussion is not even on the horizon. You want admission of the validity of a right wing meme - and I have no interest in validating that for you.
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A productive discussion would start off by defining the problem, then looking at the causes of that problem and addressing those causes or at the very least the important ones as most are not useful in isolation. Poverty for instance is a better indicator when is is gross or widespread poverty.

However that is not the subject you wish to foister as worthy of discussion. Discussion of non causal factors is not productive. What ever gave you that idea?
 
haymarket said:
You have demonstrated over and over and over that a so called productive discussion is not even on the horizon. You want admission of the validity of a right wing meme - and I have no interest in validating that for you.
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Have a nice day. Glad we could have a discussion in which we could rationally look at the issue.
 
blackjack50 said:
Have a nice day. Glad we could have a discussion in which we could rationally look at the issue.
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A good first step would be agreement on exactly what THE ISSUE is. And that never seems to come about.

How can anybody have an honest discussion when there is not even any basic agreement on what the issue is in the first place?

When I debated for 2 years in college, all basic terms were defined in the first minute of the debate. Both sides here have not agreed on any definition of terms ever, let alone in the first minute.

So how is honest and productive discussion even possible?
 
haymarket said:
A good first step would be agreement on exactly what THE ISSUE is. And that never seems to come about.

How can anybody have an honest discussion when there is not even any basic agreement on what the issue is in the first place?

When I debated for 2 years in college, all basic terms were defined in the first minute of the debate. Both sides here have not agreed on any definition of terms ever, let alone in the first minute.

So how is honest and productive discussion even possible?
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This isn't a college debate. So we aren't defining terms. We can have a discussion without doing so. And THE issue is that people commit murder. How doesn't matter. Like I said: 80 years of gun control or 80 years of community and mental health improvement with actions designed to reduce murder and crime.

Have a nice day. The discussion went nowhere.
 
blackjack50 said:
This isn't a college debate. So we aren't defining terms. We can have a discussion without doing so. And THE issue is that people commit murder. How doesn't matter. Like I said: 80 years of gun control or 80 years of community and mental health improvement with actions designed to reduce murder and crime.

Have a nice day. The discussion went nowhere.
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If the two sides do NOT define and agree on terms there never is any foundation for debate as you are not even arguing about the same thing.

Which explains a great deal of the basic problem in discussions about guns.
 
haymarket said:
If the two sides do NOT define and agree on terms there never is any foundation for debate as you are not even arguing about the same thing.

Which explains a great deal of the basic problem in discussions about guns.
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This is not a college debate. This is a discussion. And one that goes nowhere because one side is wrapped up in the minutia rather than the big picture. Have a nice day.
 
blackjack50 said:
This is not a college debate. This is a discussion. And one that goes nowhere because one side is wrapped up in the minutia rather than the big picture. Have a nice day.
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Until the owners change the name and purpose of the site - DEBATE is what this site is about. But I believe it is YOUR SIDE which is wrapped up in minutia while you believe it is mine. And the fact that we stereotype each other into sides is part of the problem.

But lets give it a chance. What do you think the actual issue is here?
 
haymarket said:
Until the owners change the name and purpose of the site - DEBATE is what this site is about. But I believe it is YOUR SIDE which is wrapped up in minutia while you believe it is mine. And the fact that we stereotype each other into sides is part of the problem.

But lets give it a chance. What do you think the actual issue is here?
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The issue is murder. The issue is that our society doesn't approach it by trying to end gang violence, improve mental health care, and on and on. Our society focuses on the minutia as if there is a silver bullet. There isn't. And we we have slowly gotten better we have had lower rates of murder. But we still aren't dealing with the real problems.
 
blackjack50 said:
The issue is murder. The issue is that our society doesn't approach it by trying to end gang violence, improve mental health care, and on and on. Our society focuses on the minutia as if there is a silver bullet. There isn't. And we we have slowly gotten better we have had lower rates of murder. But we still aren't dealing with the real problems.
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Okay - the issue is murder. Please look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

If we talk about first world developed industrial nations like the USA, one can easily see that nations which have far more restrictive laws and policies on private gun ownership have lower murder rates.

For example Japan and the United Kingdom have much more restrictive laws than the USA in this area and the comparative murder rates are

USA 3.8
United Kingdom 1.0
Japan 0.3

Yes - there are other factors at work also and it is impossible to successfully isolate one factor from all the others and state positively that it is the most important factor. I readily admit to that reality.

But the stats should not be ignored and should be cause for more discussion.
 
haymarket said:
Okay - the issue is murder. Please look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

If we talk about first world developed industrial nations like the USA, one can easily see that nations which have far more restrictive laws and policies on private gun ownership have lower murder rates.

For example Japan and the United Kingdom have much more restrictive laws than the USA in this area and the comparative murder rates are

USA 3.8
United Kingdom 1.0
Japan 0.3

Yes - there are other factors at work also and it is impossible to successfully isolate one factor from all the others and state positively that it is the most important factor. I readily admit to that reality.

But the stats should not be ignored and should be cause for more discussion.
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Well can we learn why the UK is over 3 times higher than Japan? It seems to me that if we are going to start looking at different nations, then we have to consider the hundreds of variables like police, health care, culture, socioeconomics, laws on actual government abilities to deal with crime (believe it or not...not having a 4th amendment is huge when dealing with criminals).
 
blackjack50 said:
Well can we learn why the UK is over 3 times higher than Japan? It seems to me that if we are going to start looking at different nations, then we have to consider the hundreds of variables like police, health care, culture, socioeconomics, laws on actual government abilities to deal with crime (believe it or not...not having a 4th amendment is huge when dealing with criminals).
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Absolutely. Those difference and variables need to be studied.

But at the end of the day you said the issue was murder. And the murder rate in the USA is nearly four times what the UK is and over twelve times what Japan is. No doubt that culture accounts for some of this. But I suspect that the availability of guns also plays role and that role is not insignificant.
 
haymarket said:
Absolutely. Those difference and variables need to be studied.

But at the end of the day you said the issue was murder. And the murder rate in the USA is nearly four times what the UK is and over twelve times what Japan is. No doubt that culture accounts for some of this. But I suspect that the availability of guns also plays role and that role is not insignificant.
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But then you have to look at other statistics. Guns are readily available to MILLIONS of Americans. 100s of millions really. Because just because you don't own a gun doesn't mean you don't have the ability to by one tomorrow for $100 or so.

So now the question about that is: why don't WE have a higher rate? Personally? I think it is because most people aren't locked into desperate situations where they either lack the intelligence or ability (mentally) to get out. So they get driven into violent crime.

One thing we DO know is that police actions have a big impact on gang violence. New York City is a great example of a police presence drastically dropping crime. But do we as a nation want more cops? Probably not the way things have gone in the past 5 years.
 
blackjack50 said:
But then you have to look at other statistics. Guns are readily available to MILLIONS of Americans. 100s of millions really. Because just because you don't own a gun doesn't mean you don't have the ability to by one tomorrow for $100 or so.

So now the question about that is: why don't WE have a higher rate? Personally? I think it is because most people aren't locked into desperate situations where they either lack the intelligence or ability (mentally) to get out. So they get driven into violent crime.

One thing we DO know is that police actions have a big impact on gang violence. New York City is a great example of a police presence drastically dropping crime. But do we as a nation want more cops? Probably not the way things have gone in the past 5 years.
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I would go even further. We don't have an ever higher rate of murder and other crime because most people are good decent folks and they can thrive in a great nation like ours with a system that gives most people more than a fighting chance.
 
haymarket said:
I would go even further. We don't have an ever higher rate of murder and other crime because most people are good decent folks and they can thrive in a great nation like ours with a system that gives most people more than a fighting chance.
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I agree. And thus the question becomes where does the system fail?
 
blackjack50 said:
I agree. And thus the question becomes where does the system fail?
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I wonder if it is not so much the system failing as the history of our nation and our people coming back to bite us in the posterior?
 
blackjack50 said:
I agree. And thus the question becomes where does the system fail?
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The system fails because citizens do not do their duty to ensure government acts correctly/ No government or official is held accountable or has any responsibility and they can now do as they want with very little or zero opposite if it is "for the good of the people".

Crime is an interested study in this. Every criminologist can say without fear of contradiction that the root causes of crime are all social problems. Yet when government tackles crime it ignores the root causes and creates a bogus crisis over guns so it can redirect its efforts and money. Fixing the social problems distracts from governments desire to create dependants as those same social problems lead directly to people who demand government aid.

Gun control for government is a win win win situation gaining more power and dependence on government handouts and services while giving a convenient scapegoat to blame crime on rather than governments obvious lack of attention to the causes.
 
haymarket said:
I wonder if it is not so much the system failing as the history of our nation and our people coming back to bite us in the posterior?
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As in us being a nation of rebellious types?
 
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