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3 laws could reduce firearm deaths by 90%...

MrT said:
Only if the claim being made by this study is that these gun regulations would stop suicides or reduce the number of suicides. That is not the case. It is a study that links these gun regulations to gun deaths.
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The article says "These three laws could cut US gun deaths by 90%, study says" meaning gun deaths in general, not just homicides. The article also mentions suicide. So when he article is proposing that three anti-2nd amendment laws could cut US gun deaths by 90% it is also talking about suicides.


Three laws could cut US gun deaths by 90%, study says | Ars Technica
The study, published in the The Lancet, tried to tease apart the independent effects that 25 state gun control laws implemented in various states in 2009 had on firearm related deaths (including homicides and suicides) between 2008 and 2010.


As for using a study to propose more "anti-2nd amendment" laws, well no ****. The point is to reduce gun violence in America. Targeting firearms in a reasonable and constitutional manner while significantly reducing gun violence is a worthwhile goal.
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Those proposals violate the 2nd amendment.
 
MrT said:
The study is focused on the reduction of gun deaths by these regulations. That would include gun deaths that are the result of an attempt to commit suicide. It is, of course, entirely possible that the suicidal individuals might still successfully kill themselves through other means and that aspect should be incredibly important to someone interested in trying to reduce all suicides.

However, that issue is not particularly relevant to someone trying to study the relationship between gun legislation and gun deaths.
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Several problems with your post:

Nobody dies from a suicide attempt.

Deaths from "other means" are not gun deaths thus are ignored by your gun death survey/research.

Too much of this "data" is simply correlation - assuming that because gun law X law was passed (or repealed) in 2009 that it caused some change in the 2010 gun deaths is illogical. Gun deaths change annually with or without any change in the gun laws - what, exactly, causes that miracle should be studied as well.

You simply cannot use a single variable to explain changes in a very complex situation. Looking at illegal drug overdose deaths is a prime example - they fluctuate annually with absolutely no changes in drug laws (in a given state) at all. Using that "data" one could say that not changing the drug laws "causes" that fluctuation. ;)

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/de..._illicit_drug_use_-_fact_sheet_april_2014.pdf
 
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jamesrage said:
The article says "These three laws could cut US gun deaths by 90%, study says" meaning gun deaths in general, not just homicides. The article also mentions suicide. So when he article is proposing that three anti-2nd amendment laws could cut US gun deaths by 90% it is also talking about suicides.

Three laws could cut US gun deaths by 90%, study says | Ars Technica
The study, published in the The Lancet, tried to tease apart the independent effects that 25 state gun control laws implemented in various states in 2009 had on firearm related deaths (including homicides and suicides) between 2008 and 2010.

Those proposals violate the 2nd amendment.
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And the laws would, at least according to this study, reduce suicides by a gun.

And you can't just make the blanket statement about it violating the second amendment when these laws already exist, are already enforced, and were previously ruled Constitutional by numerous courts.
 
TurtleDude said:
Actually that would cause far more problems than you could conceive of. And Chicago and DC proved it would do just what you want. Make criminals much safer
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Chicago and D.C. had problems with guns because they were still available in the neighboring areas. DUH!!!
 
MrT said:
...according to a study published in The Lancet, one of the oldest and best known general medical journals. A link to the paper can be found here. It is not behind a pay wall. And I encourage you to read the article before giving into your natural urge of resistance and google searching for articles that will provide with reasons to dismiss the findings. I would also ask that you review the paper in order to try to get a handle on how the study was conducted. It is rather complex.

If you are looking for a discussion of the paper, you can find one at CNN, Ars Technica, and Forbes.

The researchers studied twenty five existing state laws related to gun violence and found that nine were associated with lower rates of gun-related deaths. The three laws which were associated with the biggest reductions were, in order, 1) Universal background checks (39%), 2) Ammunition background checks (18%), and 3) Laws designed to aim with firearm identification (16%).

The Researchers readily admit that such reductions would take many years lower in order to fully implement. And yet, that is a worthwhile goal. There were 31, 672 firearm deaths in 2010 in the USA. Reducing that number is a worthwhile goal.

And yes, I am bias. I know that I am bias. I am not interested in you telling me that I am bias or that I want to ban guns. If you dispute the findings of this study - tell me why. If you dispute the necessity of reducing gun violence - tell me why. If you have another proposal that you believe is reasonable - tell me why.
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Oh, look. A rational scientfic paper on gun control.

I expect it to be widely trashed in the coming posts. We all know firearm deaths are a small price to pay for our freedom to get shot.

If you want to see the entire paper, its here: http://sci-hub.io/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(15)01026-0

The most interesting thing about the stats given is that of all the gun control measures put into place, the one that seems like it should reduce firearms deaths easily is actually correlated with a highly significant INCREASE in firearm death, and in fact, all the Child Access Prevention laws were negatively correlated. They postulate that that there is a tendency for states with firearms lock laws to be associated with higher rates of unsafe storage practices.

This would be a great paper to discuss if we actually had a Gun Control forum on this site. Unfortunately, we only have a Gun Worship forum here. Oh well.

Thanks for the article. Interesting stuff.
 
To me the right to keep and bear arms, the 2nd amendment, is more important to our country than saving a few lives...

Who's lives would be saved by this? People that want to kill themselves and gangsters for the most part..

Nope.. Our 2nd amendment is more important than their lives.
 
MrT said:
Your analogy to drugs implies that drug laws had zero impact on drug usage. That is inaccurate. Laws that reduce gun violence (or reduce drug misuse) are still valuable laws even if the laws do not eliminate the problem completely.

None of the laws proposed are contrary to the Constitutional right on gun ownership.
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Oh, but they are opposed to the Constitutional right of ownership. That is obvious and saying the opposite just robs you of your credibility.
 
MrT said:
I believe their study focused on the impact of these gun regulations on gun deaths - regardless of the impetus for the firing for the gun. And so, yes, I believe that the argument being made here is that these regulations could have an impact on gun deaths that were the result of a suicide attempt.

Now, whether those deaths might still crop up elsewhere as a death by overdose or hanging or whatever, that's not a focus of this study and while it might be relevant to an individual that wants to reduce all suicides, it is not particularly relevant to the discussion of whether these laws would reduce gun violence.
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Did it? I did not see that mentioned. I also did not see the experiment design. That was all hidden from the casual reader. But as you quoted the article, maybe you can explain?
 
I think more people have fought and lost there lives to preserve our right to keep and bear arms than are dying because of it..

The lives lost of those that sacrificed to make and keep us a free nation are more valuable lives than the suiciders and gangsters..
 
MrT said:
Argh, I am terribly sorry for the false advertising. I saw the "full text" tab and admittedly I did not try to read the entire article before publishing this thread (I'll blame the alcohol and 2:30 am posting).

As for the Forbes link, I believe you might want to check and see if you have adblocker disabled. Forbes is pretty notorious about giving you the run around unless you have it disabled. I am linking it here to try and help, but even when you go this page, it first thanks you for disabling adblocker, making you wait 3 seconds, and then permitting you to go to the website.
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Isn't an excuse unless it was a good whiskey, preferably Irish.
 
MrT said:
Argh, I am terribly sorry for the false advertising. I saw the "full text" tab and admittedly I did not try to read the entire article before publishing this thread (I'll blame the alcohol and 2:30 am posting).

As for the Forbes link, I believe you might want to check and see if you have adblocker disabled. Forbes is pretty notorious about giving you the run around unless you have it disabled. I am linking it here to try and help, but even when you go this page, it first thanks you for disabling adblocker, making you wait 3 seconds, and then permitting you to go to the website.
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Hi again. Looks like you’re still using an ad blocker. Please turn it off in order to continue into Forbes' ad-light experience.
 
Threegoofs said:
Oh, look. A rational scientfic paper on gun control.

I expect it to be widely trashed in the coming posts. We all know firearm deaths are a small price to pay for our freedom to get shot.

If you want to see the entire paper, its here: http://sci-hub.io/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(15)01026-0

The most interesting thing about the stats given is that of all the gun control measures put into place, the one that seems like it should reduce firearms deaths easily is actually correlated with a highly significant INCREASE in firearm death, and in fact, all the Child Access Prevention laws were negatively correlated. They postulate that that there is a tendency for states with firearms lock laws to be associated with higher rates of unsafe storage practices.

This would be a great paper to discuss if we actually had a Gun Control forum on this site. Unfortunately, we only have a Gun Worship forum here. Oh well.

Thanks for the article. Interesting stuff.
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I am always happy to see someone reveal his contempt for the Constitution so clearly, so everyone reading can see, and remember. Usually pseudo-liberals try to pretend they like this country and its institutions.

The Supreme Court made clear in McDonald what it had strongly suggested two years earlier in Heller: The individual right to keep and bear arms is fundamental.
 
Threegoofs said:
Oh, look. A rational scientfic paper on gun control.

I expect it to be widely trashed in the coming posts. We all know firearm deaths are a small price to pay for our freedom to get shot.

If you want to see the entire paper, its here: http://sci-hub.io/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(15)01026-0

The most interesting thing about the stats given is that of all the gun control measures put into place, the one that seems like it should reduce firearms deaths easily is actually correlated with a highly significant INCREASE in firearm death, and in fact, all the Child Access Prevention laws were negatively correlated. They postulate that that there is a tendency for states with firearms lock laws to be associated with higher rates of unsafe storage practices.

This would be a great paper to discuss if we actually had a Gun Control forum on this site. Unfortunately, we only have a Gun Worship forum here. Oh well.

Thanks for the article. Interesting stuff.
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It not a case of gun worship it is a case of truth and factual truth. Neither you nor anyone else can offer any evidence that shows gun control reducers crime, the supply of guns to criminals or increases public safety. You have seen the evidence against and it remains unrefuted. How then can any sane person want to have a serious discussion over a utter and complete lie? You have evidence that guns cause crime go ahead and present it to the world for evaluation and peer review. You may want to explain how while you are at it.

So yes few here are interested and discussing how good lies are.
 
matchlight said:
I am always happy to see someone reveal his contempt for the Constitution so clearly, so everyone reading can see, and remember. Usually pseudo-liberals try to pretend they like this country and its institutions.

The Supreme Court made clear in McDonald what it had strongly suggested two years earlier in Heller: The individual right to keep and bear arms is fundamental.
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Those laws are on the books right now, and apparently judged to be fully Constitutional.

But nice whining and gnashing of teeth. It was expected.
 
Crimefree said:
It not a case of gun worship it is a case of truth and factual truth. Neither you nor anyone else can offer any evidence that shows gun control reducers crime, the supply of guns to criminals or increases public safety. You have seen the evidence against and it remains unrefuted. How then can any sane person want to have a serious discussion over a utter and complete lie? You have evidence that guns cause crime go ahead and present it to the world for evaluation and peer review. You may want to explain how while you are at it.

So yes few here are interested and discussing how good lies are.
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Its been shown repeatedly. look to studies of the US compared to other nations with tight gun conttrol.

In fact, its so patently obvious to 90% of the people in the world that its laughable anyone could argue with it.
 
MrT said:
...according to a study published in The Lancet, one of the oldest and best known general medical journals. A link to the paper can be found here. It is not behind a pay wall. And I encourage you to read the article before giving into your natural urge of resistance and google searching for articles that will provide with reasons to dismiss the findings. I would also ask that you review the paper in order to try to get a handle on how the study was conducted. It is rather complex.

If you are looking for a discussion of the paper, you can find one at CNN, Ars Technica, and Forbes.

The researchers studied twenty five existing state laws related to gun violence and found that nine were associated with lower rates of gun-related deaths. The three laws which were associated with the biggest reductions were, in order, 1) Universal background checks (39%), 2) Ammunition background checks (18%), and 3) Laws designed to aim with firearm identification (16%).

The Researchers readily admit that such reductions would take many years lower in order to fully implement. And yet, that is a worthwhile goal. There were 31, 672 firearm deaths in 2010 in the USA. Reducing that number is a worthwhile goal.

And yes, I am bias. I know that I am bias. I am not interested in you telling me that I am bias or that I want to ban guns. If you dispute the findings of this study - tell me why. If you dispute the necessity of reducing gun violence - tell me why. If you have another proposal that you believe is reasonable - tell me why.
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I read about this either yesterday or the day before. Personally, I have nothing to hide. I do not have a criminal record, so if they want to implement instant background checks for ammo on top of background checks for firearms I'm for it. The goal should always be to save lives.
 
ThaiBoxer said:
Or the best way to end 90% of firearm deaths?

Ban guns
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You'll never ban guns or confiscate them. There are too many in circulation. I should not lose my firearms because of ill minded people.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Since most (up to 60%) of these gun deaths are suicides it is impossible for me to believe that BGCs, and especiially gun "tracking" laws, would have anywhere near the study's advertised (57%?) gun death reduction impact. The concept of BCG laws is that we know exactly who is more (most?) likely to commit a crime (other than suicide) with a gun (or ammo) so everyone must pay more for each and every gun/ammo purcahse so that we may continue to let these (convicted?) known to be dangerous folks roam freely among us.

If 57% of gun deaths are really due to those that would fail a (gun/ammo) BGC then why not just keep them locked up?
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In a way I agree. I think the only thing that may cut down suicide numbers with firearms is a waiting period. The CDC did some research into it and the New York Times published a article. Interesting read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html
 
I'm pretty skeptical that those three laws would have the effect advertised.
 
TaterTots said:
In a way I agree. I think the only thing that may cut down suicide numbers with firearms is a waiting period. The CDC did some research into it and the New York Times published a article. Interesting read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/upshot/gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicides.html
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It's not OK to commit suicide with a gun but it's perfectly OK if you do it any other way..... Then we will be able to crow about our victory and how many lives we have saved. It makes no difference if the conditions which create the desire to commit suicide continue that has nothing to do with us either. Never in the history of man have people been so willing to believe that removal of an object will rehabilitate criminals, prevent suicides and cure the insane.

I do so love such concerned bleeding hearts that have a wake of death following their gleeful cheers of we saved the world. They simply never look back at their handiwork. Gun free zones a perfect example. The place of choice of mass murderers to find the perfect target, our children, unprotected in gun control shooting galleries conveniently provided with live targets. Not one gun control advocate has looked back and seen the twisted bodies of the innocent children ripped apart, bleeding and dead while cops waited outside for it to be safe to enter. Instead of realising what they had done they skip in joy to the next tragedy they wish to exploit. The blood drips from their hands as lies issue from their mouth urging people to give up safety and embrace stupidity.

7 Firearms and Suicide | Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review | The National Academies Press

The risk of suicide is highest immediately after the purchase of a handgun, suggesting that some firearms are specifically purchased for the purpose of committing suicide.

Some gun control policies may reduce the number of gun suicides, but they have not yet been shown to reduce the overall risk of suicide in any population.
 
Threegoofs said:
Oh, look. A rational scientfic paper on gun control.

I expect it to be widely trashed in the coming posts. We all know firearm deaths are a small price to pay for our freedom to get shot.

If you want to see the entire paper, its here: http://sci-hub.io/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(15)01026-0

The most interesting thing about the stats given is that of all the gun control measures put into place, the one that seems like it should reduce firearms deaths easily is actually correlated with a highly significant INCREASE in firearm death, and in fact, all the Child Access Prevention laws were negatively correlated. They postulate that that there is a tendency for states with firearms lock laws to be associated with higher rates of unsafe storage practices.

This would be a great paper to discuss if we actually had a Gun Control forum on this site. Unfortunately, we only have a Gun Worship forum here. Oh well.

Thanks for the article. Interesting stuff.
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You are a badass! Thank you for posting this link.
 
Crimefree said:
Hi again. Looks like you’re still using an ad blocker. Please turn it off in order to continue into Forbes' ad-light experience.
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I have adblocker disabled on that website, but I guess I need to open it from a browser without ad-blocker? That is really bizarre. The best that I can think to do is post a link to the google search for that address and you can manually click on that link from there.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Since most (up to 60%) of these gun deaths are suicides it is impossible for me to believe that BGCs, and especiially gun "tracking" laws, would have anywhere near the study's advertised (57%?) gun death reduction impact. The concept of BCG laws is that we know exactly who is more (most?) likely to commit a crime (other than suicide) with a gun (or ammo) so everyone must pay more for each and every gun/ammo purcahse so that we may continue to let these (convicted?) known to be dangerous folks roam freely among us.

If 57% of gun deaths are really due to those that would fail a (gun/ammo) BGC then why not just keep them locked up?
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Because they have rights and an organisation that will set the world on fire if you try to take even a small bite of those rights. The rights owners appreciate those right and will stand up and be counted if that is what is needed.

Big difference to laying down and getting trodden on while organisations wring their hands and say nothing we can do. Just accept this we can still shoot.
 
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