• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

WHY School shootings may be increasing

TurtleDude

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
281,619
Reaction score
100,389
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
or at least perceived to be increasing

at a school outside of Cincinnati, some kid apparently shot a few classmates today-none fatally (so far) and was caught. all four local stations are having a mediagasm over this =pre-empting programming and have devoted at least an hour so far of nonstop coverage.

Now all of the injured students' parents were notified at least an hour ago. for sick losers, this sort of attention is priceless. I suspect if the media (especially something like this when no one was killed and the shooter is no longer on the loose) didn't give these incidents so much attention, it would be helpful.
 
But at the same time... You can't exactly sweep it under the rug either :shrug:

And as we know, the media is all about money, few things sell better than fear and just like a good horror film you have to tug at those string of fears by making people feel vulnerable, most adults in the US have been a parent and this stuff gets them to pay attention.
 
Just admit you wish more kids were shot = the gun lobby
 
TurtleDude said:
or at least perceived to be increasing

at a school outside of Cincinnati, some kid apparently shot a few classmates today-none fatally (so far) and was caught. all four local stations are having a mediagasm over this =pre-empting programming and have devoted at least an hour so far of nonstop coverage.

Now all of the injured students' parents were notified at least an hour ago. for sick losers, this sort of attention is priceless. I suspect if the media (especially something like this when no one was killed and the shooter is no longer on the loose) didn't give these incidents so much attention, it would be helpful.
Click to expand...

There's no doubt that the 24/7 news cycle, social media and dedicated news stations all make a difference.

Back in the day we had a half hour of local news followed by a half hour of national news. If you wanted notoriety you needed to do something pretty doggone spectacular.

I firmly believe that most of these school shootings are all about ego. The kid wants to get his name in the books. We can even see it where a lot of these kids have researched other such shootings and that all stems back to the wide dissemination of these stories.
 
TurtleDude said:
or at least perceived to be increasing

at a school outside of Cincinnati, some kid apparently shot a few classmates today-none fatally (so far) and was caught. all four local stations are having a mediagasm over this =pre-empting programming and have devoted at least an hour so far of nonstop coverage.

Now all of the injured students' parents were notified at least an hour ago. for sick losers, this sort of attention is priceless. I suspect if the media (especially something like this when no one was killed and the shooter is no longer on the loose) didn't give these incidents so much attention, it would be helpful.
Click to expand...



Nothing personal, but you watched that coverage right?

There have been times in my 25 year career when we had pictures that were in my opinion too gross for television. One was a body trapped inside a car, burning to death complete with silent screams. Another was a mass murder suicide, a man with back injuries lost it, killed his kids, his wife and his new born baby. The baby was still alive and we got a shot of a Mountie carrying the bloody infant body to hios cruiser and take off.

I lost the argument to broadcast either. Our ratings went up in both occasions.

Later, after protests, my superiors agree it should not have been broadcast, but noted the audience increase.

As long as we turn into ****ing ghouls over such tragedies 'the media' would be less prone to show it.

Let's face it, American news channels with put blood and crime ahead of anything. "If it bleeds it leads" is still the common denominator.

In closing, no media outlet ever went out of business reporting gore and it won't decrease until we not only tune out, but complain.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Nothing personal, but you watched that coverage right?

There have been times in my 25 year career when we had pictures that were in my opinion too gross for television. One was a body trapped inside a car, burning to death complete with silent screams. Another was a mass murder suicide, a man with back injuries lost it, killed his kids, his wife and his new born baby. The baby was still alive and we got a shot of a Mountie carrying the bloody infant body to hios cruiser and take off.

I lost the argument to broadcast either. Our ratings went up in both occasions.

Later, after protests, my superiors agree it should not have been broadcast, but noted the audience increase.

As long as we turn into ****ing ghouls over such tragedies 'the media' would be less prone to show it.

Let's face it, American news channels with put blood and crime ahead of anything. "If it bleeds it leads" is still the common denominator.

In closing, no media outlet ever went out of business reporting gore and it won't decrease until we not only tune out, but complain.
Click to expand...

no dead bodies-just a helicopter filming the school grounds and then interviews with the local sheriff, some students, and some teachers

turns out two students were hurt either from shrapnel from the rounds or diving on the floor to get away
 
TurtleDude said:
no dead bodies-just a helicopter filming the school grounds and then interviews with the local sheriff, some students, and some teachers

turns out two students were hurt either from shrapnel from the rounds or diving on the floor to get away
Click to expand...



You missed the entire point.

One, I no longer give a tinkler's damn about the details of any shooting in the US, there are simply too many of them. Now you respond with more ghoulish details. YOU are why there is 24/7 sensationalized coverage.
 
Fearandloathing said:
You missed the entire point.

One, I no longer give a tinkler's damn about the details of any shooting in the US, there are simply too many of them. Now you respond with more ghoulish details. YOU are why there is 24/7 sensationalized coverage.
Click to expand...


ghoulish details? are you kidding
 
Fearandloathing said:
You missed the entire point.

One, I no longer give a tinkler's damn about the details of any shooting in the US, there are simply too many of them. Now you respond with more ghoulish details. YOU are why there is 24/7 sensationalized coverage.
Click to expand...

That's a little harsh.

Rampage killers are a certain breed that have become totally self involved. I believe Borderline Personality Disorder is the term for where they are at mentally. What ends up happening in many cases is that these people feed off one another. They look at these incidents as "seeking justice" and model their behavior around the behavior of others they identify as similarly aggrieved. Simple human nature causes us to seek to understand this kind of highly unusual behavior so I really can't fault people for not tuning it out. I also can't really fault the media for broadcasting it. There IS a compelling story there.

Where I do start to take issue is that there is rarely significant followup to these stories. Sure, we get the whole "crazy kid, enabled by mommy, wrote a manifesto" stuff but then the stories turn to politics instead of understanding. We'll get the congressman pushing a gun ban and the parents of the victims talking about how horrible it all is but we NEVER get the in depth look at the mental issues which spurred the event. If we really believe that media can influence stuff like gun laws then why can't it also impact understanding of mental illness? Perhaps if some of the media went that direction instead of inflaming public outrage we'd become more focused on actually ferreting out some of these problem kids (and adults) and possibly stopping some of these things before they happen.
 
Lutherf said:
That's a little harsh.

Rampage killers are a certain breed that have become totally self involved. I believe Borderline Personality Disorder is the term for where they are at mentally. What ends up happening in many cases is that these people feed off one another. They look at these incidents as "seeking justice" and model their behavior around the behavior of others they identify as similarly aggrieved. Simple human nature causes us to seek to understand this kind of highly unusual behavior so I really can't fault people for not tuning it out. I also can't really fault the media for broadcasting it. There IS a compelling story there.

Where I do start to take issue is that there is rarely significant followup to these stories. Sure, we get the whole "crazy kid, enabled by mommy, wrote a manifesto" stuff but then the stories turn to politics instead of understanding. We'll get the congressman pushing a gun ban and the parents of the victims talking about how horrible it all is but we NEVER get the in depth look at the mental issues which spurred the event. If we really believe that media can influence stuff like gun laws then why can't it also impact understanding of mental illness? Perhaps if some of the media went that direction instead of inflaming public outrage we'd become more focused on actually ferreting out some of these problem kids (and adults) and possibly stopping some of these things before they happen.
Click to expand...



It may seem harsh, but look at this forum, or any other. You can't complain about round-the-clock news coverage when you're glued to the TV.


And you're second paragraph is exactly why I want no more part of it. It goes like this, some whacko will kill a bunch of people, someone will strike a thread in breaking news and posters follow every little detail.
By 20 posts, sometimes less, someone will call for a gun ban, and the whole argument with the same words starts all over again. I am familiar with borderline personality disorders, and suggest it is a mistake to rule all such killings BPD although I agree that is a large part and something I have been trying to get through to people for ten years.

The symptoms of BPD are very evident and show easily in front of a specialist. So how come they keep getting their hands on guns?

Each of these turns out the same, two sides arguing bitterly and nothing happens.
 
Fearandloathing said:
It may seem harsh, but look at this forum, or any other. You can't complain about round-the-clock news coverage when you're glued to the TV.


And you're second paragraph is exactly why I want no more part of it. It goes like this, some whacko will kill a bunch of people, someone will strike a thread in breaking news and posters follow every little detail.
By 20 posts, sometimes less, someone will call for a gun ban, and the whole argument with the same words starts all over again. I am familiar with borderline personality disorders, and suggest it is a mistake to rule all such killings BPD although I agree that is a large part and something I have been trying to get through to people for ten years.

The symptoms of BPD are very evident and show easily in front of a specialist. So how come they keep getting their hands on guns?

Each of these turns out the same, two sides arguing bitterly and nothing happens.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a tough call. Denying someone a fundamental right because they MIGHT do something is pretty much anathema to the American concept of individual liberty. If we ever get to the point where we start restricting rights based on probability we may as well pitch the Constitution. That being said, more awareness might get some people to seek help before things get out of hand.

Oddly enough, Justice Thomas made headlines today by asking questions during oral arguments for the first time in 10 years and this subject is precisely what he was was asking about. Funny the way that works some times. I'll have to throw my Synchronicity album on when I get home!
 
Fearandloathing said:
Nothing personal, but you watched that coverage right?

There have been times in my 25 year career when we had pictures that were in my opinion too gross for television. One was a body trapped inside a car, burning to death complete with silent screams. Another was a mass murder suicide, a man with back injuries lost it, killed his kids, his wife and his new born baby. The baby was still alive and we got a shot of a Mountie carrying the bloody infant body to hios cruiser and take off.

I lost the argument to broadcast either. Our ratings went up in both occasions.

Later, after protests, my superiors agree it should not have been broadcast, but noted the audience increase.

As long as we turn into ****ing ghouls over such tragedies 'the media' would be less prone to show it.

Let's face it, American news channels with put blood and crime ahead of anything. "If it bleeds it leads" is still the common denominator.

In closing, no media outlet ever went out of business reporting gore and it won't decrease until we not only tune out, but complain.
Click to expand...

This is as much about modern American culture as it is the media, just as our government is as well.
 
Lutherf said:
Where I do start to take issue is that there is rarely significant followup to these stories. Sure, we get the whole "crazy kid, enabled by mommy, wrote a manifesto" stuff but then the stories turn to politics instead of understanding. We'll get the congressman pushing a gun ban and the parents of the victims talking about how horrible it all is but we NEVER get the in depth look at the mental issues which spurred the event. If we really believe that media can influence stuff like gun laws then why can't it also impact understanding of mental illness? Perhaps if some of the media went that direction instead of inflaming public outrage we'd become more focused on actually ferreting out some of these problem kids (and adults) and possibly stopping some of these things before they happen.
Click to expand...

Sooner or later libertoons on the left and the right will just have to finally admit some people have to be restrained and institutionalizedbefore they inevitably do something horrendous, and mental patients should be forced to take their meds whether they want to or not. The NAMBLA logic mentality is as much at fault as anything, probably the major reason these incidents are increasing, though there is also the fact the U.S. has 120 million more people than it had in 1970 or so, too.


"NAMBLA" logic - an extreme absolutist position which demands that for logical consistencies sake that certain gross crimes be allowed, in order that no one might feel restrained.
Stirling S. Newberry
 
RetiredUSN said:
I have said it before in other posts, violence is the new normal.

The new America.
Click to expand...

It's been on a downward trend per capita; it's just that the 'per capita' has gone up some 30%-40%, and immigrated from violent countries as well. It's also noteworthy that the rate of gun crimes has gone down while gun ownership skyrocketed over the same time period as well.
 
Oberon said:
It's been on a downward trend per capita; it's just that the 'per capita' has gone up some 30%-40%, and immigrated from violent countries as well. It's also noteworthy that the rate of gun crimes has gone down while gun ownership skyrocketed over the same time period as well.
Click to expand...

What are the stats on youth violence?
 
Oberon said:
Sooner or later libertoons on the left and the right will just have to finally admit some people have to be restrained and institutionalizedbefore they inevitably do something horrendous, and mental patients should be forced to take their meds whether they want to or not. The NAMBLA logic mentality is as much at fault as anything, probably the major reason these incidents are increasing, though there is also the fact the U.S. has 120 million more people than it had in 1970 or so, too.


"NAMBLA" logic - an extreme absolutist position which demands that for logical consistencies sake that certain gross crimes be allowed, in order that no one might feel restrained.
Stirling S. Newberry
Click to expand...

I would suggest that allowing the principle of prior restraint to apply to public safety would set a precedent that all rights could then be subjected to the same infringement. Where we are now is that a person has to be adjudicated dangerous to themselves or others and that's not unreasonable because in that situation they have the opportunity to contest the determination.
 
TurtleDude said:
no dead bodies-just a helicopter filming the school grounds and then interviews with the local sheriff, some students, and some teachers

turns out two students were hurt either from shrapnel from the rounds or diving on the floor to get away
Click to expand...

But it's "news". Have you ever noticed how all weather is now referred to as a "storm" now? Every time it rains they call it a "storm". The news pumps the weather like it is always a world ending event. They need the viewers to sell toilet paper and hamburgers. They blow stuff out of proportion for the upcoming headlines.
 
From what I recalled, statistically these shootings are even if not on the decline. Awareness has skyrocketed, however.
 
Lutherf said:
That's a little harsh.

Rampage killers are a certain breed that have become totally self involved. I believe Borderline Personality Disorder is the term for where they are at mentally. What ends up happening in many cases is that these people feed off one another. They look at these incidents as "seeking justice" and model their behavior around the behavior of others they identify as similarly aggrieved. Simple human nature causes us to seek to understand this kind of highly unusual behavior so I really can't fault people for not tuning it out. I also can't really fault the media for broadcasting it. There IS a compelling story there.

Where I do start to take issue is that there is rarely significant followup to these stories. Sure, we get the whole "crazy kid, enabled by mommy, wrote a manifesto" stuff but then the stories turn to politics instead of understanding. We'll get the congressman pushing a gun ban and the parents of the victims talking about how horrible it all is but we NEVER get the in depth look at the mental issues which spurred the event. If we really believe that media can influence stuff like gun laws then why can't it also impact understanding of mental illness? Perhaps if some of the media went that direction instead of inflaming public outrage we'd become more focused on actually ferreting out some of these problem kids (and adults) and possibly stopping some of these things before they happen.
Click to expand...

We have in school interventions, but the issue is that they aren't necessarily a predictor for preventing at-risk students from going over the edge.

Personally, I'm tired of the mental health aspect of these shootings. Yes, It exists, but the coverage is completely disproportionate to all available empirical data. We account for 1/5 of the population, but we're treated like 4/5 of the world's scum. We are ten times more likely to be victims of an attack than we are to be the ones attacking. It's gotten to the point where when the public is presented with violent crime, it can't fathom how someone without mental illness did it--even though the vast majority is done by persons without mental illness.

The only time any legislators of note pay attention to mental illness is when an attack happens. Right now, perhaps only one or so bills currently in either chamber was not created with gun violence in mind. So naturally, instead of giving us the medical treatment infrastructure we need in our communities, they can only think of ways to curtail our civil liberties. But if I get diabetes, i at least know medical services are ready to go. Not so with mental health.

Yes the gun debate is absolutely tiring, but for Christ sake, enough is enough with the inaccurate fear mongering of mental illness.
 
RetiredUSN said:
I have said it before in other posts, violence is the new normal.

The new America.
Click to expand...

No. It really isn't. Most Americans don't understand violence. And general violent crime is going down. I mean think about your daily life. How many people do you meet that could hold their own in a fight?

I think feeling helpless is the new America. Feeling so worthless and trapped and unimportant that you want to explode.
 
TurtleDude said:
or at least perceived to be increasing

at a school outside of Cincinnati, some kid apparently shot a few classmates today-none fatally (so far) and was caught. all four local stations are having a mediagasm over this =pre-empting programming and have devoted at least an hour so far of nonstop coverage.

Now all of the injured students' parents were notified at least an hour ago. for sick losers, this sort of attention is priceless. I suspect if the media (especially something like this when no one was killed and the shooter is no longer on the loose) didn't give these incidents so much attention, it would be helpful.
Click to expand...

To some extent it would, but then again, it wouldn't quite have the desired impact either. On one hand, you would reduce the allure of copycatism and twisted prank threats, but on the other hand, you are also removing the reporting of fatal or potentially-fatal situations in a school building filled with children and teachers.
 
Fiddytree said:
We have in school interventions, but the issue is that they aren't necessarily a predictor for preventing at-risk students from going over the edge.

Personally, I'm tired of the mental health aspect of these shootings. Yes, It exists, but the coverage is completely disproportionate to all available empirical data. We account for 1/5 of the population, but we're treated like 4/5 of the world's scum. We are ten times more likely to be victims of an attack than we are to be the ones attacking. It's gotten to the point where when the public is presented with violent crime, it can't fathom how someone without mental illness did it--even though the vast majority is done by persons without mental illness.

The only time any legislators of note pay attention to mental illness is when an attack happens. Right now, perhaps only one or so bills currently in either chamber was not created with gun violence in mind. So naturally, instead of giving us the medical treatment infrastructure we need in our communities, they can only think of ways to curtail our civil liberties. But if I get diabetes, i at least know medical services are ready to go. Not so with mental health.

Yes the gun debate is absolutely tiring, but for Christ sake, enough is enough with the inaccurate fear mongering of mental illness.
Click to expand...

I understand where you're coming from but my replies are strictly directed at the OP which identifies "school shootings".

School shootings are a tiny fraction of the gun violence we see but in those cases the VAST majority of incidents are perpetrated by mentally ill individuals.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe that well over 90% of the shootings we see are self inflicted, gang related or tied to momentary fits of rage. Those shooters, however, are not in the same category as the "rampage shooter".
 
Lutherf said:
I understand where you're coming from but my replies are strictly directed at the OP which identifies "school shootings".

School shootings are a tiny fraction of the gun violence we see but in those cases the VAST majority of incidents are perpetrated by mentally ill individuals.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe that well over 90% of the shootings we see are self inflicted, gang related or tied to momentary fits of rage. Those shooters, however, are not in the same category as the "rampage shooter".
Click to expand...

Absolutely, but the thing is that I continually push people to ask the next several questions, because most folks get stuck, depending on their political sympathies.

For instance:

Trail 1: Gun violence---> Horrifying reaction---> Anger---->Gun control-->Aware of pro-gun lobby's talking points--->Reiterate gun control......stop thought process
Trail 2: Gun violence--->Horrifying reaction----> Anger---->Aware of gun control lobby's talking points---->Reiterate points against gun control--->Point to mentally ill people instead--->Stop thought processes

The truth is that while we have a much greater understanding of how these shootings are planned, executed, and how it creates residual effects for years afterward, we still know far less than we we would like to know. There's plenty of research and case studies on these situations, but the media and the public at large are stuck and don't want to go there. They are cognitively 'jammed' from moving beyond the petty and potentially vindictive politics. There's no massive intention to discuss what we do know and what we don't know. All we get are the above thought processes.
 
Fiddytree said:
Absolutely, but the thing is that I continually push people to ask the next several questions, because most folks get stuck, depending on their political sympathies.

For instance:

Trail 1: Gun violence---> Horrifying reaction---> Anger---->Gun control-->Aware of pro-gun lobby's talking points--->Reiterate gun control......stop thought process
Trail 2: Gun violence--->Horrifying reaction----> Anger---->Aware of gun control lobby's talking points---->Reiterate points against gun control--->Point to mentally ill people instead--->Stop thought processes

The truth is that while we have a much greater understanding of how these shootings are planned, executed, and how it creates residual effects for years afterward, we still know far less than we we would like to know. There's plenty of research and case studies on these situations, but the media and the public at large are stuck and don't want to go there. They are cognitively 'jammed' from moving beyond the petty and potentially vindictive politics. There's no massive intention to discuss what we do know and what we don't know. All we get are the above thought processes.
Click to expand...

I think that discussion is right where TD wanted this thread to go.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom