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Pro-Gun Advocates aren't actually Anti-Gun Control, they're just Anti-Government

Hmmm, if you say that "the militia clause only really serves to justify the right to bear arms", wouldn't you be worried the anti gun people would counter with...

At that time a militia was the police force and an extension to the army. We now have the police and army to do all our protectin against, local, national or foreign threats. Therefore, there goes your reason for civilians to bear arms.

Or a future gov could decree that there shall be no militias, and therefore your right to bear arms?

I've heard these kind of things from the left online before you see

Well if the gov one day became retarded and completely disbanded the military, the national guard, and revoked the militia act which states that every male in the US between 18 and something in the 40s is part of the militia, then I guess our right to bear arms would be kind of null.

But then again, the USA would be 100% vulnerable...

Also, at that time, the militia was you and I so to speak, and it still is that way even to this day.
 
one thing which should ALWAYS BE REMEMBERED, the 2nd amendment as well and the others are RESTRICTIONS on the powers of the federal government to make NO laws concerning what is recognized by the bill of rights.

the bill of rights does not grant any rights to the people, but only recognizes rights which comes from everyones own humanity.
 
Hmmm, if you say that "the militia clause only really serves to justify the right to bear arms", wouldn't you be worried the anti gun people would counter with...

At that time a militia was the police force and an extension to the army. We now have the police and army to do all our protectin against, local, national or foreign threats. Therefore, there goes your reason for civilians to bear arms.

Or a future gov could decree that there shall be no militias, and therefore your right to bear arms?

I've heard these kind of things from the left online before you see

 
What now...are the gun grabbers trying to take away my short sleeved shirts now too?

Bare arms is not guaranteed in the Constitution, so I guess they are going to try it?

...you're hilarious.

So are you going to answer my question like an adult?
 
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Don't worry, if you've watched it then it wasn't a waste.

I wasn't trying to argue for or against gun control. I just wanted to show a layer to peoples thinking which I believe is being missed

So, what do you think about the numbers which seemed bipartisan support for some gun control measures?

Say if you could somehow waive a wand and just make criminals not being able to have guns by doing universal background checks, and law abiding citizens are guaranteed to never have their guns taken away? Would you do it?

I have now watched the video (was on my phone earlier) and, frankly, my conclusion hasn't changed too much.

What you seem to have done is analyze a group of polls instead of actually address the gun control issue. It's understandable that you would have come at the matter from that direction because for many people not directly impacted by the issue it becomes an academic exercise. That applies to both sides of the argument because there definitely are those who support gun rights solely from an academic standpoint.

Let me try to break a few things down for you regarding lawful gun owners:

1. There are definitely people in America who own guns primarily because they feel that the right may, at some point, be restricted to an extent where that opportunity may no longer exist for them. My mother falls into that category. Her concern, like that of many others, is that if they don't exercise their right now they may lose that right in the future.

2. There are people who own guns because they want to be part of a particular movement. For these people owning a gun is kind of like buying membership to a certain club. While a small percentage of these people remain at that emotional stopping point most either become like the first category after the novelty wears off or move into one of the next categories.

3. There are a great number of gun owners (My personal experience tells me this is the "most" category) who believe that keeping and bearing arms is a necessary or at least prudent aspect of self defense. Many in this group are veterans, have law enforcement background or have otherwise been engaged in public safety endeavors. These are the ones (like me) who only pay attention to polls as a measure of what the politicians are planning next.

4. There are the shooting sports enthusiasts. Some of these are primarily interested in taking down a trophy elk and others are determined to hit the X ring 5 for 5 at 900 yards.

Generally speaking, the folks in the first and second categories will be more open to "minor" restrictions as their interests are more academic. They have considered their own circumstances and feel strongly about the right to keep and bear arms but are not heavily invested in the concept. Those in the third and fourth categories are generally a lot less inclined to accept ANY infringement on the right. For this category the right is tied directly to practical, every day purposes. For us you may as well suggest restricting the use and possession of kitchen utensils because restricting guns would be equally absurd.
 
I have now watched the video (was on my phone earlier) and, frankly, my conclusion hasn't changed too much.

What you seem to have done is analyze a group of polls instead of actually address the gun control issue. It's understandable that you would have come at the matter from that direction because for many people not directly impacted by the issue it becomes an academic exercise. That applies to both sides of the argument because there definitely are those who support gun rights solely from an academic standpoint.

Let me try to break a few things down for you regarding lawful gun owners:

1. There are definitely people in America who own guns primarily because they feel that the right may, at some point, be restricted to an extent where that opportunity may no longer exist for them. My mother falls into that category. Her concern, like that of many others, is that if they don't exercise their right now they may lose that right in the future.

2. There are people who own guns because they want to be part of a particular movement. For these people owning a gun is kind of like buying membership to a certain club. While a small percentage of these people remain at that emotional stopping point most either become like the first category after the novelty wears off or move into one of the next categories.

3. There are a great number of gun owners (My personal experience tells me this is the "most" category) who believe that keeping and bearing arms is a necessary or at least prudent aspect of self defense. Many in this group are veterans, have law enforcement background or have otherwise been engaged in public safety endeavors. These are the ones (like me) who only pay attention to polls as a measure of what the politicians are planning next.

4. There are the shooting sports enthusiasts. Some of these are primarily interested in taking down a trophy elk and others are determined to hit the X ring 5 for 5 at 900 yards.

Generally speaking, the folks in the first and second categories will be more open to "minor" restrictions as their interests are more academic. They have considered their own circumstances and feel strongly about the right to keep and bear arms but are not heavily invested in the concept. Those in the third and fourth categories are generally a lot less inclined to accept ANY infringement on the right. For this category the right is tied directly to practical, every day purposes. For us you may as well suggest restricting the use and possession of kitchen utensils because restricting guns would be equally absurd.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

True I wasn't aiming to argue one side or the other about the gun control issue, however, I do have strong opinions about it.

Your 1st bullet point: I was always curious about this. If they think the government will one day ban guns. What do they think even buying them would do if they will only get taken away in the end? In addition, the US politicians (who want gun control) are always bagging on about how they only want to limit guns in respect to universal background checks, the mentally ill, and people on the terrorist watch list. It seems to me that only pro gun politicians, tv shows and interest groups who even talk about guns being taken away. Is there even a person in office today with any power, who is on record as believing that? I think the US repealing the 2nd amendment seems as likely as the UK fully privatizing the NHS. So when people start buying loads of guns because they think they might not be able to soon, I think it's because they have either bought the pro-gun advocates messages (despite reality) or they would fail a background check, are mentally ill or are on the watch list.

2nd: I don't think I can understand these kind of people I'm afraid.

3rd: I think these people but have little knowledge of other countries and/or are very paranoid. Little knowledge because clearly guns aren't necessary in many countries. Paranoid because the average person is extremely unlikely to need it. If this actually was the case, wouldn't their be more people who favour guns where crime mostly happens, in cities?

4th: Completely pointless. Sorry if that offends anyone. I kind of thing of it like clay pigeon shooting in the UK, I just see no value in being good at it. Although I do enjoy paintballing, I wouldn't fight to keep it.

What do think of what I said, unfortunately I know it will be very unpleasant to some on here, again I do apologies if I offend
 
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

True I wasn't aiming to argue one side or the other about the gun control issue, however, I do have strong opinions about it.

Your 1st bullet point: I was always curious about this. If they think the government will one day ban guns. What do they think even buying them would do if they will only get taken away in the end? In addition, the US politicians (who want gun control) are always bagging on about how they only want to limit guns in respect to universal background checks, the mentally ill, and people on the terrorist watch list. It seems to me that only pro gun politicians, tv shows and interest groups who even talk about guns being taken away. Is there even a person in office today with any power, who is on record as believing that? I think the US repealing the 2nd amendment seems as likely as the UK fully privatizing the NHS. So when people start buying loads of guns because they think they might not be able to soon, I think it's because they have either bought the pro-gun advocates messages (despite reality) or they would fail a background check, are mentally ill or are on the watch list.

2nd: I don't think I can understand these kind of people I'm afraid.

3rd: I think these people but have little knowledge of other countries and/or are very paranoid. Little knowledge because clearly guns aren't necessary in many countries. Paranoid because the average person is extremely unlikely to need it. If this actually was the case, wouldn't their be more people who favour guns where crime mostly happens, in cities?

4th: Completely pointless. Sorry if that offends anyone. I kind of thing of it like clay pigeon shooting in the UK, I just see no value in being good at it. Although I do enjoy paintballing, I wouldn't fight to keep it.

What do think of what I said, unfortunately I know it will be very unpleasant to some on here, again I do apologies if I offend

The "gun control" folks always like to say that they have no intention of banning guns but laws to that effect keep getting presented. For example, the NY SAFE Act outlaws various firearms and magazines. If you are found with one you are charged criminally and the firearm is confiscated. That is ABSOLUTELY a ban and has the intent of disarming the citizenry through attrition. Those who are modestly or moderately invested in gun ownership tend to be less concerned about such infringements because they rarely have their firearms outside their home.

With regard to the mentally ill, that type of enforcement really needs to happen at the individual level, not the state or federal level. The reason it needs to be handled at such a close level is purely practical. You simply can not know that one day someone is going to pop their cork and decide to shoot a co-worker or a loved one. There may be indications that such behavior is imminent but those indications are going to first be recognized by those most closely involved with the mental patient. Our current guidelines for determining that someone is a "prohibited person" for mental health reasons are necessarily limited and expanding those limits would subject lots and lots of people to unnecessary, coercive or adversarial restriction.

With regard to the terror watch list, one of the other core principles this nation was founded on was the right to be considered innocent until there is reasonable proof that such consideration is unwarranted. The terror watch list and any restrictions based on that list are directly contrary to a fundamental commitment to individual liberty.

The folks in category #2...well, those folks are out there in droves. They tend to be swayed by public opinion and frequently attach themselves to various causes. They also tend to be rather fickle and when the cause no longer provides the attention or attraction they hoped it would they move on to something else.

If you think the folks in the third category are paranoid then you will never find yourself in that category. The sense that one has a duty to protect themselves, their family and their community doesn't manifest itself in everyone. The sheep don't have to understand the sheepdog and don't even have to like him when he nips at them. All they need to know is to run the other way when the sheepdog goes after a wolf.

Finally, with regard to #4, just because you don't see the point in it doesn't mean that it's pointless. I don't see the point in jumping out of perfectly good airplanes with a parachute but I definitely believe that people should have the right to do so.
 
Of course there is an anti-government angle to this. Since those the advocate gun control and a government that is pro gun control is trying to erode a right.
 
So in that case do you consider only firearms as "arms"? And if so why?

No, I consider other personal defense weapons-- such as knives, martial arts weapons, and pepper sprays-- to be arms as well.

In addition, why would you believe that it's acceptable for civilians to be able to have standard issue rifles and not other military weapons?

Standard service rifles are necessary to uphold civilians' roles as the militia. Other military weapons are more sp

And finally, what are your opinions on legislation on limiting certain people having guns, like the mentally ill or people on the watch list?

If a person is currently in supervised custody, such as in prison or in a mental hospital, they should not be allowed to have their guns with them. If a person is not currently in supervised custody, such as ex-convicts and mentally ill persons in outpatient treatment only, they should be allowed to carry their weapons. The idea that someone can have their human rights trampled without due process simply by being added to a government watch list is anathema.
 
Yes, I don't think many people would argue for being able to use a minigun or something.

However, one thing I wonder is how do pro-gun advocates draw a line with the second amendment and (putting aside the militia element) its right to bare arms?

The Second Amendment has nothing to do with bare arms. :rolleyes:
 
Hmmm, if you say that "the militia clause only really serves to justify the right to bear arms", wouldn't you be worried the anti gun people would counter with...

At that time a militia was the police force and an extension to the army. We now have the police and army to do all our protectin against, local, national or foreign threats. Therefore, there goes your reason for civilians to bear arms.

Or a future gov could decree that there shall be no militias, and therefore your right to bear arms?

I've heard these kind of things from the left online before you see

Have you ever even read the bloody thing? It clearly states the right of the PEOPLE. Not, the right of the militia. It also doesn't state, "in future, if there exists a civilian police force, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be abrogated". C'mon mate, give us a break already.
 
Have you ever even read the bloody thing? It clearly states the right of the PEOPLE. Not, the right of the militia. It also doesn't state, "in future, if there exists a civilian police force, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be abrogated". C'mon mate, give us a break already.

...hey, I was only raising an issue with what HE said about the militia, because it seemed that HE was using that to justify the right to bear arms. I have read the thing, and even though I don't support gun rights, even I thought that using the militia as the reason gun rights get to exist wasn't a good defense. So I gave some arguments which I know some people would use against HIS point. I know full well that it's mostly taking about the people, and its that fact people have the their rights for guns. I also know that it does not say...

"in future, if there exists a civilian police force, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be abrogated"

..as I can read. :roll:

If I was to go at the gun issue, I'd go at it by pointing to all the deaths caused by them compared to other countries, say that guns aren't necessary for civilians and point to all the countries where people are happy without them and end with the Constitution should be changed in order to get rid of gun rights, instead of trying to pass laws which try and tap dance round the Constitution. That, in extreme summary, would be my attack against gun rights.

You moaning about someone elses militia point isn't my problem, so get off my a*** about it....and argue with me about MY issues with guns
 
...hey, I was only raising an issue with what HE said about the militia, because it seemed that HE was using that to justify the right to bear arms. I have read the thing, and even though I don't support gun rights, even I thought that using the militia as the reason gun rights get to exist wasn't a good defense. So I gave some arguments which I know some people would use against HIS point. I know full well that it's mostly taking about the people, and its that fact people have the their rights for guns. I also know that it does not say...



..as I can read. :roll:

Yes but can you cogitate and comprehend? Let's test that ability.

If I was to go at the gun issue, I'd go at it by pointing to all the deaths caused by them compared to other countries, say that guns aren't necessary for civilians and point to all the countries where people are happy without them and end with the Constitution should be changed in order to get rid of gun rights, instead of trying to pass laws which try and tap dance round the Constitution. That, in extreme summary, would be my attack against gun rights.

You moaning about someone elses militia point isn't my problem, so get off my a*** about it....and argue with me about MY issues with guns

Okey dokey will do.

You are using an OBVIOUS FALSITY to prove your point. Neither you or anyone else has the faintest wife of evidence that can show guns cause anything unless you are speaking of the fear they cause in gun control advocates. An inanimate object such as guns is incapable as far as we know of inducing anyone to commit a crime unless you are a gun control advocate.

As we can see gun control advocates are delusional and believe in the impossible happening. They fear this happening so much they want to remove all guns in civilian hands and will do so no matter how many have to die to achieve it.

Your argument of people being happy is not valid. The Catholics were happy to burn heretics at the stake for 700 years. Need I go on?
 
The "gun control" folks always like to say that they have no intention of banning guns but laws to that effect keep getting presented. For example, the NY SAFE Act outlaws various firearms and magazines. If you are found with one you are charged criminally and the firearm is confiscated. That is ABSOLUTELY a ban and has the intent of disarming the citizenry through attrition. Those who are modestly or moderately invested in gun ownership tend to be less concerned about such infringements because they rarely have their firearms outside their home.

With regard to the mentally ill, that type of enforcement really needs to happen at the individual level, not the state or federal level. The reason it needs to be handled at such a close level is purely practical. You simply can not know that one day someone is going to pop their cork and decide to shoot a co-worker or a loved one. There may be indications that such behavior is imminent but those indications are going to first be recognized by those most closely involved with the mental patient. Our current guidelines for determining that someone is a "prohibited person" for mental health reasons are necessarily limited and expanding those limits would subject lots and lots of people to unnecessary, coercive or adversarial restriction.

With regard to the terror watch list, one of the other core principles this nation was founded on was the right to be considered innocent until there is reasonable proof that such consideration is unwarranted. The terror watch list and any restrictions based on that list are directly contrary to a fundamental commitment to individual liberty.

The folks in category #2...well, those folks are out there in droves. They tend to be swayed by public opinion and frequently attach themselves to various causes. They also tend to be rather fickle and when the cause no longer provides the attention or attraction they hoped it would they move on to something else.

If you think the folks in the third category are paranoid then you will never find yourself in that category. The sense that one has a duty to protect themselves, their family and their community doesn't manifest itself in everyone. The sheep don't have to understand the sheepdog and don't even have to like him when he nips at them. All they need to know is to run the other way when the sheepdog goes after a wolf.

Finally, with regard to #4, just because you don't see the point in it doesn't mean that it's pointless. I don't see the point in jumping out of perfectly good airplanes with a parachute but I definitely believe that people should have the right to do so.

You make some solid well rounded points I think, so I'll address those ones first.

Although I think most people would agree that terror suspects shouldn't be allowed guns, your point about how the current terror watch list is a good one.

The way someone can appear on that list is far to simple as the same level of scrutiny isn't given before putting someone on that list as you would for obtaining a warrant for an arrest. Therefore, if a there was a ban on people on the watch list, I think it would be infringing on that persons rights, even if they are actually a terrorist. The solution in my eyes would be to make adding of anyone to the terror watch list would need to have the same standard of a warrant. How they would do that I don't know, however, if it could be done, do you think a ban for people on this new terror watch list be acceptable?

Just as I believe that you wouldn't want terror suspects/terrorists to have guns, I think you also wouldn't want the mentally ill to have guns as well. However, I believe (and do correct me if I'm wrong) you don't agree with any current methods that would ban these people because of the constitutionality of these methods. However, I believe the issue with the mentally ill is where we'll begin to have disagreements, because I think you believe it should be up to the individual plus family and friends to deal with a mentally ill person.

Although, firstly, I will say that I understand why from not only a constitutional stand point but also a practical stand point too, you believe that the individual plus family and friends and not the state should get involved. It would be because, to be able to get accurate insight into an individual and properly understand their mental health, could and would requires very invasive access to a person. That level of insight into any individual would usually only be gained by the person themselves or their friends and family. If the government attempted this, especially without that individuals consent, it would violate all sorts of constitutional rights, and in all honesty, I don't think I can argue against that fact.


part 1 of 3...
 
However, I believe that an agreement and possibly solution can be reached, abet, with some difficulty. Like you said, the current guidelines for accessing someones mental health is currently limited, and it's probably because of privacy rights issues this is the case. Although, I would like to take the UK mental health system and it's process for determining a mentally ill person as an example which the US system could benefit from. In the UK we have various stages of assessment for a potentially mentally ill person, and due to the Human Rights Act, we do not simply determine someone is mentally ill and start restricting them, unless there is an immediate issue, such as being suicidal. Please see here, for these various stages. In addition, there are a number of processes a person can go through even before the first stage (section 2). These would involve a visit to the local GP (General Practitioner), then on referral by the GP (if they believe there could be an issue) a visit to a psychiatrist. At that point you may just be given advice, given a prescription of a drug (anti depressants etc) or just sent to a psychologist if they believe it would solve the problem. However, if they believe it requires more attention, they would recommend a prelim mental health assessment. This could result in regular home visits by psychologist and/or social workers which then check the persons well being, give advice and (if recommended by the psychiatrist) make sure medication is been taken. If the persons does have a more serious issue or is at risk to themselves or others, or refuses to be seen by the psychologist and/or social workers they may be Sectioned usually under section 2 or 3.

I'm not someone who works for the NHS nor an expert in the field so there are probably more that can happen in between so please don't take what I've send as fact. However, I am talking through experience as I have two sisters who went through this process.

Now I'm not saying that our system is perfect, many people have issues with it, as have I. Often medication is too readily prescribed as they are cheaper for the NHS than psychologist, so as a result they are being used less and less. The medication often has side affects. I won't list them all because they are too many type, but one of my sisters became massively over weight as a result of the medication, she now is at risk of diabetes. So again, I don't think the system is perfect, but I think it does save many lives and is all free for the person involved. In fact it does more because, I even remember my mum being reimbursed for the travel when they were first being assessed. She then received financial support via disability allowance through one of my sisters condition until she eventually left home.

Where I believe the US can use this system is by having friends or family begin the process for the individual, by getting them to at least see a doctor, then psychologist and so on. Where I would begin limiting a mentally ill persons right to bear arms would be if the get to section 2 or 3. It doesn't mean that they always have to be restricted, when the person is better again, their rights can be restored. But surely, people can agree that, if a mental health professional believes someone is mentally ill and needs to be kept for their own or others safety, PERHAPS it would be a good idea at THAT point to limit that persons use and procession of fire arms.

I believe that even if nothing else is done about guns in the US, many, many American lives can be saved if something like the above was implemented.

Anyway, I hope you can tell where I'm coming from with this, I don't want people to get the impression that I just want guns taken away simply because of my personal negative opinions of them. I honestly believe that, if the US insists in having guns, there are solutions which will make everyone more safe, without limiting law abiding and mentally well citizens.

part 2 of 3....
 
Someone said to me on this thread that, if I had been robbed or raped, I would soon change my view of peoples right to bear arms. Although, I do understand why a person would change their view, I don't believe that they are seeing the bigger picture and they are now just focusing on their own experience then adopting that view. And yes, although I it is probably a bit insensitive to say these people are paranoid, if you just look at the numbers they are. Similarly I think people who are afraid of flying people they think the plane would crash, a person thinking guns are necessary against guns again criminals and terrorists (although they would be at those times), it would be extremely unlikely to ever be in that kind of situation. Being called a "sheep" for this kind of thinking I think is a bit much. I don't believe that by simply having a gun you become a "sheepdog" nor do I think simply by buying a gun someone should be a "sheepdog". For the kind of issues that Pro Gun people believe guns are necessary for, we have the police and other law enforcement officials, they are the "sheepdogs" and if someone wants that role they should apply to the police. There are some people who we don't want and shouldn't be "sheepdogs" as they'll only bite the "sheep", and there are people who shouldn't take that role for other reasons.

We always tell people that they shouldn't try and put out a house fire, they should leave it to the professionals. Sure defending yourself if the risk is small makes sense. Of course, I wouldn't just watch a small flame on my carpet, or on my cooker burn my house down. I also wouldn't just let a robber mug me or allow a person make continued advances on my girlfriend, I'm not a pacifist. However, like a fire out of my control, I wouldn't want to try and deal with these things myself if they were out of my control, probably end more hurt or worse on top of the bad thing which is happening. Even if you have a gun please consider that if you lived in a country where guns are easily accessible, sure you could defend yourself if any of the previous happened, but the attackers themselves would also have the access to guns as well. So all that has happened is the raising of the stakes and an up of the ante. People are more likely to die now on both sides, but in fact regardless of how great you are with a gun, if the attacker has the element of surprise and no remorse, even a less competent shooter will a win out. If you removed guns from the equation, at least death is less likely.

And lastly, I'm actually going to reverse my position on not fighting against a ban on paintballing. You're right, you should be able to have the right to do something, even if it seems pointless, and if the government did ban parachuting, paintballing or even clay pigeon shooting, I would defend them. However, my concern is that the right to bear arms has serious consequences that less mundane rights don't, which is the death of thousands of Americans every year. If any of those activates caused anywhere near the same issues, you'd want to restrict or at least regulate it more wouldn't you? Like cigarettes, alcohol and cars, they all kill similar numbers, but we at least put more restrictions and regulations on them so that their affects are less dangerous for us all.

Perhaps a compromise would work? Pretending for a moment that it is us who had the power. We'll guarantee that we won't ever try to enforce any blanket NY Safe Act-like laws, if you at least let us enact some regulations which will make guns more safe for everyone. Similar to the sort of regulations enforce speed limits for cars and age limits on drinks, and temporally suspend their ability to use them when people commit crimes, but don't move to ban those things. So the kinds of regulations would be:

Background checks for all gun sales, with 7 day waiting period
Registration of all guns (like cars)
18 year old age limit on owning or using a firearm
Require a firearm license to use firearms which require a theory and practical test, redo these tests every 20 years
A criminal offense committed with a firearm will result in losing license during an probation period given, unless job is affected by such measure
Make it an offense to use a firearm whiles under the influence of certain drugs including alcohol
A limit on the physical possession of the number of ammo held by a persons. To clarify - there is no limit to how much ammo which can be owned, just physically carrying on ones person.

What do you think? ^^

This took me quite a while to write this, but I think your responses are worth time. Whiles thinking about what to write as a response to your comments, I believe I've come to understand my own positions as well as the thoughts of pro gun advocates...or at least one. In addition, you've inspired me, to make a video on mental health care, the mentally ill and gun rights, because I think there is a lot to talk about the

part 3 of 3
 
So in that case do you consider only firearms as "arms"? And if so why?

In addition, why would you believe that it's acceptable for civilians to be able to have standard issue rifles and not other military weapons?

And finally, what are your opinions on legislation on limiting certain people having guns, like the mentally ill or people on the watch list?

You really are trying to pack 10 pounds in a five pound bag with this thread.

I will address the points you make here but you need to limit your scope. The issues can get complicated and would take more than one thread to cover.
Mentally ill people aren't legally permitted to posses firearms. This is from the BATF Form 4473 that a person has to fill out before they purchase a firearm.
Mentally Defective 4473 Question.jpg

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to give the people the power to change the government if it becomes a tyranny. If one is to fight with the government they would have to equip themselves with weapons comparable to the government. This is what makes the "assault weapons ban" so offensive to the Constitution.

The Constitution gives us the right to "keep and bear arms". A person can't bear a cannon or a nuclear weapon. It would seem ludicrous that I even have to use the "nuclear weapon" example except we get that question all the time.

No Fly lists.... That is one of those propositions that sounds good until one looks at the Constitution and the realities of how a person can find themselves on the no fly list. The government won't release the reasons that a person is put on the no fly list. A person doesn't know they are on the no fly list until they try to fly. The Constitution says that we will get "due process". A judge will hear a case and rule on it. The person gets a chance to rebut it. That isn't the case with the no fly list. A person would just lose a Constitutional right because of a web site they looked at or some anonymous tip to the Department of Homeland Security. That would rob the person of due process and their right to keep and bear arms.
 
If it is as simple as writing someones name down on a list, that doesn't seem fair. I thought it would be something which would involve investigation like getting a warrant before searching someones home.

Here's a question, what about preventing people on the most wanted list? Or is that as arbitrary as the Terrorist watch list?

It is an arbitrary list. This is just a primer for the article. You should read the whole article.
7 Ways That You (Yes, You) Could End Up On A Terrorist Watch List
Earlier this week, The Intercept published a 166-page document outlining the government's guidelines for placing people on an expansive network of terror watch lists, including the no-fly list. In their report, Jeremy Scahill and Ryan Devereaux highlighted the extremely vague and loosely defined criteria developed by 19 federal agencies, supposedly to fight terrorism.

Using these criteria, government officials have secretly characterized an unknown number of individuals as threats or potential threats to national security. In 2013 alone, 468,749 watch-list nominations were submitted to the National Counterterrorism Center. It rejected only 1 percent of the recommendations.

Critics say the system is bloated and imprecise, needlessly sweeping up thousands of people while simultaneously failing to catch legitimate threats, like Boston Marathon bomber Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
 
Hmmm, if you say that "the militia clause only really serves to justify the right to bear arms", wouldn't you be worried the anti gun people would counter with...

At that time a militia was the police force and an extension to the army. We now have the police and army to do all our protectin against, local, national or foreign threats. Therefore, there goes your reason for civilians to bear arms.

Or a future gov could decree that there shall be no militias, and therefore your right to bear arms?

I've heard these kind of things from the left online before you see

Militia:
“Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” This was written by George Mason.
The English used militias in this sense before 1066. This type of militia was referred to as the “fyrd”. Colonial militias required that every able bodied male over 17 was required to be a member of the local militia. The militia would be commanded by a few officers that were usually local citizens that were appointed by the local government leaders or militia.
To understand the 2nd amendment one needs to look at the intent/purpose of the amendment when it was added to the constitution and the debate surrounding it when it was written and adopted. It was debated in the Ratification Debates.
There was debate on how much power that army should have compared to the citizens. The army would be to prevent insurrection and protect the country. England and other European countries had tried to disarm their citizens in order to further tyranny. America was the one of a few countries that had no such restrictions. The solution to this was to allow the citizens to “keep and bear arms”.
From Cornell (SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER):
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Anti-federalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

James Madison and James Mason were anti-federalists that wrote on the purpose of the 2nd amendment.



Declaration of Independence talks about the power of the citizens against tyranny:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

From Cornell (SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER):

“keep and bear arms”:
Keep is the right to own arms.
Bear is the right to carry arms.

Good paper on the 2nd amendment. A Primer on the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms
 
...“James Madison and James Mason were anti-federalists that wrote on the purpose of the 2nd amendment.


Actually, James Madison was a Federalist.


And....James Mason was an English actor. lol


Perhaps you meant George Mason who was an anti-federalist.
 
Actually, James Madison was a Federalist.


And....James Mason was an English actor. lol


Perhaps you meant George Mason who was an anti-federalist.

Yeah, I mentioned George at the beginning of the post and got a little screwed around at the end.
 
I believe that it is scepticism of the government and their actions, that make people Anti-Gun Control,

:2wave: Are you aware of why the Founding Fathers included the 2nd Amendment?

It kind of makes your OP 'conclusion' uber-obvious.
 
Background checks for all gun sales, with 7 day waiting period
Registration of all guns (like cars)
18 year old age limit on owning or using a firearm
Require a firearm license to use firearms which require a theory and practical test, redo these tests every 20 years
A criminal offense committed with a firearm will result in losing license during an probation period given, unless job is affected by such measure
Make it an offense to use a firearm whiles under the influence of certain drugs including alcohol
A limit on the physical possession of the number of ammo held by a persons. To clarify - there is no limit to how much ammo which can be owned, just physically carrying on ones person.

Okay...I've read most of this thread and the conclusion I've come up with is: You are overthinking this issue.

Regardless all the spin, psycho-babble and what-not blathered by various people, the 2nd Amendment issue is quite simple. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." This mean the government cannot enact any laws that infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Plain and simple.

All of these laws that you listed in your post...laws that you think are okay...infringe on the right of people to keep and bear arms and are forbidden by the 2nd Amendment. That's it...Period...End of story.

Except, of course, that our Supreme Court has said it's okay to infringe on that right...even though it's a violation of the 2nd Amendment...for various reasons. All that means is that the Court is not always correct. Sometimes it makes rulings that contradict the Constitution. Our Supreme Court screwed up in regard to this subject and the result is gun control advocates keep trying to find ways to violate the 2nd Amendment that the Court will let them get away with.
 
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You really are trying to pack 10 pounds in a five pound bag with this thread.

I will address the points you make here but you need to limit your scope. The issues can get complicated and would take more than one thread to cover.
Mentally ill people aren't legally permitted to posses firearms. This is from the BATF Form 4473 that a person has to fill out before they purchase a firearm.
View attachment 67196126

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to give the people the power to change the government if it becomes a tyranny. If one is to fight with the government they would have to equip themselves with weapons comparable to the government. This is what makes the "assault weapons ban" so offensive to the Constitution.

The Constitution gives us the right to "keep and bear arms". A person can't bear a cannon or a nuclear weapon. It would seem ludicrous that I even have to use the "nuclear weapon" example except we get that question all the time.

No Fly lists.... That is one of those propositions that sounds good until one looks at the Constitution and the realities of how a person can find themselves on the no fly list. The government won't release the reasons that a person is put on the no fly list. A person doesn't know they are on the no fly list until they try to fly. The Constitution says that we will get "due process". A judge will hear a case and rule on it. The person gets a chance to rebut it. That isn't the case with the no fly list. A person would just lose a Constitutional right because of a web site they looked at or some anonymous tip to the Department of Homeland Security. That would rob the person of due process and their right to keep and bear arms.

You're first few line about me are definitely true.

I won't reply to every comment you've done but I have read them all.

Thanks for all the info I'll definitely read them later (and believe I will ^^)

I don't disagree with much of what you've said. Probably just about the tyranny part. Not that this is why the second was written, just that I don't think it's the reason it would be needed anymore. However, I understand that most people on here would disagree with me on that, so no sweat, it's probably a topic for a new thread

And thanks for your comments
 
Okay...I've read most of this thread and the conclusion I've come up with is: You are overthinking this issue.

Regardless all the spin, psycho-babble and what-not blathered by various people, the 2nd Amendment issue is quite simple. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." This mean the government cannot enact any laws that infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Plain and simple.

All of these laws that you listed in your post...laws that you think are okay...infringe on the right of people to keep and bear arms and are forbidden by the 2nd Amendment. That's it...Period...End of story.

Except, of course, that our Supreme Court has said it's okay to infringe on that right...even though it's a violation of the 2nd Amendment...for various reasons. All that means is that the Court is not always correct. Sometimes it makes rulings that contradict the Constitution. Our Supreme Court screwed up in regard to this subject and the result is gun control advocates keep trying to find ways to violate the 2nd Amendment that the Court will let them get away with.

Yes I do agree with you on how, at least in theory, there shouldn't be any limits on the people to bear arms. And I also realise that my suggestions at the end would fly in the face of the constitution, but it was fun to write so meh.

but you're right, I am over thinking it, it's just my nature I guess haha
 
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