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2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield [W:25]

American

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http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...seek-to-take-gunmakers-liability-shield/?_r=0

With little path for significant gun control legislation this year, two Democrats are pursuing another uphill battle that they hope will have more resonance: removing gunmakers’ protection from liability in cases of gun violence.

Representative Adam B. Schiff, Democrat of California, and Senator Richard Blumenthal, Democrat of Connecticut, are circulating a bill that would repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which was passed by Congress in 2005 and which for the most part shields gun manufacturers from liability after gun crimes. The law has been a feature on the campaign trail as well, as Hillary Clinton has criticized Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont over his vote for the bill.

The goal of the law, its supporters said, was to protect the gun industry from frivolous lawsuits. One unintended consequence, Mr. Schiff said, was that so-called straw purchasers, or traffickers who buy guns and sell them to people who cannot pass a background check, have also ended up protected. (Mr. Sanders has said he is for closing this loophole.)
I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.

Good luck with that!

(It does not exist, because that is not what the law in question does. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005 protects gun manufactures from lawsuits resulting from people using guns to commit crimes. That is about it.)
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

Good luck with that!

(It does not exist, because that is not what the law in question does. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005 protects gun manufactures from lawsuits resulting from people using guns to commit crimes. That is about it.)

Apparently two Democrats think it does more than that.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...seek-to-take-gunmakers-liability-shield/?_r=0


I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.

Don't know about shielded but definitely not being prosecuted. Most criminals in Chicago get their guns through straw purchases.

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.

According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...seek-to-take-gunmakers-liability-shield/?_r=0

I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.

Good luck with that!

(It does not exist, because that is not what the law in question does. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005 protects gun manufactures from lawsuits resulting from people using guns to commit crimes. That is about it.)

So here is the wiki on the PLCAA

The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) is a United States law which protects firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable when crimes have been committed with their products. However, both manufacturers and dealers can still be held liable for damages resulting from defective products, breach of contract, criminal misconduct, and other actions for which they are directly responsible in much the same manner that any U.S. based manufacturer of consumer products are held responsible. They may also be held liable for negligence when they have reason to know a gun is intended for use in a crime.

Now, the fact the question raised by American - whether straw purchasers and traffickers are shielded by this law - is a complex question. As noted, there are many instances in which liability is not protected and thus, if a straw purchaser knowingly buys a gun for someone that will commit a crime, then they are not shielded by this law. However, the law does provide additional protections by generally providing protections to these individuals, absent certain exceptions.

Here is a link to an article wherein the gun store was sued after a firearm was sold to someone that left $200 on the table and walked out with a rifle without completing the paperwork or undergoing a background check. The gun was then used, two days later, to kill someone else by the purchaser. The Jury, acting under instructions from this law, found the gun store seller not liable.

Jury says Rayco Sales wasn?t liable for Simone Kim?s murder

TL;DR: Yes, this law provides a shield for straw purchasers and traffickers. It is not a perfect shield and there are some holes that provide litigants potential avenues, but they can be difficult to fulfill and that aspect probably colors and discourages potential lawsuits for otherwise valid situations..
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...seek-to-take-gunmakers-liability-shield/?_r=0


I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.

it just shows what I have always said

Bannite assholes in office are about killing lawful gun ownership not ending violent crime

gun owners, gun makers and the NRA don't generally support leftwing scum bags like those politicians

the people who enable and support our street criminals are far more likely to be their constituents than the management at Bushmaster arms
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

So here is the wiki on the PLCAA



Now, the fact the question raised by American - whether straw purchasers and traffickers are shielded by this law - is a complex question. As noted, there are many instances in which liability is not protected and thus, if a straw purchaser knowingly buys a gun for someone that will commit a crime, then they are not shielded by this law. However, the law does provide additional protections by generally providing protections to these individuals, absent certain exceptions.

Here is a link to an article wherein the gun store was sued after a firearm was sold to someone that left $200 on the table and walked out with a rifle without completing the paperwork or undergoing a background check. The gun was then used, two days later, to kill someone else by the purchaser. The Jury, acting under instructions from this law, found the gun store seller not liable.

Jury says Rayco Sales wasn?t liable for Simone Kim?s murder

TL;DR: Yes, this law provides a shield for straw purchasers and traffickers. It is not a perfect shield and there are some holes that provide litigants potential avenues, but they can be difficult to fulfill and that aspect probably colors and discourages potential lawsuits for otherwise valid situations..

that is clearly untruthful since straw purchases and traffickers are not-in any way-less liable for their crimes
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

that is clearly untruthful since straw purchases and traffickers are not-in any way-less liable for their crimes

"If you have to use clearly, then the argument is probably not that clear."

- Professor Anne Dupre, Law Professor at the University of Georgia School of Law and former clerk to Supreme Court Justice Blackmon.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

"If you have to use clearly, then the argument is probably not that clear."

- Professor Anne Dupre, Law Professor at the University of Georgia School of Law and former clerk to Supreme Court Justice Blackmon.

who is she-a law professor at a second string Law school

sorry-that appeal to authority is worthless

and I am correct-the shield applies to manufacturers and dealers.

Fail you have
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

Don't know about shielded but definitely not being prosecuted. Most criminals in Chicago get their guns through straw purchases.

frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

They aren't prosecuted because it isn't worth the time of the cops who are too busy dealing with drugs and catching the murderers. It is ridiculous. Do local cops even try to go after those guys? They probably don't have the jurisdiction.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

who is she-a law professor at a second string Law school

sorry-that appeal to authority is worthless

and I am correct-the shield applies to manufacturers and dealers.

Fail you have

A top 30 nationally ranked school of law. A very respected and currently deceased professor.

And I was not appealing to her as an authority, just to her saying that is relevant to the amount of "evidence" you provided for your claim than and now.

The Law does apply to dealers. A straw-purchaser and/or trafficker can be described as a dealer, depending on the circumstances of the given situation.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

A top 30 nationally ranked school of law. A very respected and currently deceased professor.

And I was not appealing to her as an authority, just to her saying that is relevant to the amount of "evidence" you provided for your claim.

actually my argument is undeniable. Top 30? whatever. Not exactly say Stanford
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

actually my argument is undeniable. Top 30? whatever. Not exactly say Stanford

And you went to Stanford? Or any law school?

The Law does apply to dealers. A straw-purchaser and/or trafficker can be described as a dealer, depending on the circumstances of the given situation.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

And you went to Stanford? Or any law school?

The Law does apply to dealers. A straw-purchaser and/or trafficker can be described as a dealer, depending on the circumstances of the given situation.

The law is like many others in that it always protects sellers no matter how unscrupulous they are. You see the rule is that guns are harmless and only the shooters are responsible EVER. It is good for business and the gun business is good. The more guns that are confiscated from criminals the more they sell. It's simple math and the main reason police have given up keeping guns out of the bad guys hands.
 
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Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

And you went to Stanford? Or any law school?

The Law does apply to dealers. A straw-purchaser and/or trafficker can be described as a dealer, depending on the circumstances of the given situation.

stanford was the last school whose acceptance of me I turned down
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

The law is like many others in that it always protects sellers no matter how unscrupulous they are. You see the rule is that guns are harmless and only the shooters are responsible EVER. It is good for business and the gun business is good. The more guns that are confiscated from criminals the more they sell. It's simple math and the main reason police have given up keeping guns out of the bad guys hands.

you are not being truthful. The law shields sellers but not ones who engage in illegal activities. the rest of your argument is twaddle
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

that is clearly untruthful since straw purchases and traffickers are not-in any way-less liable for their crimes

If what he said is true, then I think the judge screwed up.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

The law is like many others in that it always protects sellers no matter how unscrupulous they are. You see the rule is that guns are harmless and only the shooters are responsible EVER. It is good for business and the gun business is good. The more guns that are confiscated from criminals the more they sell. It's simple math and the main reason police have given up keeping guns out of the bad guys hands.

Unless a very young minor who gets hold of a gun...how do you ever blame *anyone* besides the shooter for a shooting?
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...seek-to-take-gunmakers-liability-shield/?_r=0

I want to see proof that these straw purchasers and traffickers are being shielded by this law.

To my understanding, straw purchasing is illegal and not a legitimate sale and thus they are not a dealer....AND a seller in a straw purchase is not a "manufacturer"...so I'd really love to have a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE of how this supposed "consequence" actually occurs.

There has been a clear desire and want to bring forth litigation, that with any other type of manufacturer would be considered clearly frivolous and tossed out and thus is never even THOUGHT to be brought forward in a substantive way, that is aimed to simply cripple and hamper the gun industry through legal fees. There is absolutely ZERO reason for a manufacturer to be held liable for what someone who purchases their product does with it. If there is some sort of malfunction or defect, that is a separate issue and of course a manufacturer should be liable then, but that's not what this is talking about
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

To my understanding, straw purchasing is illegal and not a legitimate sale and thus they are not a dealer....AND a seller in a straw purchase is not a "manufacturer"...so I'd really love to have a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE of how this supposed "consequence" actually occurs.

There has been a clear desire and want to bring forth litigation, that with any other type of manufacturer would be considered clearly frivolous and tossed out and thus is never even THOUGHT to be brought forward in a substantive way, that is aimed to simply cripple and hamper the gun industry through legal fees. There is absolutely ZERO reason for a manufacturer to be held liable for what someone who purchases their product does with it. If there is some sort of malfunction or defect, that is a separate issue and of course a manufacturer should be liable then, but that's not what this is talking about

I agree. I see a comparison to the car industry. *As long as the product works as designed.* In other words, when cars malfunction, then injured parties have recourse.

So if a gun malfunctioned, that, IMO, is a separate issue and there should be no liablity for a manufacturer f the product works properly.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield


Sorry, I did read as opposed to taking your words for it, and what you described is an amazingly slanted and dishonest one sided presentation of what occurred in that case.

No such "Sale" occurred. What you're speaking of is THEFT. Typically one does not call the police to report a "sale" of a firearm.

Someone took a gun from his store, without the permission and or a desire for such to occur on the part of the owner given the fact the owner reported it to police, and then proceeded to use it in a crime.

Had the shop owner not immediately reported this incident to police, I could understand finding him liable due to negligence. Had there been some compelling evidence that the shop owner had arranged a deal with this gentleman that he could leave $200 and take the rifle, I would say that it would be reasonable to find him liable.

But what you're looking at here is theft, even if the thief attempted to leave behind money. He took an item from an individuals store front without permission or authority to do so. A shop keeper is not responsible for someone stealing an item from their shop and using it for nefarious reasons.

The jury ABSOLUTELY acted appropriately here, and if a case like this is the poster child for why this legislation supposedly needs to be revoked then it does a great job in further convincing me that it's important legislation to stay on the books.
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

And you went to Stanford? Or any law school?

The Law does apply to dealers. A straw-purchaser and/or trafficker can be described as a dealer, depending on the circumstances of the given situation.

Youre speaking to a yale grad...
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

Youre speaking to a yale grad...

Turtledude went to Yale Law School?
 
Re: 2 Democrats seeks to take gunmakers' liability shield

Turtledude went to Yale Law School?

yes. That being said...

Moderator's Warning:
This thread isn't about individual posters. Let's stick to the topic rather than dick measuring contests about various law schools. Want to have that kind of conversation, take it to the basement, the tavern, or PM's depending on the style in which you want to have such discussions.
 
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